Beating a dead horse..secondary or not?

[sudsmcgee]

OP: With regards to your comparison to Revvy's pictures, perhaps you missed the part where he intentionally stirs up the yeast so that there is plenty of it in the bottles for conditioning. So in other words, that comparison is useless.

 

[DannPM]

Why do people think a secondary makes a beer clearer? You think the yeast are like "it's crowded down there bro, I'm going to wait till secondary to flocculate" no.

Look at your primary on day 10. The top is much clearer than the bottom half. When you rack to a secondary you impede the progress of it clearing by mixing it all up again.

I'm not even going to address the off the myth about off flavors, just like I'm not going to argue with anyone about gravity. Fools at a distance thing.

If you secondary, there is no harm, just honestly say it is because of how you were taught, or because you are superstitious, or because you had a bad anecdotal experience from not using a secondary that is contrary to what is a generally accepted rule among expert home brewers. What is bs is people thinking racking to a secondary vessel does anything positive to it, because it doesn't.

 

[BierMuncher]

Why do people think a secondary makes a beer clearer? You think the yeast are like "it's crowded down there bro, I'm going to wait till secondary to flocculate" no.

Look at your primary on day 10. The top is much clearer than the bottom half. When you rack to a secondary you impede the progress of it clearing by mixing it all up again.

I'm not even going to address the off the myth about off flavors, just like I'm not going to argue with anyone about gravity. Fools at a distance thing.

If you secondary, there is no harm, just honestly say it is because of how you were taught, or because you are superstitious, or because you had a bad anecdotal experience from not using a secondary that is contrary to what is a generally accepted rule among expert home brewers. What is bs is people thinking racking to a secondary vessel does anything positive to it, because it doesn't.

Well there it is. I guess we can all go home now that THAT is settled.

 

[Yooper]

It is only a waste of time for those who like the flavors you get from leaving the beer on a lot of yeast for a long time. Somewhere along the line, that finding that leaving your beers in primary for a longer time WILL NOT HARM YOUR BEER, got twisted into you MUST leave your beer in primary. This is totally inaccurate.

For most of the styles of beers I brew, I do not want these flavors in my beer. Most of my beers are in a keg within 2 weeks where they age (secondary) for a couple more weeks before carbonating.

I guess that is my big gripe with the long primary bandwagon. The truth is that long primaries may not harm the beer at all, and in fact several blind tests have shown that about 1/3 of testers preferred the taste of the longer primary beer than a short primary. (Of course that means that 2/3 didn't).

Leaving the beer in primary for a month preached by a vocal majority around here may not harm the beer in the least, and it should be much clearer by that time. But in a well made beer, it is most certainly not necessary.

I keep my beer in the fermenter for about 10-14 days, depending on my schedule. After that, I may package or dryhop at that point. I may dryhop in the primary, or in the keg, or in the secondary. It depends on my plans for that beer and that fermenter.

I don't think a secondary will magically give you a clearer beer, as there is nothing really going to happen in that bright tank that doesn't happen in the fermenter. But I think that it's fine to do if you want to use your fermenter. Nothing really bad is going to happen if you use a bright tank ("secondary"). But nothing really bad is going to happen if you don't.

Of all of the best brewers I know, and the beers I've sampled from them, none have been in the primary more than about 2-3 weeks.

 

[Yooper]

Look at your primary on day 10. The top is much clearer than the bottom half. When you rack to a secondary you impede the progress of it clearing by mixing it all up again.

I was just going to ignore this and walk away. But as an old winemaker, I feel strongly that ignorance should be addressed.

I would hope that anyone racking their beer would do so by proper methods and not be as incompetent as to "mixing it all up again". My wines are brilliantly clear and are usually racked 5-6 times.

Proper racking will NEVER hurt a beer or wine. Is it always necessary, though? No, it's not always necessary. A beer can clear without being racked, of course. But to imply that racking to a clearing vessel actually impedes clarifying is ridiculous.

 

[3PegBrew]

Yeah....Dann you were on fire up until you said the mixing part. However, I think he is pointing out that beginners don't know how to rack properly?

Granted I don't use secondaries, but I don't protest them.

 

[GySgtLynn]

Who gives a crap... If you like your beer with a longer primary, awesome... I'f you prefer to secondary great... It's a personel choice, do what works for you.

 

[jaynik]

Who knows? I'll taste test some of you guys' brews to see which one worked best! For an argument that is pretty perpetual, this seems to have everyone pretty fired up.

 

[sudsmcgee]

This argument is like the special olympics, even if you win you're still........

 

[samc]

This argument is like the special olympics, even if you win you're still........

Nice post, you are a riot!

 

[bob1852]

This argument is like the special olympics, even if you win you're still........

Everyone can win medals with either a secondary or just a primary?

 

[OHIOSTEVE]

OP: With regards to your comparison to Revvy's pictures, perhaps you missed the part where he intentionally stirs up the yeast so that there is plenty of it in the bottles for conditioning. So in other words, that comparison is useless.

I addressed that

 

[Iqbal624]

This argument is like the special olympics, even if you win you're still........

HAHA

Love it!

 

[DannPM]

Yooper, respectively, I'd like to see anyone rack five gallons without agitating the liquid enough to stir up the yeast from where out had previously descended to in the primary. I don't think you're racking it incorrectly, but if you're racking to a secondary in any manner, you're mixing the contents no matter how well or how gently it is done.

I agree wine and mead do need a secondary (and further vessels beyond) as they both are usually aged in bulk and sit in vessels for many months to years. I'm talking beer.

Jamil and Chris White PhD literally wrote the book on yeast and dispelled the myths about secondaries as a standard procedure in brewing. They have more than the needed credentials to define the best procedure for handling yeast.

Would you question your Sony TV manual? No, they manufactured it, the know what they are talking about. Why would you question Chris White then?

 

[bob1852]

Dann,

Yooper and many others cold crash primaries so the yeast are settled out the same during a 10-14 day primary as they are during a 3-4 week primary.

As most have said. Both ways work.

 

[DannPM]

I agree both ways work. My original and continued argument was not against the use of secondaries or people who use them but rather the myths that get tossed around like they clear beer faster or more effectively, which just aren't true!

 

[bob1852]

I agree both ways work. My original and continued argument was not against the use of secondaries or people who use them but rather the myths that get tossed around like they clear beer faster or more effectively, which just aren't true!

Agreed.

Let's all keep making great beer.

 

[lgilmore]

The biggest advantage to using a secondary is simply less stuff in the beer to bottle. I've done it both ways, both ways are fine, they really are. The difference for me is when I fill the bottling bucket. When using the primary, I have to be really really careful not to suck up yeasty stuff into the bottling bucket. When I use a secondary, I don't worry about the racking to bottling bucket.

At bottling I notice more stuff in the bottling bucket when only using a primary. Considerably more stuff. Also my bottles tend to have that yeast ring on the bottlom. while I know it doesn't hurt the beer, when your sharing with nonbrewers, it's an explaination and a half.

But I agree, do it how you like it. I've done both and when I can or need to I will use a secondary. but it's has more to do with bottling than anything else.

 

[CrystalShip]

I secondary because I brew every two weeks and want to reuse the yeast. I do agree that I don't think it makes beer any more clear than a long primary. Most of the arguments about primaries/secondaries pertaining to beer clarity are irrelevant because after the beer is refrigerated for more than a few days the sediment and yeast drop anyway

 

[smagee]

Perhaps I've treated "no secondary" all wrong; I've always gone primary-only, for about 30 days (including dry hop time, although I'll sometimes shift to secondary for that) directly to keg/bottle. It would seem the argument is for leaving things on the yeast longer, which I admit I've done (out of laziness more than anything else), but don't make it standard practice. I usually find a month to be long enough for the yeast to do all that it plans to.

 

[Calichusetts]

This argument is like the special olympics, even if you win you're still........

I think of this phrase everytime this agrument or "discussion" starts up. Bottom line, sometimes we see both sides of the arguement presented as "facts" or perpetuating myths...my only concern with this is that some things we are telling beginners (on both sides) things that they will take as facts when really its opinions.

Can we close these threads yet or do we have to do this every 48 hours?

 

[eeverwine]

I think of this phrase everytime this agrument or "discussion" starts up. Bottom line, sometimes we see both sides of the arguement presented as "facts" or perpetuating myths...my only concern with this is that some things we are telling beginners (on both sides) things that they will take as facts when really its opinions.

Can we close these threads yet or do we have to do this every 48 hours?

But it's so much FUN! Can't we do it every 24 hours instead? Can we can we can we? :fro:

 

[3PegBrew]

I've never been to the special Olympics. Are they as awesome are the non special Olympics?

 

[Homercidal]

Look at your primary on day 10. The top is much clearer than the bottom half. When you rack to a secondary you impede the progress of it clearing by mixing it all up again.

I get this. The top half of the beer is getting pretty clear by the end of week 2, while the bottom half is cloudier. Even without picking up the sediment on the bottom, when you rack you are re-mixing the cloudier stuff from further down, with the clearer stuff near the top.

I never really thought of that, but it makes sense. Now all of that stuff that was already halfway down the container has to start flocculating all over again!

 

[wildwest450]

I like to ferment in the secondary, then move to the primary after 17 days. It's called a primary because it is of chief importance, and should be the last brewing step. Hell, if carboys weren't so heavy, I would carb and drink out of the primary.

 

[BierMuncher]

I get this. The top half of the beer is getting pretty clear by the end of week 2, while the bottom half is cloudier....

By the end of week 2, I'm racking crystal clear beer to a keg and getting ready to serve...using a secondary that is.