Barleywine timeline and oxygenation

[Wavewalker]

I'm brewing a barleywine next week and I have a couple questions.

In terms of timeline, I understand the process will probably take about 6 months. When I rack to secondary I am pitching champagne yeast. How long should I leave it in there before bottling?

In terms of oxygenation, I know I want to oxygenate the wort before pitching the yeast in the primary, but should I also do it when I pitch the champagne yeast in secondary? I've read about other styles that you only want to oxygenate once, but I've heard with barleywines that multiple times is good.

I've also read that with barleywines, you want to jostle it around (without exposing to fresh oxygen) just about daily, to keep the yeast active. Is this a good idea?

In general, is there anything else I need to know about the timeline or oxygenation?

 

[Revvy]

Nononononono......ONLY oxygenate during the initial yeast pitch. AND DON'T jostle it daily or do anything else that will cause your beer to get too much oxygen into it and oxydyze it, do you really want to make 5 gallons of liquid cardboard?

Whoever gave you this advice either hates you and wants you to ruin what amounts to an expensive beer OR is simply full of ****.

Use plenty of yeast energizer, even adding bread or some other yeast to the boil, yeast are cannibals and will get all excited and eat their dead first. Oxygenate it PLENTY before your yeast pitch, and ONCE MORE before 12 hours have elapsed, for 1-2 minutes.

After that do nothing til you plan to rack it and add the champagne yeast. BUT RACK CAREFULLY so NOT TO OXYDIZE YOUR BEER.

If you follow the advice in your post you are asking for disaster.

 

[Revvy]

I talked about it in my 5 year aged 1.150 og/150 Ibu barleywine.

It caused quite a stir when it first came out a couple years back at a conference Chris White of Whitelabs presented that info about adding 02 within 12 hours of a big beer. IIRC there was some pretty heated arguments on here. But yes it is recommend for big beers that you give it a second period of aeration within the first 12 hours after yeast pitch. Before enough fermentation has happened to have to worry about oxydation. !2 hours and for beers above 1.080 I think.

I just heard it last week on Basic Brewing radio...It was in the NHC follow up. Shocked the crap out of me when I heard it...

It was during the I-view with Chris White from White Labs.

Considering he makes the yeasts, methinks he'd know.

July 3, 2008 - NHC Wrapup Pt. 1
Steve joins James as they begin their collection of interviews gathered from experts at the National Homebrewers Conference in Cincinnati. This week: Dave Wills, Michael Ferguson and Chris White.
http://media.libsyn.com/media/basicbrewing/bbr07-03-08nhcwrapup01.mp3

It's about 3/4's of the way into the I-view...

Considering he says that we need 10-12 PPM's of oxygen for good fermentation and vigorous shaking is only good for 2 ppm's, hitting a stuck fermentation @ under 10-12 hours with a minute of O2 may be may be just the thing. Especially for really big beers.

New info comes out all the time...Even John Palmer has gone back on what he wrote about IBU's after going to a confrence on hops....And a lot of the stuff we come to believe as 'conventional wisdom' is wrong anyway, yet we perpetuate it...

It was a good discussion here;

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/adding-oxygen-during-fermentation-71456/

I'm all for a post yeast pitch blast of O2....but BEFORE it begins to turn into real beer......within the first 12 hours...but with already a 20 point drop in gravity, I still maintain that you don't want too much o2 exposure now...

Flyguy gives a good elaboration on it...

This is an accepted practice, but specific to high gravity beers and only before active fermentation begins (typically within the first 12 to 18 hours). When the yeast are still in their lag/growth phase, they need a lot of oxygen, and it is hard to get enough into solution in a high gravity brew, even with an oxygenation setup. But if you add it in two 'doses' you can get a lot more into solution. Since the yeast are are actively metabolizing O2 in the lag and growth phase, all of that O2 will get scavenged quickly, provided you do it before they hit active fermentation. If timed correctly, there is little worry of oxidation.

 

[Groo]

Is it recommended to oxygenate if you don't have the pump? Would I have to open the lid a bit and shake it or stir it or could I do this with the lid on?

 

[Revvy]

Is it recommended to oxygenate if you don't have the pump? Would I have to open the lid a bit and shake it or stir it or could I do this with the lid on?

Until you have beer you NEED to oxygenate, how you do it is up to you. I use an airstone and a red o2 bottle from my hardware store. Some use a pump, some shake, some stir like mad. You'll have to search to fine the appropriate times for whatever system you use.

 

[chemman14]

what is the reason you are adding the champagne yeast at secondary?

 

[Wavewalker]

what is the reason you are adding the champagne yeast at secondary?

That's upon the advice of my LHBS. I'm looking to hit 10-12% (preferably more on the 12% side. Does the champagne yeast sound like a bad idea to you?

 

[Wavewalker]

Okay, when I oxygenate the second & last time (before 12 hours are up), can I do that with the lid on? I'm a little paranoid about infection.

And should I just bottle once I'm sure fermentation has stopped, or let it stay in the carboy for a while?

 

[slomo]

I would keep your brew in your primary for three weeks and then rack to secondary for another three weeks then bottle. I am not to sure that I would add the champagne yeast though.

 

[dcp27]

That's upon the advice of my LHBS. I'm looking to hit 10-12% (preferably more on the 12% side. Does the champagne yeast sound like a bad idea to you?

It's a fine idea, but probably not necessary. sometimes after extended aging and the strength of the brew the initial yeast can be weak and it can take quite some time to carbonate so pitching a fresh pack a week or so before bottling is a semi-normal practice. If you pitch enough yeast and treat it well, you'll probably be ok without it though.

Okay, when I oxygenate the second & last time (before 12 hours are up), can I do that with the lid on? I'm a little paranoid about infection.

And should I just bottle once I'm sure fermentation has stopped, or let it stay in the carboy for a while?

You can do the second aeration with the lid on. As for bottling, I'd do it about a month before you intend on drinking some, leaving it in the secondary after about a month in the primary til then. Its personal preference, but IMO bulk aging is better than bottle aging.

 

[Wavewalker]

Okay, so if I leave it in primary for a month, I can rack to secondary with the champagne yeast and leave it there for four more months, before bottling? Is there any danger of off flavors from autolysis or other factors?

I'm going to be buying another carboy soon, so considering that this beer will be getting new yeast in secondary, should I eventually rack out of there into another carboy, or just leave it in there until a month before drinking?

Also, I've heard I may have a hard time keeping the fermenting barleywine cool. I have a fairly cool, dark closet to ferment in. Do I need to put a fan in there or something?

 

[dcp27]

Since the champagne yeast is being used just to ensure you have enough healthy yeast for proper bottle carbonation I'd just add it a week or so before you bottle. Some people just add it during bottling, but I like to give it some extra time in case it finds some extra sugar the original yeast didnt eat for whatever reason. There shouldn't be any danger of any off-flavors once in the secondary as long as your sanitation is good, you don't leave alot of head space, and temperatures are relatively stable.

Ya bigger beers tend to build up more heat, so its best to start on the cooler side. A fan, wet towel/t-shirt, a tub, etc can all help maintain proper temperatures.

 

[Wavewalker]

Since the champagne yeast is being used just to ensure you have enough healthy yeast for proper bottle carbonation I'd just add it a week or so before you bottle. Some people just add it during bottling, but I like to give it some extra time in case it finds some extra sugar the original yeast didnt eat for whatever reason. There shouldn't be any danger of any off-flavors once in the secondary as long as your sanitation is good, you don't leave alot of head space, and temperatures are relatively stable.

Ya bigger beers tend to build up more heat, so its best to start on the cooler side. A fan, wet towel/t-shirt, a tub, etc can all help maintain proper temperatures.

Would the champagne yeast just be for the carbonation, though? From the conversation in the store, it sounded like it was to ensure 11 or 12%. Adding it a week before bottling wouldn't result in burst bottles? They told me to use two packets.

 

[dcp27]

what yeast are you originally pitching with?

 

[Wavewalker]

what yeast are you originally pitching with?

I'll have to check the specifics when I get home, but it's a Scottish ale yeast.

 

[Wavewalker]

I'll have to check the specifics when I get home, but it's a Scottish ale yeast.

Oh, also, they told me to add 2 tsp. of yeast nutrient to the last 15 min. of boil.

 

[dcp27]

Scottish yeast should be able to get you there on its own as long as you pitch enough, aerate enough, and give it plenty of nutrient. Champagne yeast can't break down the more complicated sugars that ale yeast can, so unless the ale yeast dies before finishing the simple sugars, the champagne yeast isn't gunna do anything.

 

[Wavewalker]

Scottish yeast should be able to get you there on its own as long as you pitch enough, aerate enough, and give it plenty of nutrient. Champagne yeast can't break down the more complicated sugars that ale yeast can, so unless the ale yeast dies before finishing the simple sugars, the champagne yeast isn't gunna do anything.

Okay, they told me to use two packets of the Scottish ale yeast. I guess that's enough without the champagne yeast? But if I do use the champagne yeast a week before bottling, is there any danger of bottle explosion?

 

[dcp27]

nope, actually 2 packs wouldn't be enough, unless this a dry yeast, but I've never seen a dry scottish yeast. you should be making a starter with the scottish yeast, you can check this out for appropriate size: http://www.mrmalty.com/calc/calc.html
and this for details on making a starter: http://www.mrmalty.com/starter_faq.htm

if you're worried about bottle bombs you can pitch the champagne yeast earlier, it won't hurt anything. a week should be plenty of time, but you can add even more time if it'll put your mind at ease.

 

[Revvy]

If you want to carb your beer, you pitch your chamapnge yeast on bottling day not anytime before.... YEAST does not cause bottle bombs, excess sugar for the yeast to eat causes bottle bombs, which won't be a problem months down the line when you plan pn bottling. You are going to add fresh yeast and just enough sugar on bottling day for the yeast to do their job and carbonate your beer.

If you pitch it early the co2 is going to go out your airlock and not be present to be trapped in the bottle to carb your beer...that's a wasted step.

I think you need to post your entire recipe and your plans and let us take a look at it, because it seems either you've got supremely bad advice from people OR you are not grasping something about this process. Because nearly everything you've come up with had been wrong in some way or another, I don't know if it's because you are inexperienced at brewing in general or you're just nervous about this. But it seems you're going about this the wrong way.

The only good advice it seems you've taken is adding yeast energizer/nutrient in the boil, which I even mentioned in my first post when I talked about even adding yeast hulls to the boil.

You really treat a big beer the same way basically as any beer-you provide plenty of nutrients and good fermentatbles for it to eat. Oxygenate thoroughly, pitch plenty of yeast. And be patient. You just tend to have to do more of everything.

People often add more yeast in secondary (I did in mine) but not for bottling but to bring the gravity lower, or in my case to add another layer of flavor from a non neutral yeast strain. Bit not everyone does...it's gonna depend on your gravity. where your beer finishes at.

As to temp control, you only need to worry about that during the first week or in your case couple weeks of primary fermentation, after that, like any beer temp is not that crucial, just leave it in a dark closet til you rack it to secondary, then put it back in that closet and don't mess with it unless you are planning to oak it or dry hop it or something like that...and if you plan those things, you want to do that closer to bottling day. If bottling day is 6 months or more down the line, then you don't want to dry hop til a week before you plan of bottling or else you're going to lose the hop (or oak) flavors/aromas.

But really, when you get some time, sit down and post your recipe and your plans and let us correct any more misinformation you are under, barleywines are prety spendy beers to brew, as well as time intensive, so you don't want to do things that are gonna waste your time and money by ruining it.

 

[Wavewalker]

nope, actually 2 packs wouldn't be enough, unless this a dry yeast, but I've never seen a dry scottish yeast. you should be making a starter with the scottish yeast, you can check this out for appropriate size: http://www.mrmalty.com/calc/calc.html
and this for details on making a starter: http://www.mrmalty.com/starter_faq.htm

if you're worried about bottle bombs you can pitch the champagne yeast earlier, it won't hurt anything. a week should be plenty of time, but you can add even more time if it'll put your mind at ease.

It is a dry yeast. I was planning on doing a starter around when I start my boil. Is that wrong?

 

[Revvy]

It is a dry yeast. I was planning on doing a starter around when I start my boil. Is that wrong?

Wit dry yeast you don't need to make a starter. You just pitch as many packets as you need.

 

[Wavewalker]

I appreciate all the thoughts and advice. Revvy, I will post the recipe tonight. I did realize after I got home that they either didn't specify the timeline, or didn't write it down (aside from rack to secondary after krausen has fallen). I am dryhopping this one, and they said to add the hops when I rack to secondary, which is very different from what you're saying. But like I said, I'll post the recipe tonight. For reference, I'm shooting for something like Victory's Old Horizontal, if anyone's familiar with that, and trying to generally avoid too much figgy/datey flavors.

 

[Wavewalker]

Is making a starter the same as hydrating the yeast?

 

[Revvy]

I am dryhopping this one, and they said to add the hops when I rack to secondary, which is very different from what you're saying.

This beer won't be drinkable for probably a year...so if you want any hoppiness in the bottle you don't want to dry hop it too early in the cycle. Because it is going to fade.

My BW is 7 months in secondary, and I've done nothing since I racked it after a month in primary and I added my belgian yeast and some more sugar.

Since my beer is going to sit in bottles for 4 more years after I bottle it, I am a week before I bottle going to dry hop it, and use 5 times more hops than people who are conditioning for less time would. I want some hoppiness to still be there in 2015.

Is making a starter the same as hydrating the yeast?

No- rehydrating is just that, letting liquid absorb into the yeast. It wakes the dry yeast up from dormancy.

Making a starter is what you do with liquid yeast. The main thing is does is build up the cell count.

 

[Wavewalker]

It's going to take a year? They told me half that. Well, I'll post the recipe later, and you can tell me if you still think it'll take a year.

 

[Revvy]

It's really about how it's going to taste ultimately. When it's going to lose it's rocket fuel taste and start tasting smooth and mellow.

Big beers take a long time. For me the timeline for a normal barleywine (not like my 5 year aged barleywine) for me it would be. Primary for 1 month, bulk age in secondary for another 5 (including dry hopping and or oaking at the end of that) and bottling for 6 months without cracking one. It's going to take a couple of months even with adding champagne yeast at bottling time, along with the sugar< for the beer to carb up....and just because it's carbed up won't mean it won't still taste like crap or rocket fuel, and not need several more months for the flavors to come together. That's why for me I wouldn't even crack a bottle til it's a year old.

There's a rough rule of thumb that some folks have quoted that for a big beer like a barleywine, is that for every 10 gravity points above 1.060 your beer needs roughly 1 month more in secondary minimum.... It's a rough guestimate. So after a month to make sure fermentation is happening in primary if your beer is 1.100 og, we're talking roughly 5 months in secondary.

These are beautiful beers, and the benefit from patience....

 

[Wavewalker]

Here's the recipe (sorry if I give too much detail):

Ingredients:
13.2 lb. Northwestern Extra Light Extract
1 lb. Cara Munich II 40-50*L
1 lb. Cara Belge 11.7-15.5*L
1 lb. Turbinado sugar
1 oz. Galena hop pellets
3 oz. Centennial hop pellets
2 tsp. yeast nutrient
2 11.5g. packets Safbrew S-33 dry ale yeast
2 5g packets EC-1118 champagne yeast

1. Fill brewpot 3/4 full, place on stove and heat to 160*F
2. Steep the grains for 30 min between 150-160*F
3. Remove grains & do not wring out bag
4. Bring this to a boil, then remove and add 6.6 lb. softened extract, stirring in and dissolving completely
5. Return to heat and add Galena hops, maintaining rolling boil for 60 minutes
6. At 15 minutes left, remove from heat and add 6.6 lb softened extract, 1 lb. turbinado sugar, and 2 tsp. yeast nutrient, stirring in and dissolving
7. At 5 minutes left, add 1.5 oz. Centennial hops
8. At end of boil, remove from heat, stir vigorously for several minutes, and let stand 15 minutes
9. Force cool to 75*F and rack into fermenter, topping off to 5 gallons w/cold (preboiled or bottled) water
10. Add hydrated yeast and aerate well
11. Ferment at 65-70*F, with blowoff tube, until krausen has fallen
12. Rack to secondary, with blowoff tube, adding dry hops (1.5oz. Centennial) & 2 packages EC-1118 yeast
13. I'm not clear on how long they said in the secondary, I think 3-4 weeks, at least until fermentation is done
14. Transfer to bottling bucket w/priming sugar solution, bottle
15. Age