Awful tasting Allgrain

[Haydn-Juby]

So recently I`ve been attempting to brew up some all grain beers. I`m fairly well experienced in kit brewing and have dabbled in extract with good results. Here`s the deal though.

My allgrain beers have had this awful grainy,metallic, cidery flavor that I really can`t begin to describe. Presumably I have been doing eveything correct and still end up with awful tasting beer. Its all been hazy as hell and almost completely opaque. I`ve been brewing BIAB style and what I`m thinking it could possibly be is to much grain matter falling through my bag then being boiled and fermented. I have about an inch or two of sediment on the bottom of my fermenting vessel before there is even any lees built up. Is this normal.

I am also 100% it`s not infection as I know enough of brewing prevoious non all grain batchs to recognize it. Sorry for such a long post but i`m somewhat concerned and really want to get into doing allgrain properly.

 

[AgentHubcap]

What are you using for a bag? What temp are you mashing at? Can you run though your process?

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Home Brew mobile app

 

[fesser]

I think he's talking about a mash-bag. That method is pretty common.

 

[masskrug]

Husky / Grainy
These flavors are akin to the astringent flavors produced from the grain husks. These flavors are more evident in all-grain beers due to poor grain crushing or sparging practices. If the grain husks are shredded during crushing by the use of a Corona grain mill for instance, these husk flavors are more likely to be extracted during the sparge. Follow the same procedures recommended to prevent astringency to correct the problem.

Grainy flavors can also be contributed by highly toasted malts. If you are making your own toasted malts, allow them to age at least two weeks after crushing so the harsher aromatic compounds can dissipate. Cold conditioning the beer for a month or two will often cause these harsh compounds to settle out with the yeast.

Cidery
Cidery flavors can have several causes but are often the result of adding too much cane or corn sugar to a recipe. One component of a cidery flavor is acetaldehyde which has a green-apple character. It is a common fermentation byproduct and different yeasts will produce different levels of it depending on the recipe and temperature. Cidery flavors are encouraged by warmer than normal temperatures and can be decreased by lagering.

If it is caused by aceto bacteria, then there is nothing to be done about it. Keep the fruit flies away from the fermentor next time.

Metallic
Metallic flavors are usually caused by unprotected metals dissolving into the wort but can also be caused by the hydrolysis of lipids in poorly stored malts. Iron and aluminum can cause metallic flavors leaching into the wort during the boil. The small amount could be considered to be nutritional if it weren't for the bad taste. Nicks and cracks ceramic coated steel pots are a common cause as are high iron levels in well water. Stainless steel pots will not contribute any metallic flavors. Aluminum pots usually won't cause metallic flavors unless the brewing water is alkaline with a pH level greater than 9. Shiny new aluminum pots will sometimes turn black when boiling water due to chlorine and carbonates in the water.

The protective (grayish) oxides of aluminum can be enhanced by heating the clean pot in a dry oven at 250°F for about 6 hours.

http://www.howtobrew.com/section4/chapter21-2.html

 

[Haydn-Juby]

My mash temps have been very high as I`ve been having a lot of trouble controlling them on the stove. I`ve been splitting the grist in half and mashing each half in two pots then conducting the boil in the same two pots. Some temps might have started off at 170 because my thermometer is really a ***** a giving accurate readings. That could most likely be what causing the grainy flavors. Also I have no way of conducting a vorlauf because of the bags. I'm guessing that's leaving a lot of husks in the beer which then get boiled and thrown in the fermentor. Thoughts ?

BTW I`ve already read through the "how to brew" list that you posted , not that I don't appreciate it, but nothing really stood out and made me think that's what I was doing wrong.

 

[Yooper]

You definitely want to stay under 160 during the mash. I'm wondering about your water- harsh, astringent, and metallic sounds like water issues to me.

What kind of water are you using?

 

[Haydn-Juby]

You definitely want to stay under 160 during the mash. I'm wondering about your water- harsh, astringent, and metallic sounds like water issues to me.

What kind of water are you using?

Spring water that I've bought in 1gal jugs. The water is very low in any mineral content but has some so the yeast still has some kind of mineral nutrient. Does Ozonized water really mean anything in terms of brewing ?

I've used the water on Coopers kits and extract batchs and it tasted okay so i'm assuming all grain should be the same.

 

[b-boy]

Water during a mash is a whole different animal than water used for extract brewing. The minerals in mash water are important because they impact pH during the mash. If your pH is too high or too low, you can experience issues that produce off flavors. Different mineral levels can also impact flavors profiles such as perception of bitterness.

You might want to look into your water. Maybe do a small batch with tap water vs. spring water and compare the final products? You could also look into getting a water profile done so you know what you're working with. There are a lot of spreadsheet tools available to help you get a better results. EZ-Water or Bruin Water are examples.

Overall, all-grain is difficult to get right. There are so many additional variables like mash temp, water, and sparging to keep track of. I'm working on year 3 doing all-grain and I'm still trying to get it perfect. Keep going though. As you learn more and dial in your system a little better you'll see gradual improvements that lead to a good final product. I had a friend tell me my IIPA was the best he's ever tasted. Made my day.

 

[Wynne-R]

Haydn-Juby, I agree with Yooper about the water. You might try RO for a batch as an experiment. Check this: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/brewing-water-chemistry-primer-198460/

I brew two half batches on the stove too. It is almost impossible to maintain mash temps that way. If you have to do it that way, keep the heat low so you won’t accidentally mash out.

Will your pots fit in the oven? If your oven will go down to 65C (150F) You can get great temp control. I usually start a little low and slowly ramp up. If they won’t both fit at the same time it would be worth it to do them one at a time.

A decent thermometer is a must. This is my favorite: http://thermoworks.com/products/low_cost/rt301wa.html It’s currently on sale. The display is on the end so you don’t have to bend over to read it. It’s nearly as fast and accurate as the Thermapen and MUCH cheaper.

PS Just caught your last post, ozonized is nothing to brewing, we’re going to boil it anyway. Are you sure about the water? Around here spring water means filtered tap water with a small amount of spring water added.

 

[Haydn-Juby]

Water during a mash is a whole different animal than water used for extract brewing. The minerals in mash water are important because they impact pH during the mash. If your pH is too high or too low, you can experience issues that produce off flavors. Different mineral levels can also impact flavors profiles such as perception of bitterness.

You might want to look into your water. Maybe do a small batch with tap water vs. spring water and compare the final products? You could also look into getting a water profile done so you know what you're working with. There are a lot of spreadsheet tools available to help you get a better results. EZ-Water or Bruin Water are examples.

Overall, all-grain is difficult to get right. There are so many additional variables to keep track of. I'm working on year 3 doing all-grain and I'm still trying to get it perfect. Keep going though. As you learn more and dial in your system a little better you'll see gradual improvements that lead to a good final product. I had a friend tell me my IIPA was the best he's ever tasted. Made my day.

I can almost guarantee that I can't use tap water. Chloride levels are massively high, so much that you can actually smell the water while you're pouring it. Seriously I wonder if it's even safe to drink anymore :cross:

I might just stick to extract for the next little while now but I'm not gonna give up. I'll just get a mashtun, lower my mash temp, and possibly check out my water.

Also its been ending up completely opaque. Anyone care to comment on this as well ?

 

[Haydn-Juby]

Haydn-Juby, I agree with Yooper about the water. You might try RO for a batch as an experiment. Check this: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/brewing-water-chemistry-primer-198460/

I brew two half batches on the stove too. It is almost impossible to maintain mash temps that way. If you have to do it that way, keep the heat low so you won’t accidentally mash out.

Will your pots fit in the oven? If your oven will go down to 65C (150F) You can get great temp control. I usually start a little low and slowly ramp up. If they won’t both fit at the same time it would be worth it to do them one at a time.

A decent thermometer is a must. This is my favorite: http://thermoworks.com/products/low_cost/rt301wa.html It’s currently on sale. The display is on the end so you don’t have to bend over to read it. It’s nearly as fast and accurate as the Thermapen and MUCH cheaper.

PS Just caught your last post, ozonized is nothing to brewing, we’re going to boil it anyway. Are you sure about the water? Around here spring water means filtered tap water with a small amount of spring water added.

I think a good mashtun would solve a good bit of my problems. I ave waaaay to much trub and husk material in my beer. That's probably causing the off flavors. I don't think I'm going to BIAB anymore.

 

[Yooper]

I think a good mashtun would solve a good bit of my problems. I ave waaaay to much trub and husk material in my beer. That's probably causing the off flavors. I don't think I'm going to BIAB anymore.

While grain and husk in the boil aren't good, if the water isn't giving you the correct mash pH you won't fix the off flavors.

I don't BIAB, but many do with great success.

I'd really suggest buying reverse osmosis water or distilled water, and adding 1 teaspoon of calcium chloride to it, and following the water primer linked to above. If your mash pH is too high, you'll have the exact symptoms you're talking about and that is most certainly water related.

 

[Dynachrome]

Mash at lower temps.

I go hotter, I like the red characterists in some of my brews - not all. I mash hotter for the tanins - etc,