Dont bag hops unless you use a plate chiller. There are so many more details to worry about before separation of trub. Make sure you select one of the biab equipment profiles
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I use an immersion chiller and bag my hops. I use Better Bottle fermenters that are only six gallons. If I didn't bag the hops and filled the fermenters with enough to make sure I got 5 gallons out. I would have blow off every time.
brew703
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I bag my hops as well and use an immersion chiller.
I think the first thing you should do is fill your kettle with 6 or 7gal of water and do an hour long boil test. Play with the heat to get a decent boil then use that boil off amount in beersmith.
It is better to under-estimate your brewhouse efficiency a little, you can always add a little water at the end if your gravity too high.
I get about 65% for a full volume BIAB, I let my chilled wort settle for a half hour or so and siphon the clear wort into the fermentor. I figure in a gal of trub.
If you were off by 10 points on your starting gravity you needed to give your mash more time to convert.
to go from 1063 to 1080 from 6.5gal you should of had about 5gal left in your kettle. That sounds like a reasonable 1gal/hr boil off. If you ended up with 2.5 to 3gal of 1080 either you did not have 6.5gal to start or you were not at 1062 to start.
It is better to under-estimate your brewhouse efficiency a little, you can always add a little water at the end if your gravity too high.
I get about 65% for a full volume BIAB, I let my chilled wort settle for a half hour or so and siphon the clear wort into the fermentor. I figure in a gal of trub.
If you were off by 10 points on your starting gravity you needed to give your mash more time to convert.
to go from 1063 to 1080 from 6.5gal you should of had about 5gal left in your kettle. That sounds like a reasonable 1gal/hr boil off. If you ended up with 2.5 to 3gal of 1080 either you did not have 6.5gal to start or you were not at 1062 to start.
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dustinthompson85
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I had more "slurry" to put in but assumed it was stuff I shouldn't add to the fermenter. Not sure how much more I had, I had to dump my strainer twice when it plugged up.
For 17 lbs of grain in 7.75 gal of strike water the maximum possible pre-boil gravity (i.e. 100% conversion efficiency) is about 1.069. No way possible to get a pre-boil gravity of 1.076 with the amount of grain and water you used. Your pre-boil gravity (before sparge/rinse) of 1.063 represents a conversion efficiency of about 90-91%. This isn't terrible conversion efficiency, but it is possible to routinely get 95-100% conversion efficiency with a good crush, a long enough mash, proper mash temp, proper pH, etc.
Your 6.5 gal pre-boil with 7.75 + 0.5 gal of water gives a grain absorption rate of about 0.103 gal/lb, which is pretty typical for an unsqueezed BIAB with a moderate drain time.
Sparging (rinsing) will never raise the pre-boil SG. The sparged wort has a lower SG than the initial wort because it has a lower concentration of sugar. Sparging increases the amount of sugar in your BK, but it increases the amount of water even more, so the pre-boil gravity goes down, but the lauter efficiency goes up (because you got more of the available sugar out of the spent grain.)
As mentioned previously, your biggest issue seems to be much higher boil off than your calculations assumed.
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Ok, all this wasted slurry volume also greatly reduced you fermenter volume. It might even be a bigger factor than your boil off. If you are going to BIAB, don't try to strain the wort going into the fermenter, just let all the trub settle out at the end of fermentation.
Brew on
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dustinthompson85
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How would beer smith come out with a estimated pre boil gravity that is higher than 100% efficiency?For 17 lbs of grain in 7.75 gal of strike water the maximum possible pre-boil gravity (i.e. 100% conversion efficiency) is about 1.069. No way possible to get a pre-boil gravity of 1.076 with the amount of grain and water you used. Your pre-boil gravity (before sparge/rinse) of 1.063 represents a conversion efficiency of about 90-91%. This isn't terrible conversion efficiency, but it is possible to routinely get 95-100% conversion efficiency with a good crush, a long enough mash, proper mash temp, proper pH, etc.
Your 6.5 gal pre-boil with 7.75 + 0.5 gal of water gives a grain absorption rate of about 0.103 gal/lb, which is pretty typical for an unsqueezed BIAB with a moderate drain time.
Sparging (rinsing) will never raise the pre-boil SG. The sparged wort has a lower SG than the initial wort because it has a lower concentration of sugar. Sparging increases the amount of sugar in your BK, but it increases the amount of water even more, so the pre-boil gravity goes down, but the lauter efficiency goes up (because you got more of the available sugar out of the spent grain.)
As mentioned previously, your biggest issue seems to be much higher boil off than your calculations assumed.
Brew on
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dustinthompson85
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So its typical for brewers to empty the entire kettle into the fermenter? Where did I pick up leaving the "bad stuff" behind?Ok, all this wasted slurry volume also greatly reduced you fermenter volume. It might even be a bigger factor than your boil off. If you are going to BIAB, don't try to strain the wort going into the fermenter, just let all the trub settle out at the end of fermentation.
Brew on
I would have to see your BS settings, recipe, and equipment profile to figure that out.
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Many 3-vessel brewers leave behind BK trub, but then they start with a lot less particulate in the BK due to the filter bed created by the grain in their mash/lauter tun. With BIAB you will have a lot more fine grain particulate matter in the BK, which settles slowly after the boil. You could wait many hours for all of this to settle, and then just rack the clear wort to the fermenter, or just dump it all in the fermenter and let it settle out at the end. The second option is a lot quicker (total brew time.) As you found, filtering isn't easy to do because of the clogging issue.
Whirlpooling can help settle out the trub in the BK. It is very effective for leaf hops, but I don't know how effective it is for suspended flour.
Brew on
many ways to skin the homebrew cat. Some say hot break is not good, but cold break is good. People get good results by dumping it all into the fermentor. Dumping it all into the fermentor helps with overall BHE.
I repitch my yeast and like to start with clear wort so there is less stuff in the yeast at the end.
jrgtr42
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for curiosity, what was your expected volume? what was your recipe and process?
If you were hoping for 5 gallons and you ended with 3, there's something seriously wrong.
If you were hoping for 5 gallons and you ended with 3, there's something seriously wrong.
Water volumes aside, I'm even more puzzled by the 17 lb grain bill...
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dustinthompson85
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Puzzled in what way?
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dustinthompson85
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https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/homebrew-recipe/dogfish-head-90-minute-ipa-clone/
That's what the recipe called for.
I think if you look carefully at your data points you got reasonable close on your first attempt, it was just the trying to strain your wort that messed you up.
Did you measure the volume prior to straining, was it close to 5gal? What was your boil-off set to in beersmith? If you are using the same pot for BIAB as you did for your extract batches, what was your boil-off for your extract batches?
Figure out your approach to dealing with kettle trub and I think next time will much better without much tweaking.
Figure out your approach to dealing with kettle trub and I think next time will much better without much tweaking.
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What type burner are you using? That seems like a lot of boil off even for a 90 minute boil.
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dustinthompson85
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This one.
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dustinthompson85
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My brewsmith setup says I'll lose .5 gal per hour in boil. I am assuming that's super low based on what I have read, maybe closer to 1 gal
Best thing to do is a test run and measure your boil off, .5gal per hour is low for a kettle appropriate for a 5gal batch(10gal) if uncovered, 1gal per hour is reasonable if you are not creating a volcano type boil. The diameter/surface area of your kettle pretty much determines the boil off if you are uncovered.
What were your kettle and fermentor loss set to in beersmith? If you plan to dump everything set kettle loss and mashtun dead space to zero and maybe .25 to .5gal for fermentor. If you had a lot of hops it will not compact as much.
Beersmith doesn't really tell you what your boil off will be. It is telling you what to expect based on the boil off rate that you tell it you normally get. You haven't set up your equipment profile so it is taking whatever was in there by default.
On the top bar in Beersmith go to HELP then go to the videos. Watch at least the one on setting up your equipment profile. I would suggest that you watch them all, probably some fo them several times. Mess around with the program a lot and try to see what it is doing. It is not a plug and play software. You have to learn to use it properly. Once everything is set it is very quick to make a recipe and you will have a good idea what you will get even before brewing.
But... with much higher boil off his post boil gravity would be proportionally much higher at the same time. That doesn't seem the case. Or is it?
I have the feeling the OP dumped a lot of good wort with his trub in an effort to get less trub in the fermentor.
VirginiaHops1
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Was it your first all-grain attempt? Don't give up and go back to extract. I recently just began grain BIAB and it's not that hard, but you do have to get your system dialed in for more variables, like mash absorption, etc. If you ended up way too light on the yield your pre-boil volume wasn't right, or you way overboiled. But I doubt you did that, so just try again and use more water. If Beersmith gave you the wrong numbers for pre-boil you may need to tweak your equipment settings. Maybe the boil-off amount is way too high or something.
I hear you on being disappointed. My 2nd batch was a double IPA, extract partial boil. I figured it would be awesome, and better than my 1st, especially because I love DIPAs. Actually ended up worse, I think because I overboiled the extract. Just have to keep trying and your beer quality will definitely keep getting better.
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dustinthompson85
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I definitely dumped more than I should have not understanding it would settle in the fermenter. Fail there on my part for sure. I think I boiled off more than expected, but also dumped wort that I shouldn't have.
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dustinthompson85
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1.080 (measured with slurry in it). Honestly I say I dumped a little over a gallon or right around that mark. Didnt measure it or anything just going off feel looking back. Wasn't in the best frame of mind at the time.
He said he had 6.5gal of 1065 pre boil and 1080 post boil for a 90min boil, this works out to about 5gal
edit, fuzzy memory, 63 and 80 , 6.5*65/80 = 5.1
edit, fuzzy memory, 63 and 80 , 6.5*65/80 = 5.1
With 5 gallon 1.080 post boil, minus 1 gallon of trub, and only 2.5 gallons in the fermentor, there's still 1.5 gallon missing.
If the OP indeed boiled off those 1.5 gallons his post boil/fermentor gravity would have been much higher than 1.080.
Any other losses unaccounted for?
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dustinthompson85
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2.5 in the fermenter is also an estimate. The lowest marking it has is 5 gal
He said he had to dump his strainer a couple of time because it was clogged, so there was some of missing 1.5gal.
Assuming the 1080, 1063 and 6.5gal were accurate the post boil volume is well defined.
Assuming the 1080, 1063 and 6.5gal were accurate the post boil volume is well defined.
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Out of curiosity... I noticed someone made the comment to stop straining the wort.
Can you explain why? I have always strained and I haven't noticed any negative effects from it..
I don't use a funnel with a tiny screen, but instead I have a ridiculously oversized hop spyder that I double as a strainer... You have to stir a bit but I don't get any losses of wort volume and a much cleaner solution for primary fermentation.
Can you explain why? I have always strained and I haven't noticed any negative effects from it..
I don't use a funnel with a tiny screen, but instead I have a ridiculously oversized hop spyder that I double as a strainer... You have to stir a bit but I don't get any losses of wort volume and a much cleaner solution for primary fermentation.
I would have assumed the strainer content to be part of the 1 gallon trub that was dumped. Maybe those were not included, and perhaps there was some left in the kettle too.
2.5 gallon was a guesstimate, I don't see the 5 gallon mark. It looks to be about half full to the bottom of the shoulder. May well be 3 gallons.
If the initial 1063 was incorrect and was actually lower then the boil off/post boil volume would be higher to get to the 1080 post boil gravity. That could help explain some of the lost wort.
Always good to keep good notes.
Although straining is not necessary, all trub will settle out in the fermentor, it may be done if you wish, for whatever reason. Perhaps you want to harvest a cleaner yeast cake, or use the maximum fermentor volume while leaving ample headspace. Squeeze that strainer/spider bag, get all the good wort and hop juice out. I use silicone mitts.
Using hop spiders or baskets in the boil is also perfectly fine, as is bagging, or any other way to contain hop matter during the boil. As long as you refresh the wort inside your hop device often, by lifting, draining, "massaging," etc. there should be no or only a small reduction in extraction and isomerization (bittering) efficiency. Remember, wort never boils inside the bag or basket, it's a couple degrees lower in there.
I have a plate chiller, and use 2-3 large (9x22") fine mesh hop bags and have not noticed any negative effects, only positive ones. I can recirculate, whirlpool and chill at full bore and full speed, getting much more predictable results. No more cavitation, slow flow, or clogged chillers. The amount of cursing has also dropped dramatically.
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Those were my thoughts... That's why I was wondering the comment about not straining...
I only took 1 philosophy class in college. I came out with one perl. “One need not add entities”. In other words keep it simple and keep your variables to a minimum otherwise learning becomes nearly impossible.
Make a simple session SMASH. Mash it, boil it, rack it, ferment it, and drink it. Document everything and improve and innovate 1 variable at a time. It’s a hobby, there is no end of the rainbow to search for. It is a progression that will involve hours, weeks, months and years of enjoyment if you let it.
Make a simple session SMASH. Mash it, boil it, rack it, ferment it, and drink it. Document everything and improve and innovate 1 variable at a time. It’s a hobby, there is no end of the rainbow to search for. It is a progression that will involve hours, weeks, months and years of enjoyment if you let it.
Morrey
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One of the biggest issues facing newer brewers (not that you are one) is the inaccuracy of volume measurements before, during and after the process. Even fermenters with etched markings and kettles with sight glasses can be considerably off. Even though it seems ok to simply trust these markings, 1/2 gallon off one way or the other can make huge differences in efficiency calculations. Check these markings with a trusted measuring device of some sort.
All of the advice you see from seasoned brewers is suggesting you do boil off tests so you can determine an accurate boil off rate. I have a 10G kettle and I boil off 1.25 gallons per hour as a norm. This is setup in my BeerSmith equipment profile, but sooner than later, you'll know by memory how much water to start with and how much you'll be losing in the process.
If you give up now, you'll sell yourself short of ever becoming a successful homebrewer. It will get better if you take your time.
All of the advice you see from seasoned brewers is suggesting you do boil off tests so you can determine an accurate boil off rate. I have a 10G kettle and I boil off 1.25 gallons per hour as a norm. This is setup in my BeerSmith equipment profile, but sooner than later, you'll know by memory how much water to start with and how much you'll be losing in the process.
If you give up now, you'll sell yourself short of ever becoming a successful homebrewer. It will get better if you take your time.
Boilinginsc
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Here’s a write up on biab that has a water chart
https://www.brewinabag.com/pages/instructions
If you’re making an above average alcohol content beer, (above 1.050 OG) and use more than ten pounds of grain, add 12 oz of water for every pound of grain over ten. That doesn’t sound like much, but eight pounds more (or eighteen pounds total) is ninety-six additional ounces, which is 3/4 of a gallon. You can always add water to reach volume and you can always boil longer to reduce volume. This will concentrate the sugars in the wort and allow you to hit your Original Gravity target.
https://www.brewinabag.com/pages/instructions
If you’re making an above average alcohol content beer, (above 1.050 OG) and use more than ten pounds of grain, add 12 oz of water for every pound of grain over ten. That doesn’t sound like much, but eight pounds more (or eighteen pounds total) is ninety-six additional ounces, which is 3/4 of a gallon. You can always add water to reach volume and you can always boil longer to reduce volume. This will concentrate the sugars in the wort and allow you to hit your Original Gravity target.
I am sure you will find the correct settings in Beersmith and then you will be up and running. As a reference, my evaporation rate is around 1.15 gal per hour using an induction burner. When I used to have a snake keg with heating elements I had it up to 2.20 gal per hour! You really do not need to put that much heat in the boil. I would aim for the 1.25 gal per hour mark by testing different burner/heat levels.
As a guide, my total water used between mash and sparge is around 10 gallons. I start my boil with 7.75 gallons of wort with the 1.15 boil off rate. This is for below 1.060 beers. So when you are adjusting your profile, just keep in mind that your estimated pre boil wort volume will need to be at least this number or higher if your boil off rate exceeds my 1.15 per hour.
When I did BIAB my starting water was pretty much the same - 10 gallons.
Don't give up unless you do not like the hobby. There is always another batch and people here willing to help.
As a guide, my total water used between mash and sparge is around 10 gallons. I start my boil with 7.75 gallons of wort with the 1.15 boil off rate. This is for below 1.060 beers. So when you are adjusting your profile, just keep in mind that your estimated pre boil wort volume will need to be at least this number or higher if your boil off rate exceeds my 1.15 per hour.
When I did BIAB my starting water was pretty much the same - 10 gallons.
Don't give up unless you do not like the hobby. There is always another batch and people here willing to help.
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