BCS-460 Beta Test

[p4ck37p1mp]

I tripped over this thread today and have become seriously interested in this. This would allow setting mash volume and turning a pump on and then off after strike temp is hit.

Digital Sight Glass

 

[slnies]

I tripped over this thread today and have become seriously interested in this. This would allow setting mash volume and turning a pump on and then off after strike temp is hit.

Digital Sight Glass

Yes it does! In fact that is how mine is set up right now. The first state is heating strike water. The second is enacted be pressing a button after strike temp is achieved. Pressing the button shuts down the pump and the element for dow in. Then you press the button again and the system is completely automatic from this point on. Step mash or infusion mash, it makes no difference. It is that easy. S.

 

[p4ck37p1mp]

Details?! Parts list?! Pics?!

 

[slnies]

Here are some PICs of the brew day on the 10th. I told Adam that I would have them up the monday after, but I have been slacking.

OK, so the first pic is Seabee John standing between his system on the right and mine on the left. The computer on the desk is displaying the interface for the BCS-460. This is what my system looks like in portable mode. Seabee John is going to install a BCS in the future. He was quit taken with the simplicity of the interface and the capabilities of the little black box of brewing. The next pic is Seabee John at Dow in, and the third is JR. or Nicksteck in the forum. He is testing his new system, and also planning on using a BCS on his set up. The last pic is of the host and hostess who we are in debt for putting on the event.

 

[slnies]

Details?! Parts list?! Pics?!

What details would you like? What do you want to do with your system? Give me an answer to these questions and I can give you a good idea of parts and details on how the BCS-460 could be set up to do the job. Your imagination is really your only limit. Don't get me wrong, even the BCS has limits, but when it comes to controlling a brew rig and making operation simple, those limits are very, very few. So dream your system up and let your imagination go. Once you know what you want the rest is easy. Sean.

 

[p4ck37p1mp]

I was interested in the digital sight gauge for a couple of reasons. One would be to pump in strike water to a certain volume, second would be to fly sparge at a certain volume. If I start getting into solenoid valves it can get even more interesting. First task will be to hit mash volume and maintain sparge level. Right now I just use the BCS for temp monitoring as I need to do the electrical to get the SSRs online to control my pumps.

 

[slnies]

I was interested in the digital sight gauge for a couple of reasons. One would be to pump in strike water to a certain volume, second would be to fly sparge at a certain volume. If I start getting into solenoid valves it can get even more interesting. First task will be to hit mash volume and maintain sparge level. Right now I just use the BCS for temp monitoring as I need to do the electrical to get the SSRs online to control my pumps.

Well I will tell you what. I like the idea of a digital sight glass. This idea is not new however. The technology has been around in the industrial sector for a long time. Making it cheap enough for a home brewery with out a whole lot of fuss for an end user is an interesting challenge. I have been following that thread as well. I have dreamed up a simpler plan that is not digital, but does the job just as well, the only issue is that you still have to manually set the float for your volumes, and you still have a regular sight glass. I will shoot an email to Adam to see if an add on module for a BCS to do say, digital volume and perhaps PH is a productive avenue for future expansion or if there is a way to do it with the current set up that I just am not seeing. S.

 

[SHvanBommel]

bump for posterity.

 

[BrewBeemer]

Float switches are probably the most economical. And easy to interface to the BCS-460 - connect one wire to +5V, and the other to a Din. So if Din=On, the switch is closed, Off = open.

Another option that I just ran across on the web:
Check these out:

http://sensing.honeywell.com/index.cfm/ci_id/140802/la_id/1/document/1/re_id/0

These sensors look very cool, and easy to interface to the BCS. But they're a little pricey. They work by using an internal LED, and when the no liquid is present all of the light is reflected back. When liquid covers the dome, some light escapes, and the sensor sends a 5V on/off back to the controller. I wonder what it does in the presence of foam (or splashes). Anyone use anything like this before?

Adam, a few questions;
First one's about that stainless Honeywell liquid level probe. The end of the lens sticking below the stainless body looks rather short like 1/8" or less. This must cause many short pump start and stop cycles with a rather narrow liquid level change. Has anyone operated or tested one of these probes and know for a fact the level difference between it switching on and off? How many pump cycles per minute with this produce with a normal mash sparge? I measured a one gallon raise of level in a 15.5 gallon Anheuser Bush keg by 1.25" in a keggle. If that probes lens is sticking below the sainless body by 1/8" that would be a 12.8 oz every pump cycle, I bet less as it will shut off before the lens is completly exposed to the air with enough LED light reflected back to the photo cell before the lens is completly exposed. This would cause less than an 1/8" level change with many pump cycles plus less than the 12.8 oz of fluid pumped per cycle.

The other question I got a reply from Auber Sales by a person named Suyi from a question I asked about the difference between a RTD and a Thermocouple type K temp probe. I was told that a RTD would repeat temp control at 0.5*C and would be hard to get a thermocouple to <2*C in stability. This would come to a 3.6*F variation for the K thermocouple a rather wide temperature swing vs a .9*F variation of a RTD probe. What's your take on this matter between these two different probes? I had to ask. I also read a reply about a level and a Ph control request if it can be added to the BCS-460. Level controls a simple wire job done many different ways. Is there room for expansion to handle a Ph control should someone want to add a Ph system later to their BCS-460 controller?

Thq

 

[slimer]

The Temperature Sensors that are compatible with the BCS is neither a type K thermocouple nor an RTD sensor. They are 10K ohm thermistors. From what I've seen, they are very sensitive to slight changes in temperature.

 

[slnies]

The Temperature Sensors that are compatible with the BCS is neither a type K thermocouple nor an RTD sensor. They are 10K ohm thermistors. From what I've seen, they are very sensitive to slight changes in temperature.

You are correct sir. That is because they are thermal resistors, or thermisitors. The BCS sends voltage to the resistor and then reads the varience coming back. In a thermalcouple, the thermocouple it self creates the voltage. So a divice will read different micro voltages for different temps. RTD's are a different animal altogether, but i will admit that my knowlege is a bit sketchy here, because I do not come across them all that often. So I will refrain from comment on them for now. This is just some FYI, to add to Slimmer's.

 

[slnies]

Adam, a few questions;
First one's about that stainless Honeywell liquid level probe. The end of the lens sticking below the stainless body looks rather short like 1/8" or less. This must cause many short pump start and stop cycles with a rather narrow liquid level change. Has anyone operated or tested one of these probes and know for a fact the level difference between it switching on and off? How many pump cycles per minute with this produce with a normal mash sparge? I measured a one gallon raise of level in a 15.5 gallon Anheuser Bush keg by 1.25" in a keggle. If that probes lens is sticking below the sainless body by 1/8" that would be a 12.8 oz every pump cycle, I bet less as it will shut off before the lens is completly exposed to the air with enough LED light reflected back to the photo cell before the lens is completly exposed. This would cause less than an 1/8" level change with many pump cycles plus less than the 12.8 oz of fluid pumped per cyle.

So here is the deal on your question. You can program the BCS-460 with a timer to limmit your cycle duration. So for instance, you have the level sensor set two inches above the grain bed, and you want it to get no lower than an inch above the grain bed. When the water falls bellow the the sensor, the timer is triggered, the amount of time that it takes to get to you one inch above the grain bed, becomes the cycle time. Did I answer your question? If you want a better explanation just let me know. S.

 

[slnies]

Well I will tell you what. I like the idea of a digital sight glass. This idea is not new however. The technology has been around in the industrial sector for a long time. Making it cheap enough for a home brewery with out a whole lot of fuss for an end user is an interesting challenge. I have been following that thread as well. I have dreamed up a simpler plan that is not digital, but does the job just as well, the only issue is that you still have to manually set the float for your volumes, and you still have a regular sight glass. I will shoot an email to Adam to see if an add on module for a BCS to do say, digital volume and perhaps PH is a productive avenue for future expansion or if there is a way to do it with the current set up that I just am not seeing. S.

So I did have a reply from Adam. I just haven't had time to post it yet. hopefully tonight when i get home I will have a chance. S

 

[Stevorino]

Ok guys, I'm seriously considering this-- here are my questions:

1) Is there a place where I can read a full description on how this really works? I understand that all your probes flow into the box and that is controlled by your computer-- but what about switches and such?

2) Assuming I have 3 burners, kettles, a stand, laptop, etc -- what would I need to buy to get a HERMS setup built with this gadget? It seems like this option would be no more expensive than a traditional HERMS but have a lot of upside.

3) Can I program the controller to do a completely automated step mash from room temperature?

4) What's the software support going to be for this thing going forward?

 

[slimer]

1) Embedded Control Concepts: Products

2) Think of it this way, you get all the equipment that you need for your HERMS minus the PID(s). It is 2.5x the price, but you also get more control over everything. With my current RIMS plan (draft is around here somewhere), the only thing I need to do is click the program start and switch hoses at the sparge. All temps/processes are controlled.

3) Yes. I think I answered it above.

4) Adam updated all the software before the public release. Also, much of the PID control and some of the states is very open-sourced. It is the users that make suggestions to improve the software. There's more information on the forum and the wiki on the site that I posted above.

I would suggest getting this over a PID. I put a lot of thought into it before I bought mine. The road isn't necessarily paved, but there are a lot of smart people that now considering this unit.

I also have to mention, I have not brewed with this yet, but have tinkered with the software states. I'm aiming to be able to brew with this come March/April. I have to replace the conduit to my garage with PVC before I can get it wired for 240V 30A service.

 

[Stevorino]

1) Embedded Control Concepts: Products

2) Think of it this way, you get all the equipment that you need for your HERMS minus the PID(s). It is 2.5x the price, but you also get more control over everything. With my current RIMS plan (draft is around here somewhere), the only thing I need to do is click the program start and switch hoses at the sparge. All temps/processes are controlled.

3) Yes. I think I answered it above.

4) Adam updated all the software before the public release. Also, much of the PID control and some of the states is very open-sourced. It is the users that make suggestions to improve the software. There's more information on the forum and the wiki on the site that I posted above.

I would suggest getting this over a PID. I put a lot of thought into it before I bought mine. The road isn't necessarily paved, but there are a lot of smart people that now considering this unit.

I also have to mention, I have not brewed with this yet, but have tinkered with the software states. I'm aiming to be able to brew with this come March/April. I have to replace the conduit to my garage with PVC before I can get it wired for 240V 30A service.

So what hardware do I have to purchase instead of the normal Temp PID's/Switches to be compatible w/ this system?

 

[eccsynd]

I'll also take a shot at answering your questions:

1) Is there a place where I can read a full description on how this really works? I understand that all your probes flow into the box and that is controlled by your computer-- but what about switches and such?

Well, almost. Probes flow into the box, the BCS-460. The BCS is not controlled by your computer. But you do need a computer to monitor and interact with the BCS. Think if it this way.. The BCS is itself a small standalone computer. It sits on your home network. The BCS hosts web pages, that you access through your network, to monitor and kick off control processes. Switches can be wired to inputs of the BCS to cause the desired behavior that you program.
You can walk through the BCS-460 page by page on the documentation wiki: ECCWiki
And see/discuss what other BCS-460 owners are doing on the forum:ECCForum

2) Assuming I have 3 burners, kettles, a stand, laptop, etc -- what would I need to buy to get a HERMS setup built with this gadget? It seems like this option would be no more expensive than a traditional HERMS but have a lot of upside.

BCS-460+SSRs = 6 pids. There are 4 probe inputs, and 6 outputs, each can be uniquely pid controlled. You can associate any output with any temperature input, so you could think of it as a 6-stage temp controller.

3) Can I program the controller to do a completely automated step mash from room temperature?

Yes, people have done exactly this.

4) What's the software support going to be for this thing going forward?

The firmware can be updated when new revisions are released. I maintain the firmware of the BCS-460, and will provide updates for bug fixes and feature requests going foreword. The current version of the firmware is thoroughly tested, 2.5 months of beta testing, and the community of owners is constantly growing. There have been scores of brewdays BCS controlled. Not to mention fermentations, and christmas lights

 

[slimer]

Thanks Adam.

 

[eccsynd]

Has anyone operated or tested one of these probes and know for a fact the level difference between it switching on and off?

I havent' tried these sensors myself, but according to the datasheet it has a hysteresis of 2mm, with a repeatability of +-1mm. As slnies mentioned, if you are worried about the pump switching too often, you can program the BCS-460 to use internal timers to make your own hysteresis, no problem.

Is there room for expansion to handle a Ph control should someone want to add a Ph system later to their BCS-460 controller?

There is an expansion port for future additions. Ph control isn't currently in plan.

 

[BrewBeemer]

Again I can't stump you Adam with questions your just too fast plus to the point answering them quickly everytime. No beating around the bush like some manufactures, just direct and answered. Impressed yes. Tonight I just got released home it's midnight I just read your notice stating a unit is available with my name on it. I'm just starting a series of spinal injections with hospital check ins with locks installed in the arm as i'll have 11 more injections in 3 different locations over the next 5-6 days. Can you hold onto my unit as I have the money but no time to get driven around at the moment as I can not even bend to drive not alone drive under these heavy meds including Morphine as needed. (meds suck give me my bier and the painless life back with homebrewing). I'm looking 7-12 days until i'm released and home from this painful hospital crap I have to go thru. Can you shelf that BCS-460 with four of your 4" long probes until i'm released then ASAP i'll get squared away with you? I have the total bill with shipping and tax you sent me app 8 or 9 days ago. I recall a few weeks ago I stated I was in no hurry as this spinal injection process was the cause for this delay into putting me into early February.
Your unit made me laugh today first thing this morning knowing how much better it is plus cheaper than PID's as my friend is hell bent with using PID's only on his first brewery build. He called this morning all happy telling me his three PID's arrived then told me so far they cost more than a 460 unit would of cost now he realizes the mistake and hole he has dug. This before he has purchased his temp probes. One would have to be on more meds than me at the moment to not consider a 460 vs a panel full of PID's that does less. He hasn't ordered the temp probes or SSRD's plus the control panel on and on. We'll keep a final price list on each different control build plus brew with each unit to see which one is a more high tech and fun besides i'll be able to download from the 460 to the computer. I just got a used computer given to me that will need to be erased to a empty memory state like a brand new computer this will be my brewing use only computer.
Nuff B S N. Thanks Adam. If this is any problem on this short delay let me know.
Take care. Carl the human pincushion.

 

[Stevorino]

Thanks for the replies guys.

If you don't mind, i'm going to keep asking questions-- I'm sold on buying the product, it seems like the way to go. The team here is so fast at answering questions I feel like I should keep taking advantage of it while I plan the rest of my brewery around this gizmo.

1) I noticed that ya'll sell probes on your website at an awesome price -- is it fair to assume that these probes are very accurate? I'm thinking I'd have one on each keggle and then one on the output of my HERMS coil -- what other ways are people choosing to place the 4 probes?


2) For those probing the outflow of the HERMS coil, what are they using to get that 4 inch probe in there? A T-Fitting?

3) For "Outputs" I'm assuming these are switches like scolenoid valves -- will any old valve work?

4) How long is the waiting list right now?

 

[p4ck37p1mp]

I used a T fitting on mine, used it first time yesterday, works well. Mine is on the outflow of the MLT. I also have them on HLT and BK as well. I got SSRs off ebay to control my pumps really cheap (25A for $8 each). The 5v DC turns the SSR outlet on and off, I was told to get a much larger SSR than the actual load you expect to use to keep SSR heat output lower and extend the life of the SSR. Search ebay for solid state relay and you'll see lots of them. Not sure what voltage solenoid valves work with, so you may not even need a SSR for that.

BTW - I found it easy to unscrew the probe itself from the brass fitting (has a seal built in) to be the best way to get the wires out of the way for cleaning.

 

[Stevorino]

What is an SSR and how do they work?

 

[p4ck37p1mp]

Solid state relay.. Takes the 5VDC control output from the BCS and switches 120-240VAC on or off.

 

[eccsynd]

Carl the human pincushion.

No worries Carl, I'll keep a controller with your name on it. Concentrate on getting better. Adam

 

[Stevorino]

Solid state relay.. Takes the 5VDC control output from the BCS and switches 120-240VAC on or off.

To me that means:

o82u3u9843fpa9j48fjapoijjh4eajfpoiejfpoiewajfoewajfoijewaoijeaoif on or off

 

[slimer]

To me that means:

o82u3u9843fpa9j48fjapoijjh4eajfpoiejfpoiewajfoewajfoijewaoijeaoif on or off

How's about this. You wire some ethernet wire to the SSR (from the BCS) as well as the HOT side of the power. The BCS sends a signal over the ethernet wire to turn on the SSR and let the current go through.

I like metaphors, so here we go.

Let's say the current is a car driving on the street. The BCS is the controller for a Railroad crossing and the SSR is the gate at the crossing. When the gate is down, the car cannot go through. When the gate is up, the car can pass.

For all the techies, I know that this example is for NC SSRs, but it still works in layman's terms.

 

[Stevorino]

How's about this. You wire some ethernet wire to the SSR (from the BCS) as well as the HOT side of the power. The BCS sends a signal over the ethernet wire to turn on the SSR and let the current go through.

I like metaphors, so here we go.

Let's say the current is a car driving on the street. The BCS is the controller for a Railroad crossing and the SSR is the gate at the crossing. When the gate is down, the car cannot go through. When the gate is up, the car can pass.

For all the techies, I know that this example is for NC SSRs, but it still works in layman's terms.

So essentially -- the BCS doesn't handle the power of some of the switches/instruments so you use an SSR as an adapter of sorts to speak between the BCS and the switches?

 

[eccsynd]

4) How long is the waiting list right now?

Everyone on the waiting list has been contacted. There are now a limited number of BCS-460 controllers generally available on the website for purchase.

 

[eccsynd]

So essentially -- the BCS doesn't handle the power of some of the switches/instruments so you use an SSR as an adapter of sorts to speak between the BCS and the switches?

Correct.

If you want to control burners, you'll need some sort of gas valves to turn the burners on/off. The gas valves (solenoids) that you choose will have some specified input. For example, some people use Asco valves that operate on a 120V AC input. What that means is that if you apply 120V AC to the valve, it will open. Disconnect the voltage, it will close.

The BCS-460 outputs 5VDC, which won't turn on the valve since they're not compatible. The 5VDC will control an SSR, which is just a relay or switch to turn on the valve. (nice analogy slimer )

Your typical Love switch or PID may have an onboard relay that could output the 120VAC to the valve. The BCS-460, on the other hand, was designed to drive SSRs typically for high current electric loads. But SSRs are cheap, they can be used to bridge to the valves with a little wiring effort.

You'll also probably want some type of pilot light. I know that there are some really good threads, and people on this forum with a ton of experience with gas rigs that could point you in the right direction.