Battle against airlock activity!

[Indyking]

I have to leave for work, so I'll be brief and mean here, and helpful and friendly when I get back.

1.) Yeast will propagate in the wort whether you make a starter or not. It is a matter of wait time and flavor characteristics, not how complete the fermentation is going to be. That has more to do with yeast vitality than their numbers.

Please do show me the reference for yeast starters being used as a main tool to improve flavor... never heard of such a thing but could be wrong...

Here is what John Palmer says briefly about starters: "Using a starter gives yeast a head start and increases the population preventing weak fermentations due to under-pitching."

Ref: http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter6-5.html

I'm pretty sure a "weak fermentation" will result in incomplete attenuation.

2.) Scientists don't put the labels on there, the marketing people do. Directions, instructions and descriptions on most homebrewing products are sub-optimal.

No, strongly disagree. The marketing use the information provided by the scientists, otherwise why spends any money with research & development at all? As an analogy, when you buy a drug and read the adverse effects sections, marketing people have no idea how those effects were discovered. There is often years of research behind it. Marketing just help to leverage the use of the most important scientific observations to be made available to the public in order to make the final product as appealing as possible.

 

[hal2814]

According to Dave Miller's book, underpitching may not leave enough yeast to clean up the acetaldehyde and diacetyl they create during fermentation. I don't have a link but you're more than welcome to peruse the book. It's in my downstairs bathroom. So in that sense, yes a starter would improve flavor.

As far as attenuation, all beers have incomplete attenuation. It's just a matter of how incomplete. It might be less than typcial for S04, but it'll be good enough.

Near as I can tell, you've already decided you're going to repitch despite the advice you asked for and received so go ahead. It won't hurt anything. It's your beer and your money. And to be fair, you did underpitch in the first place for a 1.07 OG beer.

 

[Hugh_Jass]

Please do show me the reference for yeast starters being used as a main tool to improve flavor... never heard of such a thing but could be wrong...

Here is what John Palmer says briefly about starters: "Using a starter gives yeast a head start and increases the population preventing weak fermentations due to under-pitching."

Ref: http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter6-5.html

I'm pretty sure a "weak fermentation" will result in incomplete attenuation.




No, strongly disagree. The marketing use the information provided by the scientists, otherwise why spends any money with research & development at all? As an analogy, when you buy a drug and read the adverse effects sections, marketing people have no idea how those effects were discovered. There is often years of research behind it. Marketing just help to leverage the use of the most important scientific observations to be made available to the public in order to make the final product as appealing as possible.

Here's a couple of links about pitching rates and off flavors.

http://seanterrill.com/2010/05/09/yeast-pitching-rate-results/

http://www.maltosefalcons.com/tech/yeast-propagation-and-maintenance-principles-and-practices

You can also just ask Wyeast:

How Does Pitch Rate Affect My Beer?

Pitch rates make a dramatic difference in the final flavor and aroma profile of any beer. Ester production is directly related to yeast growth as are most other flavor and aroma compounds.
A low pitch rate can lead to:

* Excess levels of diacetyl
* Increase in higher/fusel alcohol formation
* Increase in ester formation
* Increase in volatile sulfur compounds
* High terminal gravities
* Stuck fermentations
* Increased risk of infection

High pitch rates can lead to:

* Very low ester production
* Very fast fermentations
* Thin or lacking body/mouthfeel
* Autolysis (Yeasty flavors due to lysing of cells)

http://www.wyeastlab.com/hb_pitchrates.cfm

 

[COLObrewer]

Y . . . . what should I do in this case of probably inactive yeast... When is the best time for pitching.... Should a re-oxygenate or not... Should I try a different yeast, etc... . . . . My wort surface right now after more than 24h look flat with not even a tiniest bit of krausen. . . . . . .

24hrs is way to early to be asking any of these questions, fermentation is affected by numerous factors, some of them are out of our control, such as: barometric pressure, moon phase, vibrations (from wind, machinery, etc) and probably a host of other influences too numerous to track.

It's way past RDWHAHB time here.

 

[Indyking]

According to Dave Miller's book, underpitching may not leave enough yeast to clean up the acetaldehyde and diacetyl they create during fermentation. I don't have a link but you're more than welcome to peruse the book. It's in my downstairs bathroom. So in that sense, yes a starter would improve flavor.

As far as attenuation, all beers have incomplete attenuation. It's just a matter of how incomplete. It might be less than typcial for S04, but it'll be good enough.

Near as I can tell, you've already decided you're going to repitch despite the advice you asked for and received so go ahead. It won't hurt anything. It's your beer and your money. And to be fair, you did underpitch in the first place for a 1.07 OG beer.

No, you probably did not read all my posts before... I said (go back and check please), fermentation should be near done by Sunday night, then I will take a SG read, and decide about repitching or not... But I also said I hope I dont have to do that...

 

[Indyking]

Krausen is growing a bit bigger now... Though not quite good yet and airlock dead, I think it will eventually be fine... I may just RDWHHB after all... But this was a good discussion! Thanks!

 

[PVH]

Looks to me like worrying is the only problem here.

Yeast are unpredictable. There is more going on than the few factors you are considering. Hell, I regularly have significantly different lag times in the same batch of beer when I split a 10-gal batch in 2 primaries. They are the same wort, at the same temp, oxygenated to the same extent, and have the same yeast from the same starter or rehydrated dry yeast. As far as I can tell, they are identical.

But they must not be. Why do the lag times differ? I'll probably never know, but the beer from the two primaries tastes the same. When I am relaxing, not worrying, and having a homebrew in my homebrewery, I encourage the yeasts in the fermenters. Getting impatient with them or letting them know how upset you are may discourage them and ruin the beer.

If you were them, would you like to read this thread?

 

[November]

I'm sure Revvy isn't keeping score but it looks like +1 for RDWHAHB! Good Call!

 

[dvdanny]

No, strongly disagree. The marketing use the information provided by the scientists, otherwise why spends any money with research & development at all? As an analogy, when you buy a drug and read the adverse effects sections, marketing people have no idea how those effects were discovered. There is often years of research behind it. Marketing just help to leverage the use of the most important scientific observations to be made available to the public in order to make the final product as appealing as possible.

so... all those ads that claim to make your penis bigger are actually true? I mean they all say scientist backed right?

Look at it this way, can you numerically represent "fast" for me?

Don't think anyone would buy a yeast that claimed "We ferment just like the other brand, sometimes."

 

[jtkratzer]

Using the exact same yeast in a very similar OG wort, one batch kicked off with visible activity in under 12 hours. This second batch was pitched on Tuesday, and I didn't see any "visible" signs of activity until this morning. Every packet of yeast is different, every batch of wort is different.

I haven't been brewing for a month yet and I've seen it happen. Who cares what you see, or how many or few bubbles you see? You don't know what's going on in the wort/beer until you put a hydrometer in it. So, do that, or just leave it alone.

 

[Indyking]

so... all those ads that claim to make your penis bigger are actually true? I mean they all say scientist backed right?

Fortunately, I can not speak for that... LOL...

 

[Germelli1]

So lets see, it took 48 hours for fermentation to start.

Ther first reply said wait 72 hours before you worry.

You worried and proved the first reply that you mocked right.

Is that about it?

 

[Indyking]

So lets see, it took 48 hours for fermentation to start.

Ther first reply said wait 72 hours before you worry.

You worried and proved the first reply that you mocked right.

Is that about it?

The reason I worried was that I have been using S-04 for quite a while and it has never taken more than 6-8 hours to start krausen formation and robust airlock activity. In fact if you google it you will see that the main complaint about this yeast is how fast it kicks in fermentation. Anyhow, the krausen is right now finally well formed, yet no airlock activity but I don't care.. Not even thinking about repitching any more... I think this beer will come out pretty nice...

 

[jtkratzer]

The reason I worried was that I have been using S-04 for quite a while and it has never taken more than 6-8 hours to start krausen formation and robust airlock activity. In fact if you google it you will see that the main complaint about this yeast is how fast it kicks in fermentation. Anyhow, the krausen is right now finally well formed, yet no airlock activity but I don't care.. Not even thinking about repitching any more... I think this beer will come out pretty nice...

So, what you're saying is, to answer the above post is, "Yes."

 

[mattmuir]

Pretty much a noob here but I have had kinda the same situation here as well. All of my batches ahve take off rather fast except two that I brewed over the weekend. The temp was 63 to 65 well within the ale guidelines but zero airlock bubbles. After two days I moved to a warmer spot around 70 and bam took off like a rocket.

 

[munche]

Threads where people ask for advice, then try to prove the advice givers wrong, are my favorite threads.

I wonder if OP is related to the "That's what Jamil says!" guy

 

[Indyking]

So, what you're saying is, to answer the above post is, "Yes."

Only for those who missed the point, quite frankly...

 

[Germelli1]

What is the point that would be missed? That you planned your brewday right before you were going out of town? Or that an unproofed packaged of yeast in a higher than average gravity beer didn't take off or act as it normally does?

I am all for giving advice and being friendly, but it gets tough when the OP isn't appriciative and argues with those whose sound advice prooved true.

 

[Indyking]

What is the point that would be missed? That you planned your brewday right before you were going out of town? Or that an unproofed packaged of yeast in a higher than average gravity beer didn't take off or act as it normally does?

I am all for giving advice and being friendly, but it gets tough when the OP isn't appriciative and argues with those whose sound advice prooved true.

Still missed it... Sorry but I think this thread is dead so not really worth going thru details of what the real point was.

I appreciated the help of those who understood my dilemma and feel bad for those whose primary intentions were to prove I was doing something wrong... Unecessary!

Anyway, a few lessons learned:

- there is such a thing as fast or slow fermentation despite the contrary belief. The whole idea behind Safale S-04 vs Us-05 is fast fermenting at the expense of more sediment but more clear beer too. A must have got a slow lot of yeast packet or who knows how this yeast was stored before reaching my hands
- I'm glad I did not follow the urge to check the SG as many persisted. It would have been too early and there are risks for doing that at that point, not huge, but considerable.

RDWHAHB or something like that, you got the idea... Cheers

 

[Shooter]

- I'm glad I did not follow the urge to check the SG as many persisted. It would have been too early and there are risks for doing that at that point, not huge, but considerable.

RDWHAHB or something like that, you got the idea... Cheers

Well, people were telling you to check the SG so that you were making your determination of the status of your beer on something more than a gut feeling.

 

[kingmatt]

Well, people were telling you to check the SG so that you were making your determination of the status of your beer on something more than a gut feeling.

Some people can never be wrong.

 

[dilbone]

geesh...I waited over 50 hours and had no change in gravity before I panic'd and decided to re-pitch after finding out it was a re-called batch of Notti...

Not sure why you don't think a gravity reading was a good idea...since it is the ONLY quantitative measure of how much fermentation has taken place...

 

[Germelli1]

geesh...I waited over 50 hours and had no change in gravity before I panic'd and decided to re-pitch after finding out it was a re-called batch of Notti...

Not sure why you don't think a gravity reading was a good idea...since it is the ONLY quantitative measure of how much fermentation has taken place...

Shhhhhh! You are missing the point that is blantantly obvious yet only the OP knows what it is!

 

[vicratlhead51]

A YEAST infection that is...

(I was just image/googling looking for a funny yeast infection sign....there are none....you DON'T want to google image yeast infections....)

Lol! I said something to one of my buddies about hoping I didn't have an infection in a batch I made a couple months ago and he said, "A yeast infection? ew nasty!" I just laughed and said no I WANT a yeast infection!:rockin:

 

[Indyking]

Shhhhhh! You are missing the point that is blantantly obvious yet only the OP knows what it is!

Precisely...

 

[Indyking]

Shhhhhh! You are missing the point that is blantantly obvious yet only the OP knows what it is!

Precisely... I can't help you...

 

[ksbrain]

I think everyone needs to back off from attacking Indyking. He's just like any of us trying to ask a question here.

 

[RedGlass]

Threads where people ask for advice, then try to prove the advice givers wrong, are my favorite threads.

+1. Sorry for piling on here, but:

Anyway, a few lessons learned:

- there is such a thing as fast or slow fermentation despite the contrary belief. The whole idea behind Safale S-04 vs Us-05 is fast fermenting at the expense of more sediment but more clear beer too. A must have got a slow lot of yeast packet or who knows how this yeast was stored before reaching my hands
- I'm glad I did not follow the urge to check the SG as many persisted. It would have been too early and there are risks for doing that at that point, not huge, but considerable.

You did not learn those lessons. You learned that fermentation can take 0-72 hours to take off, as Revvy told you right at the beginning. You would have been able to speak to an experience with fast or slow fermentations if you had taken a gravity reading to diagnose your problem, but you did not. You came to a conclusion in your head about what was wrong (e.g. "must have got a slow lot of yeast") and refuse to acknowledge that the original advice telling you to relax was absolutely correct.

 

[HItransplant]

Yeasts are like teenagers, swmbos, and humans in general, they have their own individual way of doing things.

And worrying because it's not happening how fast or slow you think it should be is really not worth the energy.

It may not be what you expected it to be but that doesn't mean anything's wrong.

mmm hmmmm

 

[HSM]

I'm sure Revvy isn't keeping score but it looks like +1 for RDWHAHB! Good Call!

Rest assured he's keeping score and monitoring for the next cut and paste opportunity.