batch spargers - how long do you wait?

[twd000]

I have been chasing efficiency up and down on my new system (10 gallon cooler with stainless braid)

Was getting ~60% on normal beers, then closer to 50% on a 1.080 beer
I'd like to steady out at 70%, to match most recipes without adjustment. Not really intereted in getting to 80-90% with diminishing returns for extra effort.

I have been batch sparging with 4 gallons of 180*F water, untreated. I only let it sit about 10 mins after stirring, before draining.

I was listening to a Brewing Network podcast today and they pointed to batch sparging time as a critical weak point in efficiency. I think they said to wait 60 mins before draining, to ensure you got as much sugar out of the grains as you can.

Do any of you batch sparge that long? Seems to defeat the time savings vs. fly-sparging.

Also I am only doing to runnings: initial lautering runoff then one sparge.

Any advantage in splitting into three total runnings? Seems like the grain is already soaking up a large fraction of the water (I start with 10 gallons combined strike and sparge to yield ~7 gallon pre-boil)

 

[Hitokiri]

I started out doing a 2 step batch sparge, letting each step sit for 15 minutes, then stir, vorlauf, drain.

Then I got lazy and went to a single step sparge, letting it sit for 15 minutes before stirring, vorlauf, and draining.

Now I continue to do a single step sparge, immediately stir for about a minute, vorlauf (or not), and drain.

I've maintained a steady 70-75% efficiency throughout.

 

[troy2000]

For my last couple of batches, I've done a two-step batch sparge. I pour the water in, stir it thoroughly, and let it set for a couple of minutes before draining. Then I repeat, and I'm done. I've hit pretty close to the OG's listed in the recipes....

 

[DudeAbides]

I'm doing single sparges for about 10min with around 180* water and consistently get between 75-80%.

What's your crush like? I have a similar setup and found I can get a really fine crush without stuck sparges. Only time I had issues was with 1lb flaked oats, 8oz flaked barley, and a very fine crush. When I was relying on store crushed grains my efficiency was much worse.

 

[kombat]

I wait 10 minutes.

Biggest efficiency gains can be made by crushing as fine as possible without introducing stuck mash/sparges.

 

[taoisilent]

10 minutes is more than enough time to get residual sugars back into suspension. But conversion is done, so more time soaking at this point will not buy you anything.

 

[aspiffymofo]

5-10 minutes, then drain into a pitcher and recirculate until the wort runs clear again.
I get 73-80% efficiency.

 

[RM-MN]

I have been chasing efficiency up and down on my new system (10 gallon cooler with stainless braid)

Was getting ~60% on normal beers, then closer to 50% on a 1.080 beer
I'd like to steady out at 70%, to match most recipes without adjustment. Not really intereted in getting to 80-90% with diminishing returns for extra effort.

I have been batch sparging with 4 gallons of 180*F water, untreated. I only let it sit about 10 mins after stirring, before draining.

I was listening to a Brewing Network podcast today and they pointed to batch sparging time as a critical weak point in efficiency. I think they said to wait 60 mins before draining, to ensure you got as much sugar out of the grains as you can.

Do any of you batch sparge that long? Seems to defeat the time savings vs. fly-sparging.

Also I am only doing to runnings: initial lautering runoff then one sparge.

Any advantage in splitting into three total runnings? Seems like the grain is already soaking up a large fraction of the water (I start with 10 gallons combined strike and sparge to yield ~7 gallon pre-boil)

What if you could get consistently 80 to 85% with less time and less effort? My typical brew day is just over 4 hours for a 5 gallon batch and I have no cooler to clean, no wort chiller, and don't have to heat up water to 180 degrees to get there. Interested?

 

[NathPowe]

I add my sparge water, rock the intense stir for a minute or two, and then start my pump to vourlauf. After I recirculate a few minutes to clear up the wort, I start transferring to the kettle. I've tried letting it sit longer and it hasn't provided me with any noticeable gains in efficiency or quality. I'm pretty consistently at 73%.

That's just what works for me / my system. Good luck and enjoy the brew.

 

[DeutscheMaster]

I mill until I'm scared. When I sparge I wait 5 minutes then drain.

 

[Jaimez]

When i first built my mash tun was getting 60% eff doing a single batch sparge. I ended up changing to a double sparge and increased my eff to 68-70%. I dont wait at all. I just add 170F water, stir, lauter, sparge.
My manifold is CPVC. I ended up adding additional CPVC to the middle of the tun and i now reach 75-78% eff.
What does your braid look like? Just a big circle? try adding an additional braid through the circle to avoid channeling.

 

[NTXBrauer]

My normal wait time is 10 minutes with 175 degree sparge water.

 

[masonsjax]

If you get efficiency gains by letting it sit before draining, either you're not stirring the sparge water into the grain enough, or you have dough balls in your mash (not stirring enough).

Jaimez: there is no risk of channeling when batch sparging, that's a fly sparge problem.

 

[wilserbrewer]

My manifold is CPVC. I ended up adding additional CPVC to the middle of the tun and i now reach 75-78% eff.
What does your braid look like? Just a big circle? try adding an additional braid through the circle to avoid channeling.

I'm sorry Jaimez, but I respectfully disagree. IMHO braid or manifold configuration should make absolutely no difference in batch sparging, and I fully believe a 6-8" single length of braid is all that is needed to batch sparge.

As long as the tun drains is all that matters with batch sparging, channelling is relevant to fly or continuous sparging, not batch sparging.

Respectfully,
wilserbrewer

 

[SpeedYellow]

Waiting 60 minutes to rest a batch sparge is crazy talk. Perhaps you may eke out a tiny bit more sugars, but anyone in their right mind would rather just add an extra 0.25 lb grains, or just take the 1% efficiency loss, instead of wasting an hour idle.

Just rest it for 2-10 minutes, whatever you prefer. That's what rational people do.


Sent from my iPad using Home Brew

 

[Hamaki]

I usually do single batch sparge for 20 min but have done two sparges at 20 min each. Not sure why 20 min. Probably read it somewhere and accepted without questioning. Efficiency is 80 - 82%.

 

[stpug]

Here's my data point:
-3 runnings (i.e. 2 batch sparges) due to 5 gallon cooler size
-Stir for about 20-30 seconds prior to vorlauf
-No wait time on the 2 batch sparges (aside from the 20-30 second stir)
-Vorlauf immediately and drain
-Runnings go on burner immediately

I regularly get 80% brewhouse efficiency (i.e. into the fermenter). I'm usually seeing 85%+ mash efficiency. I attribute about 6-8% to using my own mill because prior to owning it I was seeing about 72-74% brewhouse efficiency from my LHBS.

Works for me

 

[acidrain]

What numbers are you using for your efficiency calcs... pre-boil or final brewhouse?
Pre-boil I get ~70%, but my brewhouse efficiency is really low because of my losses.

To answer your question, I sparge, stir, wait 10 min, vorlauf, drain, repeat for a two-step batch sparge.
I leave my grain a little coarse because I hate stuck sparges.

 

[Jaimez]

Jaimez: there is no risk of channeling when batch sparging, that's a fly sparge problem.

I'm sorry Jaimez, but I respectfully disagree. IMHO braid or manifold configuration should make absolutely no difference in batch sparging, and I fully believe a 6-8" single length of braid is all that is needed to batch sparge.

As long as the tun drains is all that matters with batch sparging, channelling is relevant to fly or continuous sparging, not batch sparging.

Respectfully,
wilserbrewer

Channeling in itself is a fact and we can agree on that at the very least.
With that said, if your only doing a SINGLE sparge then channeling most definately has a risk. I know it through trial and error of my own experience. If your doing multiple batch sparges then you eliminate that risk more and more.

 

[masonsjax]

Channeling happens when fresh water is entering at the top of the mash and making a B-line for the valve, bypassing most of the grain where the sugars sit. When you batch sparge, all the water is added at once and those sugars are violently stirred into the water, then drained at once. There is no way for fresh sugarfree water to channel to the valve. This is true whether you do a single, double, or triple batch sparge. If you're having channeling issues with batch sparging, you need to stir a lot more.

 

[Hamaki]

acidrain, I'm using post boil OG to determine efficiency. I use Brewer's Friend to run the numbers for me...I assume it uses reasonable PPG values for malts used.

Jaimez, I'm sure that there is grainbed channeling when I batch sparge but since I'm creating a uniform solution what difference does it make? If I were fly sparging and counting on a uniform gradient across the grainbed channeling would be a big deal. I don't see how it matters much for batch, though. What am I missing?

 

[djt17]

If you stir until your arms hurt; channeling during a batch sparge doesn't matter.

 

[SpeedYellow]

Channeling happens when fresh water is entering at the top of the mash and making a B-line for the valve, bypassing most of the grain where the sugars sit. When you batch sparge, all the water is added at once and those sugars are violently stirred into the water, then drained at once. There is no way for fresh sugarfree water to channel to the valve. This is true whether you do a single, double, or triple batch sparge. If you're having channeling issues with batch sparging, you need to stir a lot more.

Well said. Yes of course channelling does occur during batch sparging but it doesn't matter since all the liquid in the tun is uniform. Channelling is only an issue in fly sparging.


Sent from my iPad using Home Brew

 

[mrduna01]

I only worry about channelling when adding my vorlaufed wort back to the tun while the running go to the boil pot.

 

[Bamsdealer]

I split my sparge water into two equal amounts, stir like heck for a minute, circulate and drain. That gets me in the 70-75% range on most beers. A little less on the big beers.

 

[twd000]

well this is interesting advice

perhaps I am confusing the advice from this episode:
http://www.thebrewingnetwork.com/membersarchive/cybi05-09-11.mp3

Tasty may be referring to fly sparging for 60 minutes, not batch sparging?
Also he claims he barely crushes his grain, and is backed up by some commercial brewers who get 92% efficiency. They also have grain hydrator systems to ensure all the grain is wet, but I'm pretty sure I'm stirring enough that there is no dry grain in my mash tun. I have never seen a dough ball when emptying my mash tun.

Everyone on HBT advocates milling their grain down to flour, there must be a lot of experience behind this. I can't wrap my mind around how the center of an unmilled kernel could be dry after 60 minutes submerged in 150*F water?

 

[twd000]

What if you could get consistently 80 to 85% with less time and less effort? My typical brew day is just over 4 hours for a 5 gallon batch and I have no cooler to clean, no wort chiller, and don't have to heat up water to 180 degrees to get there. Interested?

Yes! Yes! Yes! This sounds like an info-mercial. Sham-Wow!

 

[SpeedYellow]

....

Everyone on HBT advocates milling their grain down to flour, there must be a lot of experience behind this...

Huh? It's not recommended to mill grain anywhere near flour. Most folks are using gap settings from 0.025" to 0.035" or thereabouts, and that doesn't result in anything approaching flour.

 

[homebrew57]

I do a double batch sparge. Stir for a while each time. I have tried letting it sit 5-10 minutes and not letting it sit at all. I found on my setup it really didn't make a different. So for time savings sake I just add sparge water, stir for a while, vorlauf, and drain. I hit 75-80% brewhouse efficiency every batch.

 

[dryboroughbrewing]

I pump the sparge water in, give it a nice stir, and then recirculate until clear, then I run off. It's probably about 10 minutes before I'm completely happy.

 

[bandt9299]

To me the whole idea of the batch sparge is to save time, letting it sit is a big time waster in my opinion, stir, stir and stir again then vorlouf and let it fly. If I had an hour to take to sparge I would fly sparge. I have done the double batch sparge before and it did make a small difference.

 

[PastorofMuppets]

I split sparge amount into half.
Add sparge liquor and stir for about a minute.
Then I begin the vorlauf. I dont wait to begin unless I am going for a mash out temp which I normally dont. There is no reason to wait even a minute. Once you begin to vorlauf you will set the grain bed and get all the sugars that are there to be had.

I get 78-82% standard.

round cooler false bottom.