Beer always changes flavor within a day of kegging

[bradleypariah]

Are you purging your keg prior to transfer? Without active yeast you could picking up some o2 if the keg is not purged prior to transfer.

No, because I'm transferring via a siphon hose. The keg's top is off, so the act of completely purging would be a little overboard. I've had people bite my head off on here for claiming that CO2 will rest as a bed in the bottom of a keg. I still believe cold gas will sit on the bottom for at least 10-20 minutes before completely dissipating, so I merely run the gas through the primary vessel while the wand is above the surface of the beer for several seconds.

In theory, that cold gas coming out the siphon tube into the keg should try to settle on the bottom of the keg first, simply because it's cold. After running the CO2 for several seconds, then I push the siphon wand into the beer. I was told by my LHBS owner that this would mean the beer is flowing down a siphon/hose that has been cleared of oxygen, and when the beer lands into the keg, it should have several inches of CO2 resting on top of it as the keg fills.

Considering that a lot of people say they don't even worry about oxygen, and they just auto-siphon with gravity right from an open bucket, with no ill effects, I feel like my steps are pretty good, if not possibly over the top. I could be wrong. I definitely don't mean to argue. I just want to get to the bottom of this.

 

[Trail]

I hate to add to the clamor, but man, I do exactly the same thing you do and I've never had any problems. Hell, the last keg I filled, I purged it (once, not nearly enough to remove all O2) then siphoned into it, slowly with a 3/16ths siphon. Plenty of time for air to get in. Then I closed the keg, kicked the pressure up, and did the roll-and-shake method to speed up the carbonation.

My stout got carbolic bite real bad, but a week later it was perfect. I was brewing a lot of stuff at the time so it took me almost three months to finish it, and there wasn't any hint of oxidation. Even after I shook it up with a headspace full of O2.

I see it this way: if it was that easy to ruin beer, humans would be far too stupid to figure out how to brew it.

 

[bradleypariah]

I agree with what previous posters have said.

http://www.mtangelor.org/general/page/public-works

Second paragraph on this page states they use a chlorination system.

The plot thickens! I called Public Works, and the chlorination system is for waste water only. They don't use anything to treat our water. Nothing. It is deep well water.
The head of public works said there are the following minerals in our water: fluoride, iron, manganese, sodium, calcium.
The sodium is 40ppm, and the fluoride is 0.3ppm.
http://www.mtangelor.org/sites/defa...eral/page/1354/mt_angelcity_2015_revision.pdf

Would any of these make beer taste medicinal?

Although I agree that the water is most likely the culprit, he listed using LME in his recipe. Perhaps he is sensitive to "extract twang". I know I can tell a difference.

As it so happens, I have recently dumped some coin to convert to all-grain. My last few toys are literally in the mail right now. I have everything I need to make a SMaSH IPA.
If all of my beers for six years always tasted weird to me because it turns out I dislike extract, that'd be quite interesting.

 

[bradleypariah]

The head of public works said there are the following minerals in our water: fluoride, iron, manganese, sodium, calcium.

Would any of these make beer taste medicinal?

Okay, John Palmer already answered this:
http://howtobrew.com/book/section-1/water-for-extract-brewing/home-water-treatment

I guess it could be iron and manganese. Does anyone have first hand experience to what off-flavors these give? Could these be my culprit?

 

[203PH]

Although I agree that the water is most likely the culprit, he listed using LME in his recipe. Perhaps he is sensitive to "extract twang". I know I can tell a difference.

Have to agree with this. My first batch was extract. Second and 3rd batches were "partial" extract batches. My buddy would always saw it was good, but there was a twang he could taste. Went to all grain, he never uttered that word again.

 

[TheMadKing]

I still really think OP is just noticing the normal changes of conditioning and is tasting too often to appreciate the finished beer. Beer always changes in the keg, for everyone and it gets better with time (usually)

 

[bradleypariah]

I still really think OP is just noticing the normal changes of conditioning and is tasting too often to appreciate the finished beer. Beer always changes in the keg, for everyone and it gets better with time (usually)

It's possible. It once again tastes better today than any day before. It's been in the keg for eight days now. Still has an off-flavor to me, though.

 

[day_trippr]

Pick one...

 

[leesmith]

The plot thickens! I called Public Works, and the chlorination system is for waste water only. They don't use anything to treat our water. Nothing. It is deep well water.
The head of public works said there are the following minerals in our water: fluoride, iron, manganese, sodium, calcium.
The sodium is 40ppm, and the fluoride is 0.3ppm.
http://www.mtangelor.org/sites/defa...eral/page/1354/mt_angelcity_2015_revision.pdf

Would any of these make beer taste medicinal?



As it so happens, I have recently dumped some coin to convert to all-grain. My last few toys are literally in the mail right now. I have everything I need to make a SMaSH IPA.
If all of my beers for six years always tasted weird to me because it turns out I dislike extract, that'd be quite interesting.

I don't know a lot about public water supplies. But the information on their website states that they operate, "...three large wells with chlorination injection systems....20 miles of main water lines run underground under the city. Those lines as well as the customer service lines are constantly being maintained." Maintained to me would involve sanitizing the pipes by putting a sanitizer in the water. The next paragraph then goes into detail about the way the waste water is treated.

The water itself may come from a good source and require no chlorination at the source but they are sending water through miles of underground pipe for people to drink. Hard to believe it would not require some preventative measures in order to insure the water is safe for drinking.

If it was me, I would test the water or not use it.

Now that your getting into all grain, its important to know your water. You'll need to at least adjust for the mash ph and without knowing the ion content of your water you'll be shooting blindly.

This is what you need to be concerned with as far as your water goes:
Calcium, Magnesium, Sodium, Chloride, Sulfate, Alkalinity, Bicarbonate, pH. Anything else could be detrimental to the beer.

Water high in iron and manganese is not good for brewing and could lead to off flavors. Also...lower sodium content is better...you could always add more if the style calls for it.

You will need to know the ph and the residual alkalinity of the water in order to calculate the acid addition you'll need for mashing.

This all may be too much info...and I don't understand it that well at times but it's important to know your existing water and then go from there.

A good link for much more detail on brewing water:
https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/water-knowledge

Once I began using a source of water that I knew how to work with my beers improved considerably. While I knew my tap water had chlorine in it and treated for it there were just some beers that didn't come out good even after treating for chlorine. And those were the beers I wanted to brew; light colored hoppy beers. My existing water and the ions in it were not right for the style. And along the way my recipe development and process improved also in order to produce the beers I wanted.

 

[bradleypariah]

Pick one...

I guess I would say chemical > petroleum > kerosene/plastic.

It's very faint, but if I tried to sell it at a grocery store, it wouldn't fly.
This beer has eight ounces of hops, plus it was aged with gin-soaked oak chips, so it does quite a good job at masking this flavor. My amber ales and my dark ales, not so much.

I even made a pumpkin beer last winter. It had it too. They always do, and it lasts for the entirety of the keg, which is sometimes over a month.

the information on their website states that they operate, "...three large wells with chlorination injection systems [...] This all may be too much info...and I don't understand it that well at times but it's important to know your existing water and then go from there.

I live in a really small town. We don't even have a grocery store. City Hall has two employees. When I called public works, the man in charge is the one who answered the phone. He told me specifically that the chlorine treatment systems were for the waste water only. He said they have to chlorinate it, and de-chlorinate it before returning it to the nearby river. Our water comes directly from a well, and it's very hard. The kind that leaves calcium rings on your toilet after only a week. I realize this doesn't speak well about my water, but I experienced the same flavors in two previous houses in different states that did not have such water.
I'm going to pay for a water test. Hopefully someone on here will be able to prescribe a solution. I'm keeping my eye on the "extract twang" possibility too.

 

[dyqik]

I guess I would say chemical > petroleum > kerosene/plastic.

It's very faint, but if I tried to sell it at a grocery store, it wouldn't fly.
This beer has eight ounces of hops, plus it was aged with gin-soaked oak chips, so it does quite a good job at masking this flavor. My amber ales and my dark ales, not so much.

That's how I'd describe the off-taste due to chlorine, the one time I had it.

 

[leesmith]

I guess I would say chemical > petroleum > kerosene/plastic.



It's very faint, but if I tried to sell it at a grocery store, it wouldn't fly.

This beer has eight ounces of hops, plus it was aged with gin-soaked oak chips, so it does quite a good job at masking this flavor. My amber ales and my dark ales, not so much.



I even made a pumpkin beer last winter. It had it too. They always do, and it lasts for the entirety of the keg, which is sometimes over a month.







I live in a really small town. We don't even have a grocery store. City Hall has two employees. When I called public works, the man in charge is the one who answered the phone. He told me specifically that the chlorine treatment systems were for the waste water only. He said they have to chlorinate it, and de-chlorinate it before returning it to the nearby river. Our water comes directly from a well, and it's very hard. The kind that leaves calcium rings on your toilet after only a week. I realize this doesn't speak well about my water, but I experienced the same flavors in two previous houses in different states that did not have such water.

I'm going to pay for a water test. Hopefully someone on here will be able to prescribe a solution. I'm keeping my eye on the "extract twang" possibility too.

Once you know the make up of your water you will be able to determine what to do.

Either way this is worth the effort. Good luck. Hope to see some updates once you get things figured out.

I used a friends test kit and determined my water was just too off to work with. I tested another friends well water who had said I could get water at his house and his was too off and I'd have to cut it with distilled water in order to use it. Too much hassle. I got an RO system after having used bottled water for a couple years. The RO system will pay for itself in about a year and I have a blank slate to start with as far as my water goes.

 

[bradleypariah]

I'm wondering if I would be doing this forum a disservice if I added campden to my mash water. If I change two variables on my next brew day (going all grain and treating the water), we won't know if it was the campden solving the problem, or if I was sensitive to extract twang.

If I changed both of those variables and it was still there, further variables to look into would be the manganese, calcium, and/or iron.

 

[dyqik]

I'm wondering if I would be doing this forum a disservice if I added campden to my mash water. If I change two variables on my next brew day (going all grain and treating the water), we won't know if it was the campden solving the problem, or if I was sensitive to extract twang.

If I changed both of those variables and it was still there, further variables to look into would be the manganese, calcium, and/or iron.

Use the Campden. You can always go back and do an extract batch with Campden sometime when you don't have enough time for an all-grain batch. Meanwhile, you decrease your chances of wasting money on/having to drink a bad batch of beer.

 

[bradleypariah]

All this sounds like is you're getting co2 bite from trying the beer too soon [...] The proper name is "Carbonic Bite"

I hate to add to the clamor, but man, I do exactly the same thing you do and I've never had any problems. [...] My stout got carbolic bite real bad, but a week later it was perfect.

I still really think OP is just noticing the normal changes of conditioning and is tasting too often to appreciate the finished beer. Beer always changes in the keg, for everyone and it gets better with time (usually)

DING DING DINGGG!!!

We have a winner. I still have not made my first all-grain batch, nor have I made a beer with treated water. This is my last extract batch I had in the basement. It's been sitting down there for about a month. I promised myself not to taste it immediately after kegging.

Since I recently reported that my previous beer was growing on me after 96 hours, I waited a full four days after kegging to try this batch. No sneaking sips, no nothing. I did let some sediment blow off yesterday, and I smelled the glass, but I poured it down the drain.

Dudes, I'm an idiot. I effing love this beer. I'm not saying that drunkenly; I'm only a couple sips in. This is nearly the exact same recipe as the previous beer, only with added Willamette hops, and there's no gin-soaked oak in this one. This beer has no noticeable trace of the flavor trend I've been experiencing ever since I started kegging 2-3 years ago. If I bought this beer from the grocer, I'd be pleased as punch.

I feel super dumb. I just needed patience on the last step. I'm good at not kegging too early, I just have seen so much content out there about burst carbing, I thought it was okay to do. Turns out I'm really sensitive to it, and I was killing my kegs (with help of course) before a lot of them ever had a chance to absorb the CO2 and get good.

I still bought campden and gypsum, and I have everything I need (minus needing one replacement wall for my grain hopper) for my first all-grain batch, which will hopefully be boiled this weekend. Hopefully I'll come up with a brand new batch of questions, and I'll be quite thankful this forum is here.

Thank you all so much for weighing in with your thoughts. Overcoming this one simple, stupid thing has given me a world of confidence. Cheers!

 

[Revvy]

Yeah, my experience, especially with new brewers, is that the simplest answer is usually right... and usually the answer is one of the many forms of green beer.... I've been answering brewers questions for over a decade... and most of them are just variations of the same theme.. lack of patience, lack of letting the beer come into it's own.

People want to over analyze, over complicate, put forward their "pet" answers which may have been valid for them, BUT often in my experience the clue and the answer are often right within the original post. Carbolic bite is one of the most common things that come up here... whether it's a first time brewer sticking his nose over the arilock of their first batch and panicking at the "sour, metallic" smell their smelling, to leaning into their keezer and almost fainting, to what you described.... this ain't the first rodeo with this issue.

Glad it worked out.

 

[Revvy]

Oh and don't stop using campden, it's one of the best things we can do as a brewer, especially if we DON'T want to mess with using RO water and playing with water chemistry... it's cheap, easy to do, and can't hurt. So use it.

 

[zifferent]

Ok, everyone has had their pet problem and solution aired and here's one that is different. Use star san pre-ferment and iodophor post-ferment.

Star San has a soda-like phosphoric acid flavor that is hard to shake post-ferment, but yeast love pre-ferment. Iodine flavor is minimal as it dissipates over time, and may come off as a metallic flavor, but I haven't noticed it.

Seriously, a no-rinse formula of iodophor is the way to go.

 

[leesmith]

DING DING DINGGG!!!



We have a winner. I still have not made my first all-grain batch, nor have I made a beer with treated water. This is my last extract batch I had in the basement. It's been sitting down there for about a month. I promised myself not to taste it immediately after kegging.



Since I recently reported that my previous beer was growing on me after 96 hours, I waited a full four days after kegging to try this batch. No sneaking sips, no nothing. I did let some sediment blow off yesterday, and I smelled the glass, but I poured it down the drain.



Dudes, I'm an idiot. I effing love this beer. I'm not saying that drunkenly; I'm only a couple sips in. This is nearly the exact same recipe as the previous beer, only with added Willamette hops, and there's no gin-soaked oak in this one. This beer has no noticeable trace of the flavor trend I've been experiencing ever since I started kegging 2-3 years ago. If I bought this beer from the grocer, I'd be pleased as punch.



I feel super dumb. I just needed patience on the last step. I'm good at not kegging too early, I just have seen so much content out there about burst carbing, I thought it was okay to do. Turns out I'm really sensitive to it, and I was killing my kegs (with help of course) before a lot of them ever had a chance to absorb the CO2 and get good.



I still bought campden and gypsum, and I have everything I need (minus needing one replacement wall for my grain hopper) for my first all-grain batch, which will hopefully be boiled this weekend. Hopefully I'll come up with a brand new batch of questions, and I'll be quite thankful this forum is here.



Thank you all so much for weighing in with your thoughts. Overcoming this one simple, stupid thing has given me a world of confidence. Cheers!

Would like to hear some updates if you have brewed again?
Any changes?

 

[Trail]

Ok, everyone has had their pet problem and solution aired and here's one that is different. Use star san pre-ferment and iodophor post-ferment.

Star San has a soda-like phosphoric acid flavor that is hard to shake post-ferment, but yeast love pre-ferment. Iodine flavor is minimal as it dissipates over time, and may come off as a metallic flavor, but I haven't noticed it.

Seriously, a no-rinse formula of iodophor is the way to go.

Oh, that's interesting. So you'd say for final sanitization of a keg, iodophor's the way to go?

How long does it taste the flavor to dissipate? Will it dissipate if you pour the beer in and pressurize before it goes?

 

[TheMadKing]

Oh, that's interesting. So you'd say for final sanitization of a keg, iodophor's the way to go?



How long does it taste the flavor to dissipate? Will it dissipate if you pour the beer in and pressurize before it goes?

Star san has virtually no flavor. If you can taste it in your final brew, then you're not using it right.

 

[bradleypariah]

Would like to hear some updates if you have brewed again?
Any changes?

I am brewing the Blackberry Ale recipe I posted in another thread. Haven't tasted it yet. Haven't added the fruit. Perhaps tonight?

More news in about a week, I would say.

 

[foles]

Not sure if the OP will read this a few months later. I had a similar problem that plagued me for 6 years. 2 problems I finally identified were playing off against each other, making it hard to pinpoint.
1) Fermentation temp - sticking to outside of fermenter wasn't accurate for me. Beers improved out of sight with a thermowell. Don't believe what people say about taping it on, too risky. Measure the beer temp. I was getting killed by pitching after the final part of the chill in the fridge. Beer itself was far too warm. Then again during high krausen.
2) Beer where I was adding ~4-5ml/gallon of 88% lactic was losing all beer flavour.

 

[bradleypariah]

I still believe it was a metallic/sodium-like characteristic that was imparted by the CO2. Until CO2 is absorbed properly, the beer just tastes off, IMO.

I consider this thread solved, but I look forward to learning more about other off-flavors in the near future.

My home brew club is planning to buy an "off-flavor kit". I'd never heard of such a thing. Apparently they're a little expensive, so we're going to share the cost.
We always meet at a local microbrewery, so we're going to order up a bunch of pints of a simple ale, then split them up into multiple taster glasses, and add the off-flavors to each one.
I guess you just taste the normal beer once, then add a flavor, taste it, and then read what causes it.
The hope is that you will think, "I've taste that off-flavor before! What is that?!", then you read the card and find out what part of your process needs adjustment.



If anyone cares about the blackberry ale, it was delicious, but not right away. After kegging, I thought it lost some sweetness, so I added a gallon of pure apple cider from a local farm to the keg, then we bottled it in bombers.
I opened a bottle every four days or so, and once the carbonation:sweetness ratio was nice (about two weeks), I pasteurized the bottles. My brother-in-law and I liked it enough that we're going to do it exactly the same way next blackberry season.

 

[Revvy]

My home brew club is planning to buy an "off-flavor kit". I'd never heard of such a thing. Apparently they're a little expensive, so we're going to share the cost.
We always meet at a local microbrewery, so we're going to order up a bunch of pints of a simple ale, then split them up into multiple taster glasses, and add the off-flavors to each one.
I guess you just taste the normal beer once, then add a flavor, taste it, and then read what causes it.
The hope is that you will think, "I've taste that off-flavor before! What is that?!", then you read the card and find out what part of your process needs adjustment.

it's one of the most valuable thinks you can do for yourself, to actually taste in a controlled environment and learn what the tastes actually are instead of reading about it.

 

[bradleypariah]

I thought it might be! Have you ever bought one of those kits, Revvy?

 

[Ashevillain]

Cheaper alternative, go to a bar that doesn't take care of their lines. You will find it very educational. The off flavor "spiked" drinks do help, but they do not taste exactly like a beer where the off flavors occurred naturally, just a heads up. Definitely gets you in the ballpark and might help distinguish between similarish flavors like DMS and diacetyl. (Diacetyl tastes like candy corn to me). The spike for infections only covers acetobacter, which is probably the most obvious but certainly not the only unexpected microbe causing off flavors.

 

[gnef]

I thought it might be! Have you ever bought one of those kits, Revvy?

Our club does this at least once a year, sometimes twice. It helps to calibrate your palate to specific flavors. If you are doing the full kit, split it into two days, as it will tax your sensitivity if you try to do too many all together. It helps to organize it based on brewing problems and then fermentation problems.

The great thing about the kits is that it helps you isolate particular flavors at reasonable concentration levels. Everyone tastes things slightly different, so once you know what it is you are tasting, you can then memorize that flavor and aroma as that particular compound and then figure out the problems from there.