Bad CO2 Bottle?

[Vale71]

As I recall, the fundamental requirement for food grade CO2 as opposed to industrial is that it be free of traces of mineral oils from lubrication. That leaves a lot of room for other impurities.

It has to be free of anything that could be harmful to humans. Other than that it's only traceability and liability issues.
If you buy industrial CO2, use it for food processing and somebody gets sick you're the only one liable for it as the CO2 was not intended for that purpose, so it's entirely your fault.

 

[Schlenkerla]

And having the same gas filled in a different bottle is going to fix the issue how?



I do. It's the traceability requirements and the liability issue. The gas itself is the same. There are no lubricants in CO2, either food grade or industrial.



Now you're just making stuff up. I assure you I get food grade CO2 filled in a steel cylinder with all the associated paperwork on a regular basis. No metal (either rusted or not) will release vapors at temperatures at which life is still possible. You cannot "smell" metal.

I'm not trying to debate you.

I didn't disagree with your previous post. That the metal doesn't make a difference. Only that it has a distinguished visual difference aluminium vs steel and then the taste itself. I'm not advocating cause and effect with the metal type. Only that there is a visual, metal type, and a perceived taste difference.

All I know the gas bottle changed how the beer tasted. I'm looking for an explanation. As does the OP.

What do think is the root cause? The gas or something else?

 

[Vale71]

Sorry if I misinterpreted your post. As the majority position here seems to be that the metal is the cause for the off-flavor I took your posts to be in agreement with the majority consesus.
Personally, I think the likelihood that the off-flavor stems from CO2 contamination is not higher than 0,1%, whereas the likelihood that the cause lies in the brewing process is around 99,99%. The reason being that in 99,99% of cases even if you don't buy food grade CO2 you're still getting food grade CO2, you just don't get the associated paperwork. At the manufacturing level there is no difference between food-grade and non food-grade and certainly no one goes around contaminating non food-grade CO2 on purpose.

 

[Schlenkerla]

Sorry if I misinterpreted your post. As the majority position here seems to be that the metal is the cause for the off-flavor I took your posts to be in agreement with the majority consesus.
Personally, I think the likelihood that the off-flavor stems from CO2 contamination is not higher than 0,1%, whereas the likelihood that the cause lies in the brewing process is around 99,99%. The reason being that in 99,99% of cases even if you don't buy food grade CO2 you're still getting food grade CO2, you just don't get the associated paperwork. At the manufacturing level there is no difference between food-grade and non food-grade and certainly no one goes around contaminating non food-grade CO2 on purpose.

Ok. Much to think about...

I'm brewing according to LOB. All prior experience with gas and bottle types was before persuing LOB. I try to spund or to naturally carbonate. I'm using a fraction of the gas I used before. Since then I've had little to no problems using only aluminum bottles. That said, I'm not a staunch advocate on one factor at a time analysis.

I'd be interested in your brewing practices and how it compares to people's hypothesis on gas and your experiences.

 

[Vale71]

In any case, if in the OP's or your case water really did somehow migrate into the empty CO2 bottle then the main issue with that would be bacterial or fungal proliferation, which might indeed be causing unwanted aromas in subsequent refills. That's why modern regulations in many countries (not sure about the USA) mandate the use of residual valves in bottles that are meant to contain food-grade gases. A residual valve will always maintain a minimum residual positive pressure in the bottle thus always preventing contamination from outside sources.
If that is what is causing the issue then it really doesn't matter whether it's an aluminum or a steel bottle, contamination will cause issues in both cases. If you were experiencing that then replacing the bottle with another steel bottle would have fixed the issue just the same, but since either accidentally or on purpose you got a bottle made of a different material it's easy to give in to the temptation of seeing a causal correlation where there can be none.

 

[brewbama]

I don’t recall where I got this. Probably from a beer forum member in a conversation about CO2 purity (there are many)

 

[Vale71]

I'd love me some "bone dry" CO2 please!

 

[brewbama]

I’ll add most of those threads end with a call to the gas company who says something like “we just stock food grade. Everybody gets the same stuff because it’s easier to stock one vs two grades.” There’s usually a caveat that goes something like “we sell to all the restaurants and welding supply houses in this area. Everyone gets the same gas.”

 

[Nate R]

I’ll add most of those threads end with a call to the gas company who says something like “we just stock food grade. Everybody gets the same stuff because it’s easier to stock one vs two grades.” There’s usually a caveat that goes something like “we sell to all the restaurants and welding supply houses in this area. Everyone gets the same gas.”

This is what I have read on every thread about CO2 here. Also, I think the same probably goes for the welding supply and fire extinguisher shops as well.
I think @Vale71 brings up a good point- it might be more about liability and supply chain than anything else. OF course, he uses a comma for a decimal, so he may not be from around here ('Murica), so I can only imagine that our snowflake laws are more strict.

 

[Vale71]

And I also use metric like there's no tomorrow, so take that you 'merican...

Regs can of course change from country to country (in your case even from State to State) and be more or less stringent accordingly. Residual valves might or might not be mandatory, traceability might or might not be mandatory, filling stations might or might not have to be designed and operated so that no contamination can be dragged into the bottle during filling (which might or might not require evacuating all lines with a vacuum pump prior to commencing filling) and so on and so forth.

One principle is more or less universal though. If somebody dies (or at least gets seriously ill), somebody else might have a problem...

 

[Nate R]

And I also use metric like there's no tomorrow, so take that you 'merican...

Regs can of course change from country to country (in your case even from State to State) and be more or less stringent accordingly. Residual valves might or might not be mandatory, traceability might or might not be mandatory, filling stations might or might not have to be designed and operated so that no contamination can be dragged into the bottle during filling (which might or might not require evacuating all lines with a vacuum pump prior to commencing filling) and so on and so forth.

One principle is more or less universal though. If somebody dies (or at least gets seriously ill), somebody else might have a problem...

I live in the Great State of California... so yeah- if it can be regulated, it is. Our state is working on making Soda illegal, so soon this C02 gas is going to explode in prices.

 

[50calshooter]

Out of the five years I spent as a CO2 delivery driver/bottle repair/system trouble shooter and repair/draft system installer I have never had a "bad" tank of CO2. Don't know what happened to your awesome beer with out being there to check it out but, it wasn't the CO2.

 

[Schlenkerla]

Out of the five years I spent as a CO2 delivery driver/bottle repair/system trouble shooter and repair/draft system installer I have never had a "bad" tank of CO2. Don't know what happened to your awesome beer with out being there to check it out but, it wasn't the CO2.

Sounds annecedotal to me unless you've worked at my gas supplier. When a bottle goes empty and you swap it out and the beer changes I think it's more than a coincidence. In 13 years it's only happened twice so I'm not 100% sure. I also don't like getting rusty bottles. Both times the ones I've gotten have been rusty and have left rust rings on a wooden table, on marble and lineolium. That in itself is enough for me to not want them.

 

[Schlenkerla]

Out of the five years I spent as a CO2 delivery driver/bottle repair/system trouble shooter and repair/draft system installer I have never had a "bad" tank of CO2. Don't know what happened to your awesome beer with out being there to check it out but, it wasn't the CO2.

By the way... I humped a lot with the MA-Duece. Always liked when we were allowed to let it rock and roll. The receiver was stamped 1944 so she was old but reliable.

 

[50calshooter]

Sounds annecedotal to me unless you've worked at my gas supplier. When a bottle goes empty and you swap it out and the beer changes I think it's more than a coincidence. In 13 years it's only happened twice so I'm not 100% sure. I also don't like getting rusty bottles. Both times the ones I've gotten have been rusty and have left rust rings on a wooden table, on marble and lineolium. That in itself is enough for me to not want them.

That's the outside of the tank. It's a whole 'nuther world on the inside of the tank.

 

[camonick]

Just what we need, a new homebrew myth, "steel gas contamination".[/Q

For what it's worth and may have nothing to do with "contamination", but I had an old steel bottle that appeared to be in decent condition except for the expired hydro stamp and the place where I exchange my bottles told me they had no interest in, and would not be willing to exchange a steel bottle. I did not ask why nor argue and went on my way.

 

[bracconiere]

I am so upset at this point. 10 gallons of beer that probably going to get dumped.

i i wish us homebrewers could start a city.....that way i could properly dispose of all the "dumpers"...i feel they all should be properly filtered through my liver before 'dumping', proper waste disposal and all....lol

edit: to me it's like people marrying a super model, then divorcing her if she gains a few pounds...

 

[Schlenkerla]

By the way... I humped a lot with the MA-Duece. Always liked when we were allowed to let it rock and roll. The receiver was stamped 1944 so she was old but reliable.

Off topic.... @50calshooter.... This is what I was thinking.

 

[brewbama]

I prefer electric motors attached to my weaponry

 

[Nate R]

I prefer electric motors attached to my weaponry

Technically isnt that motor gas powered?

 

[Schlenkerla]

Technically isnt that motor gas powered?

That would be true. Whatever gas that is pushing the bullets typically moves slides. Not sure on gatling guns.

 

[Schlenkerla]

I prefer electric motors attached to my weaponry

Is that a 50 Cal or 7.62mm?

 

[brewbama]

7.62. A lot of them.

 

[50calshooter]

Well, mine isn't quite like that. It's a bolt action target rifle. Made by a gunsmith who migrated over from Germany as a child and built a successful business building 50 cal rifles. Then he died in a car crash.