BCS 460 Tell me all about it.

[RonRock]

It sayes zero cross all over the spec sheet, I presume they are zero cross.

Did you read the same spec sheet? I see 2 places where Zero Cross is mentioned.


"Output consists of an SCR AC switch and is
available in zero-cross, random turnon"

"4D 400 Hz Operation
10-50 Amp Models Only
Zero Cross Switching Only
Example: 4D2450
E 24V AC/DC Input
Example: A2450E"


The Crydom SSR that I have is a D2425. Neither of these references say that the D2425 is Zero Crossing.

 

[CodeRage]

Okay, I found a decent article about SSRs. Just from a cursory glance it looks like they are very sensitive to Overloads and can pop. Inductive loads have crazy start currents so be sure to get a one that is rated well over the current needed for the load. 2x Seems to be the rule of thumb.

The other concern is the inductive kick when the field collapses. This will cause the voltage to spike on the load side which could keep an SSR from turning off. Putting an RC Snubber across the load (120 to neutral) will stop it.

Here is a spec sheet for one from redlion.
http://www.redlion-controls.com/Products/Groups/NoiseSuppression/SNUB/Docs/12027.pdf

 

[The Pol]

A lot of SSRs I have seen have internal snubbers...

BUT, still not able to find one that will work for me that states it is NON ZERO CROSS

 

[Bsquared]

Today I hope I will be testing out my BCS to run my HLT and pump. I did a wet run last night with the heating element,(120vac 2000watt) on manual mode and over shot the target temp by 1º. I have crydom 25A SSR's, and am planing on using one to run my march pump to transfer the single infusion, and the sparge. Over the next few months I plan on utilizing more of the BCS.


I let you know if I blow up.

So far my impression of it is the interface is fairly easy to figure out, it is possible to hook it up wireless, and there is an iPhone app to run it as well.

 

[The Pol]

Today I hope I will be testing out my BCS to run my HLT and pump. I did a wet run last night with the heating element,(120vac 2000watt) on manual mode and over shot the target temp by 1º. I have crydom 25A SSR's, and am planing on using one to run my march pump to transfer the single infusion, and the sparge. Over the next few months I plan on utilizing more of the BCS.


I let you know if I blow up.

So far my impression of it is the interface is fairly easy to figure out, it is possible to hook it up wireless, and there is an iPhone app to run it as well.

YES let me know if you have any problems with a standard SSR, what is your SSR model #? MOST are zero cross out there, so I would assume that is what you have. If it works, that is great... I have (2) 25A that I can use.

 

[samc]

Okay, NEW question.

For all you BCS users, how are you controlling your pump ON/OFF with it?

SSR?
Mechanical Relay?
Combination?

You have until 8pm to give me a solution to this apparent problem!

Crydom 2425 SSR with a On/Off/On toggle switch on a panel to allow me to run the pumps without the BCS being involved.

 

[Bsquared]

They are Crydom D24D25, I think I payed $10 each on ebay for them. I only picked them because that seemed to be what most people on the ECC board where using, and they where with in my amperage range. My element maxes out the system at ~18amps.

Hopefully I will get out to the garage and brew in the next few hr's.

 

[The Pol]

They are Crydom D24D25, I think I payed $10 each on ebay for them. I only picked them because that seemed to be what most people on the ECC board where using, and they where with in my amperage range. My element maxes out the system at ~18amps.

Hopefully I will get out to the garage and brew in the next few hr's.

You are my hero...

 

[jfkriege]

Any Crydom relay that is a D24XX series, where XX is your rated load, should have a version that has a '-10'. If it is -10, then it is a random turn on SSR and not zero crossing. So, if you look for a D2410-10, you will get a 10A non-zero-crossing SSR that will fit your needs. Digikey has them in stock.

 

[CodeRage]

I just put a $45 ZERO CROSSING SSR relay on the line for you guys.
As I thought, it drives a march pump just fine. Some one fed you a line so quit your worrying.

 

[The Pol]

I just put a $45 ZERO CROSSING SSR relay on the line for you guys.
As I thought, it drives a march pump just fine. Some one fed you a line so quit your worrying.

You are my hero... I owe you. Next time I am in Fla... I owe you a drink.

 

[Ohio-Ed]

That looks like a viable solution. Thanks for your help.

I ordered the 50amp male last week. I'm thinking of using the 30amp versions to connect/disconnect the elements.

I'll let you know what I think of the 50a.

 

[unholymess]

Here are those boards I was talking about, I had 2 of them.
If there is enough interest/demand I could make a board specifically to work with the BCS. The one on the right is attached to the logic and DI board if your wondering.

Do you have more details on those boards ? I'm starting to layout a couple for my BCS build and would like to see what you did there.

 

[Ohio-Ed]

I just put a $45 ZERO CROSSING SSR relay on the line for you guys.
As I thought, it drives a march pump just fine. Some one fed you a line so quit your worrying.

I just read through a bunch of messages relatd to the zero vs non-zero crossing ssr's... In a nutshell, I think SawDustGuy suggested the zero-crossing woulf run a pump, the problem is related to what happens on the control side when you run an inductive load? Does that make sense? With that in mind, do you think we are ok to use zero crossing ssr's with a BCS to control pumps?

(Just trying to get this down to a level I can understand)

Thanks
Ed

 

[The Pol]

I just read through a bunch of messages relatd to the zero vs non-zero crossing ssr's... In a nutshell, I think SawDustGuy suggested the zero-crossing woulf run a pump, the problem is related to what happens on the control side when you run an inductive load? Does that make sense? With that in mind, do you think we are ok to use zero crossing ssr's with a BCS to control pumps?

(Just trying to get this down to a level I can understand)

Thanks
Ed

There is a dude in this thread brewing with elements and pumps and the BCS on zero crossing SSRs today, so we will see if he explodes into flames.

 

[unholymess]

What? I don't understand why zero crossing would affect the operation of an inductive load. Some one mentioned something about opto isolators. I haven't seen an SSR without an opto on the control line. The ones from auber have optos, unless you got them some where else show me the spec sheet.

I can't find anything for the popular Crydom D2425 - either the series cs or series 1. Both have a model code "P" that is for over-voltage, but nothing about actually being opto'd.

I liked the PDF you posted - where are you getting those ?

 

[Ohio-Ed]

Jumping into something I really don't know a lot about here... but what about a Reed Relay? SWMBO dragged me out this morning and while she was shopping for shoes, I walked into a Radio Shack. I found a 5vdc coil Reed Relay, but it's only rated at .5a 120vac. It was $2.99. Would a 2amp version of this work directly with the BCS?

Ed

 

[The Pol]

Jumping into something I really don't know a lot about here... but what about a Reed Relay? SWMBO dragged me out this morning and while she was shopping for shoes, I walked into a Radio Shack. I found a 5vdc coil Reed Relay, but it's only rated at .5a 120vac. It was $2.99. Would a 2amp version of this work directly with the BCS?

Ed

That may be tight... the March is like 1.2A, and I dont think that includes the startup draw.

 

[The Pol]

This is from ECCSYND on the BN forum...

"We've had success with the Crydom SSRs. D2425 and D2440 have both been used in systems. The BCS-460 has 5VDC outputs, so the 3-32V DC inputs of the Crydom line of D24xx work very well. Also tested Crouzet Gordos G240D25.

Typically, the higher the rated current of the SSR, the more expensive it is. So if you want to save some money for pumps or AC solenoids, you could get by with a 10 amp SSR, like the Crydom D2410."

Doesnt speak of zero crossing, random... nothing...

 

[jfkriege]

The D2410 is a zero crossing relay. The D2410-10 is the random turn on version.

I just chatted with my father in law, who is an EE. He said to just go with the zero crossing at a 10A load for the March pumps since you have them already, it shouldn't make a bit of difference.

 

[Sawdustguy]

Just to set the record straight. It looks as if a regular zero crossing SSR will work just fine. After reading this: http://pewa.panasonic.com/pcsd/tech_info/pdf/semi_eng_ssr2.pdf it seems you would need a large back emf spike to cause a problem. While they do recommend non-zero crossing SSR's for inductive loads, for the size inductive loads we deal with, zero crossing SSR's will work just fine and this was actually tested by Code Rage. I am sorry for the alarm. I am just trying to help.

 

[Bsquared]

Going to start a Brewing cycle right now, but don't think I will actually brew. I think i better do a wet run an get any kinks worked out before I try it with grain, don't feel like experimenting with a 35lb grain bill. I post how the pump works with a crydom D24D25 in about 1hr.

 

[CodeRage]

No worries Sawdust, I appreciate your good intentions. I would think that starting an inductive load at the zero in the wave form would be a good thing. Considering the coil is at it's least resistance at startup. The time period between a half cycle and the time it takes for the coil to load it's field may be very different to, so it may not make a difference between random start and ZC. the back emf would be present regardless of where you stop the wave form, so it's all about the snubber baby. It's all good, you can keep your black voodoo magic RF stuff That stuff makes for headaches greater than the apfelweine variety!

When switching any kind of inductive load you should take the current rating of the relay (it normally is resistive) and halve it. Very important for SSRs because they can not tolerate over currents at all. Mechanicals can however.

This is another reason why I wish the BCS used dry contacts instead of transistor outputs. They can provide a 5v control bias to use as needed (24v would be the best but 12 would suffice).

unholymess, they are 10 amp 12vdc pcb relays. It needs 12vdc for a power supply and uses a darlington array and a pull up resistor on the 0vdc side of the relay coil, the other side of the coil is wired straight to +12. When a +5v signal is read on the input pin of the darlington array and allows current to drain through it, turning on the relay. The Normally Open, Common, and Normally Closed contacts are brought out to the terminal strips. The USB port was used to to program the Logic board it attached to, so it's of no use in the current config.

Oh and there is a snubber diode across the coil to stop the inductive kick.

 

[CodeRage]

Going to start a Brewing cycle right now, but don't think I will actually brew. I think i better do a wet run an get any kinks worked out before I try it with grain, don't feel like experimenting with a 35lb grain bill. I post how the pump works with a crydom D24D25 in about 1hr.

Wise move! I'll bet you do a couple, and when you brew you will wish you had done one more . We've all been there

 

[The Pol]

I appreciate this discussion guys... I learned something and I didnt waste my money on the wrong SSRs...

I have 25A SSRs for my 1.2A pumps, so I feel confident now, thanks!

 

[Bsquared]

Wise move! I'll bet you do a couple, and when you brew you will wish you had done one more . We've all been there

yes I have way too many pots on the fire right now. best to slow it down

Good news, Pump works fine with D24D25 SSR. and my 2000 watt 120VAC heated the strike water from 125 to 174 in 40 min, right on schedule. Though I think I will have to get 220 in the garage to make it a little faster.

 

[The Pol]

yes I have way too many pots on the fire right now. best to slow it down

Good news, Pump works fine with D24D25 SSR. and my 2000 watt 120VAC heated the strike water from 125 to 174 in 40 min, right on schedule. Though I think I will have to get 220 in the garage to make it a little faster.

All good news...

I upgraded my garage 240VAC to 50A so I can run 9000W for heating strike and boiling, to save time.

I can then run the RIMS at 4500W during the mash cycle.

 

[CodeRage]

All good news...

I upgraded my garage 240VAC to 50A so I can run 9000W for heating strike and boiling, to save time.

I can then run the RIMS at 4500W during the mash cycle.

Pol. I am having to use a 4500W element for my RIMS right now. It's all I had laying around and I don't feel like changing it back to 120V. I think it is going to be waaaay to much power for my HEX. I'll let you know.

What kind of hex are using btw?

 

[The Pol]

Pol. I am having to use a 4500W element for my RIMS right now. It's all I had laying around and I don't feel like changing it back to 120V. I think it is going to be waaaay to much power for my HEX. I'll let you know.

What kind of hex are using btw?

I am using a RIMS heater with dual 4500W elements

9000W for water heating
4500W for RIMS recirc

 

[CodeRage]

Something like sawdustguys?