Barleywine Recipe - Critique please!

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Ksosh

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Here's a Barleywine recipe I threw together that I'd like to brew soon, and I'm visiting the LHBS today to buy the stuff, so critiques, especially quickly, would be welcome.

16 lbs Pale 2 row malt
4 lbs Munich malt
1 lb Crystal 10 malt
8 oz Chocolate malt
8 oz Lyle's Golden Syrup
1 lb Brown Sugar
3 oz EKG @ 60 mins
1 oz EKG @ 15 mins
Irish Moss @ 15 mins
1 oz EKG @ 3 mins

Irish Ale Yeast (Wyeast 1084)

Doing a single infusion batch sparge method.

OG 1.101
FG 1.025
Color 19.8
IBUs 39.6

Any thoughts? I like my stuff sweet and malty (like Brooklyn's Monster Barleywine).

Thanks!

P.S. I debated adding 8 oz of coffee malt, but wasn't sure about it... anyone think it's a good idea?
 

mkling

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Lots of things look really good here. The only thing that I personally wouldn't do is put the chocolate in there (also wouldn't do the coffee malt). For my tastes, this will be too roasty for a English style barleywine. If you really want it, I'd go with 4 oz. Makes this more like an Imperial brown Ale. I'd probably save the extra money that the Lyle's costs, too. It's expensive compared to regular sugar, the taste difference between Lyle's & table sugar is subtle, and you won't be able to taste the difference in this great big flavorful beer.

Finally, you won't get much opportunity to sparge this beer. (Maybe 1 batch sparge of 3 gallons.) Plan on doing an extra sparge to collect wort for a second small beer -- call it a mild or bitter, I suppose. No sense in wasting all that good malty sweetness.
 
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Ksosh

Ksosh

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The brown sugar I thought would add both fermentables and a nice brown sugar tang to it (is this incorrect?). The Lyles' was thrown in because a couple other barleywine recipes I've seen used it, and I thought it was an easy way to up the OG rather than adding any more malt (I think my MLT will be at it's max with this recipe).

Based on both of your comments, I'm leaving the coffee out, dropping the chocolate to 4 oz, dropping the Lyles entirely, adding a pound of pale 2-row (17 total).

I'm thinking of maybe adding another pound of brown sugar (2 lbs total)... assuming brown sugar does add to the sweet flavor and not just increase the OG. Can someone confirm this? Would Molasses or dark treacle be better?
 

mkling

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Molasses or treacle would be too much here. I think you could up the brown sugar or leave it at 1 lb. 2 lbs will tend to dry things out as Poohbah suggested, so it probably depends on your typical brews. If they often end a bit low (FG), I'd leave it out. If they usually end a bit high, I might add it b/c with 22lbs malt, it could end really high & you don't want a 1.030+ FG. (The 1.025 that you're aiming for seems great to me for a big barleywine.) The brown sugar won't add much sweetness -- all the sweetness will ferment out. You will get a smidge of molasses kind of character, especially if you're using the dark brown sugar, which could be great.

Let us know how it goes.
 
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Ksosh

Ksosh

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Here's the final recipe:

17 lbs Pale 2 row malt
4 lbs Munich malt
1 lb Crystal 10 malt
4 oz Chocolate malt
1 lb Brown Sugar
3 oz EKG @ 60 mins
1 oz EKG @ 15 mins
Irish Moss @ 15 mins
1 oz EKG @ 3 mins

Irish Ale Yeast (Wyeast 1084)

Doing a single infusion batch sparge method.

OG 1.102
FG 1.026
Color 15.1
IBUs 39.5

Thanks for the help guys!
 

flyangler18

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You need to bump the IBUs up pretty significantly, or this will be overbearingly malty. Just my tuppence.
 
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Ksosh

Ksosh

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You need to bump the IBUs up pretty significantly, or this will be overbearingly malty. Just my tuppence.
I was going by the OG vs. IBU scale (https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f14/ibu-scale-question-80449/#post850808). I'm shooting for it to be either slightly or extra malty, and with ~40 IBU, it'll be smack in the center of slightly malty (hopefully). Adding another 1 oz bittering puts me at ~50.4 IBU, which is evenly balanced. Depending on if I accidentally mash high (=sweeter, right?), I might bump the bittering hops up to 4.5 or 5 oz at brewing time, if I think it'll be sweeter than I thought.
 

mkling

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For an English style Barleywine, 40-50 IBUs is probably just fine. If you were aiming for an American BW, you'd need to practically double the hops.
 

flyangler18

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For an English style Barleywine, 40-50 IBUs is probably just fine. If you were aiming for an American BW, you'd need to practically double the hops.
Dunno, 35 is the lower limit for the style. Depends what you're after, I suppose.

I'd be more comfortable pushing it closer to 50, if not a touch higher.
 

kanzimonson

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I like that you're using the BU/GU ratio to think about the perception of bitterness and maltiness, but two things to consider is that a barleywine will have 1) a HUGE malt flavor due to all that grain and 2) a lot of sweetness because of the higher OG. Combine these two and I think you're a little low on the bitterness. It would be a shame to have it be too sweet after all that effort and expense.

And consider that you'll likely be saving some bottles for many years to come, and what bitterness you have will decline over time (I think I've heard Jamil say you lose something like 30% of your bitterness after 6 months? Maybe even 50%?)
 
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Ksosh

Ksosh

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Fine fine fine. It seems that 50 IBU is what I'll shoot for. I just noticed I had put 6 gallons for the amount, when I changed it to 5, the IBUs increased a little. So upping the EKG to 4 oz at 60 minutes, getting rid of the late addition, for an estimated IBU of 51.5, OG 1.122 and a FG estimate of 1.030 according to beersmith. I'll probably mash low to reduce the sweetness a little, based on the revised FG estimate.
 

JLem

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I'll probably mash low to reduce the sweetness a little, based on the revised FG estimate.
Mashing low is the way to go. With such a high OG, you're going to end up with a high FG anyways. You'll want to have as much fermentable sugars in there to help dry it out - your brown sugar addition will help with that too. Your estimated FG is already 1.026 - if you don't mash low it will be even higher. If it were me, I'd probably mash no higher than 152 F.
 
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Ksosh

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Thanks for the advice everyone. I'm brewing this right now. Mash temp is around 152-154 (1/2 way through mashing), though I think I overshot the amount of water I used.

Anyway, I'll use the second runnings (~5 gallons) to make some type of Pale Ale, depending on the OG. I've got some Safale-S05 and extra hops lying around (1 oz Spaltz, 2 oz Hallertau, 1/2 oz Hersbrucker) that I wanted to use anyway before they got cheesy, so maybe I'll be making an experimental German Pale Ale?
 
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Ksosh

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Well, the barleywine ended up with an OG of 1.080, which is disappointing, but a little expected since I ended up with about 6 gallons AFTER the boil and mashed low.

The 4 gallons of second runnings gave me about 1.030 OG. I did a large starter for the barleywine's Irish Ale yeast and it went crazy, blowing off about half a gallon of stuff over the course of a couple days.

Today the barleywine's gravity read 1.018 (~8% ABV) and it stopped blowing off stuff yesterday, and the second runnings are at 1.012 (~2.3% ABV). I'm giving both another couple weeks in the primary, but I think they'll both turn out OK.

I'm thinking of maybe splitting off some of both batches into separate 1 gallon containers with fruit, any suggestions/comments?
 

kanzimonson

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I say suppress the urge to mess with stuff after fermentation, unless you specifically brew a beer with that in mind.

I'd like to hear about the hopping of the second runnings beer. And the boiling, etc. The reason I ask is I definitely like me a session beer, but 2.3% abv is pretty low. And I'm not just saying that for the alcohol - I'm just concerned that it'll come across as a thin, watery beer. In this case, the one thing I suggest is blending a small part of the barleywine with the session beer, just to bring it up to 3-3.5% abv.

And BTW, I wanted to make a barleywine several months ago, and I started out with high hopes. I was trying to hit 1.100. Well something went wrong (I think trub loss with 4oz of hops was more than I expected) and the OG ended up at 1.087. Nevertheless, I fermented that sucker, resisted the urge to "fix" things, and it has ended up a delicious beer. And I haven't even tasted it carbonated yet. So don't be discouraged by your beer that didn't turn out the way you want, it'll be great.
 
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Ksosh

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Thanks for the advice. The second runnings yielded about 5 gallons pre-boil, and took
1/2 oz hersbrucker @ 60
1 oz Czech Saaz @ 60 min
2 oz German Hallertaur @ 30 mins
1 oz US Saaz @ 10 mins
1 package of Safale S05 yeast

I think I will look into blending some of the higher ABV barleywine, I was debating putting some sugar in it, but I don't want a cidery taste.
 
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Ksosh

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Bottled the barleywine today, got 5 gallons on the dot out of it. Unfortunately, I overestimated how much would come out of the fermenter (lost a GALLON to the yeast cake??) and so it'll probably be a little overcarbed (4.3 oz priming sugar, called for 3.8 oz). Tasted great warm and flat, so I'm hoping in 6 months or so it'll be awesome.

The second runnings are currently cold-crashing until I have another chance to bottle.
 
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Ksosh

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So how did this one turn out? I mean with some time under its belt?
There's only a couple bottles of this left (which I'll probably drink in the next month or so, since I'm about to do a cross-country move at the end of July and the amount of beer my wife is letting me move with is fairly limited (~4 cases). The beer turned out to be pretty sweet, which was just right for my tastes. It's probably one of my best beers (IMO and some others), although my 'IPA' friends absolutely hate it. Were I to do it again, I'd probably up the hops a little and make sure I hit my OG (which should still keep it firmly 'malty'), although given my track record for all-grain brews, I rarely hit my OG. The brewing has taken a backseat in the past 6 months or so, but I'll be starting it back up after the move.
 

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