Attempting 40%+ ABV beer... "Barley Brandy"

[biochemedic]

And I dunno... can you really pull almost 70% of the water out of a beer by freezing??

I've done a freeze concentration once on a 11% and change braggot...turned three 22 oz bombers into a single one, so I know at least a 66% concentration is possible...I estimated my final at ~34%.

To answer one of the OP's other questions, yes, the final product will be a little thicker in mouthfeel, but I didn't find the one I did syrupy. It was actually quite good, if not a bit sweet...it was kind of like a cordial (and of course, had to be drank like one due to the ABV!)

 

[KYB]

After I do mine I am going to try to get a university lab to test the before and after ABV content. Hopefully I can get that done, and we will see how accurate everyone is in their testing, by comparing these formulas thrown around to the actual percentage. I am also interested in how accurate the formula is by using the OG and FG to get ABV in normal beers.

 

[bill42]

just wondering, would you use the 099 super high gravity yeast on the IIPA even if you werent doing the barley brandy? What are your experiences with that strain

 

[Cape Brewing]

No, probably not. I always just use US-05 on that IPA and have never had and issue with it finishing. I have used 099 a couple of times with pretty solid resukts. It is a pretty clean yeast. That said, I've never pushed it like I'm talking about with this experiment

 

[ReverseApacheMaster]

I've done a freeze concentration once on a 11% and change braggot...turned three 22 oz bombers into a single one, so I know at least a 66% concentration is possible...I estimated my final at ~34%.

To answer one of the OP's other questions, yes, the final product will be a little thicker in mouthfeel, but I didn't find the one I did syrupy. It was actually quite good, if not a bit sweet...it was kind of like a cordial (and of course, had to be drank like one due to the ABV!)

The problem is that as you freeze concentrate around 0F you start losing alcohol with the water that freezes. Every pass takes more alcohol with the water. You will still concentrate the liquid down and increase the ABV to an extent but you start having diminishing returns once you hit around 20%. The lower temp you freeze at, the fewer passes you need to take and the less alcohol will come out with the water.

To the OP -- something to think about when you concentrate that much is all the unintended things you are going to concentrate. Any minerals in the water you use will be concentrated and reach the threshold to be detected as flavors. Over time it seems to become worse. So you will definitely want to use as clean of a water as you can without messing up the mash.

 

[Hex]

After I do mine I am going to try to get a university lab to test the before and after ABV content. Hopefully I can get that done, and we will see how accurate everyone is in their testing, by comparing these formulas thrown around to the actual percentage. I am also interested in how accurate the formula is by using the OG and FG to get ABV in normal beers.

I see no reason why you couldn't get accurate ABV readings with a 0.01g triple beam balance and a pycnometer...

 

[Cape Brewing]

To the OP -- something to think about when you concentrate that much is all the unintended things you are going to concentrate. Any minerals in the water you use will be concentrated and reach the threshold to be detected as flavors. Over time it seems to become worse. So you will definitely want to use as clean of a water as you can without messing up the mash.

I recently received a full water report on my water and it is fairly low across the board in terms of minerals so I don't think it'll be a problem altough it is a good point. That said, given what this would likely ultimately taste like, I don't know that anyone would be able to pick out those kind of flavors.

Unfortunately the day got away from me yesterday and I didnt get a chance to get the IIIPA done... Which... Is probably a good thing because now I can build up the 099 starter even more before throwing that to the sugar-wolves.

 

[the_bird]

Probably more relevant is that you're going to be at about triple the recommended concentration of Oxiclean.

 

[Cape Brewing]

I see what you did there. Clever.


Ps. It was Stah San

 

[Cape Brewing]

1090 IIIPA done. I am gonna pitch US-05 so I have that huge initial yeast cake and I am going to keep building up my 099 starter.

 

[tdogg]

this.... this is awesome.

have you read the article in BYO magazine where the guy brewed and all grain beer at 20+ ABV? he brewed a super high grav wort (over 1.2 if i remember correctly) and canned it in canning jars. then he made a 1 gallon starter in his primary, and added 1 gallon of his super high grav wort at a time. it makes sense because a super high grav environment stresses the yeast too much, and staggering the wort additions keeps the gravity relatively low and keeps the yeast active.

i may have to try an eisbeir next winter. MN winters dip well below -20 F on a regular basis.

 

[motobrewer]

1090 IIIPA done. I am gonna pitch US-05 so I have that huge initial yeast cake and I am going to keep building up my 099 starter.

1.090 does not warrant the extra "I".

i'll give you this cape - one thing i like about you is the extreme lack of time between talk and action.

also, babalu's "dahkness" turned out fantastic.

 

[Cape Brewing]

Yeah, maybe you're right but I usually give it the extra "I" for the 10% ABV as well as the 240 calculated IBUs.

 

[Inodoro_Pereyra]

Sorry to hijack this thread, but I have 2 (probably very dumb) questions, that are "somehow" on topic:

1. For what I read (zero personal experience here), after eisbocking, the resulting beer has little to no hop flavor. How do you get the 240 IBU?

2. Also for what I read, an IPA is an India Pale Ale. A IIPA is an Imperial IPA. What does the third "I" stand for? "Intense"?

 

[TastySalmon]

Not to burst a bubble (because I do think this is cool and maybe possible), but I think there might be some legal issues here. Freeze distilling is still home distilling which is generally a felony. Granted, the federal government DOES allow you to distill, but the final product volume is about a gallon I think. Officer Joe Schmoe with his GED may not know this and bust your face with a baton and throw you in a slammer.

Ice distilling is the original form of distillation and is actually very old. Now in your case, the flavor might be a little different...

 

[ArcaneXor]

Not to burst a bubble (because I do think this is cool and maybe possible), but I think there might be some legal issues here. Freeze distilling is still home distilling which is generally a felony.

According to TTB information that was provided to Basic Brewing Radio, they don't consider freezing a form of distillation (which it is not) and don't have a problem with it.

I think you are more likely to be arrested for having a wort chiller than a gallon of beer in the freezer.

 

[jeepinjeepin]

According to TTB information that was provided to Basic Brewing Radio, they don't consider freezing a form of distillation (which it is not) and don't have a problem with it.

I think you are more likely to be arrested for having a wort chiller than a gallon of beer in the freezer.

+1 that's where I heard it.

 

[IrregularPulse]

Agreed, freeze distillation has already been confirmed as legal on these boards by James Spencer.

 

[RobWalker]

According to TTB information that was provided to Basic Brewing Radio, they don't consider freezing a form of distillation (which it is not) and don't have a problem with it.

I think you are more likely to be arrested for having a wort chiller than a gallon of beer in the freezer.

In the UK, authorities generally turn a blind eye to it anyway, providing you're not going all homer simpson beer baron and selling it or producing large quantities. This info came from the body that governs it too, so don't worry too much.

Also, it's definitely possible, so good luck!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...er-Sink-The-Bismarck-goes-sale-55-bottle.html

 

[Homebrewtastic]

Not to burst a bubble (because I do think this is cool and maybe possible), but I think there might be some legal issues here. Freeze distilling is still home distilling which is generally a felony. Granted, the federal government DOES allow you to distill, but the final product volume is about a gallon I think. Officer Joe Schmoe with his GED may not know this and bust your face with a baton and throw you in a slammer.

Ice distilling is the original form of distillation and is actually very old. Now in your case, the flavor might be a little different...

Freeze CONCENTRATION is not illegal. Nor is it the same thing as distillation.

 

[Homebrewtastic]

I have had the same thought and alluded to that earler about getting the monstrosity to really dry out. I would love to know if BrewDog went this route. I would also be really interested if any of Brewdog's really big beers (Bismark and History) are actually drinkable. I don't know if they were simply shooting for ABV or ABV with something that was actually drinkable... Those are two very different things.

From what I read History's base style was a golden strong ale. Which leads me to believe they indeed used a larger percentage of simple sugar which probably kept it from being too sweet.

 

[Cape Brewing]

It really isnt the "sweet" i am worried about a much as a really thick mouthfeel. I don't want it to be like maple syrup once the water is pulled out.... and at this point, I really don't think it will be.

I am only HOPING that this thing ends up mildly drinkable. Like I was saying a few posts ago, I am really just doing it as a learnig experience to see if it CAN be done (and I know it can), HOW it can be done and then, once I make it, I am hoping to have learned enough that I can possibly shoot for a much better version 2.0.

 

[Hex]

Throwing this in the mix from Wiki:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fractional_freezing

 

[Cape Brewing]

I shifted gears at least a little bit as I was planning on using the 099 on the IIIPA to build up that starter and just pitch a bunch of packets of US-05 for the initial run at the U wort... but... I didn't think my 099 starter was big enough yet for the 10 gallons of 1090 IIIPA so I just went with the US-05 in the IIIPA.

Not a big deal but now I have to build up that 099 starter a ton...

Debating if I want to just make 10 gallons of a basic pale (something that won't be dependant on a speciality yeast) and pitch my 099 starter... OR... just double up the starter I already have going.

Debates.. debates...

I am thinking about doing the first U batch maybe Monday (I have the day off for the holiday) and by then, I should be able to rack the IIIPA off the US-05 and use that cake.

I'll give that a few days and then pitch the 099. In the mean time, I'll get some more 099 starters going.

 

[wildwest450]

Give up, you'll never best the chubby nurse.


_

 

[TheDudeLebowski]

I shifted gears at least a little bit as I was planning on using the 099 on the IIIPA to build up that starter and just pitch a bunch of packets of US-05 for the initial run at the U wort... but... I didn't think my 099 starter was big enough yet for the 10 gallons of 1090 IIIPA so I just went with the US-05 in the IIIPA.

Not a big deal but now I have to build up that 099 starter a ton...

Debating if I want to just make 10 gallons of a basic pale (something that won't be dependant on a speciality yeast) and pitch my 099 starter... OR... just double up the starter I already have going.

Debates.. debates...

I am thinking about doing the first U batch maybe Monday (I have the day off for the holiday) and by then, I should be able to rack the IIIPA off the US-05 and use that cake.

I'll give that a few days and then pitch the 099. In the mean time, I'll get some more 099 starters going.

So what's the gravity at????.....

 

[Cape Brewing]

Give up, you'll never best the chubby nurse.


_

LOL... Uhh, I don't drool on myself regularly so I think I already have.

 

[Cape Brewing]

So what's the gravity at????.....

Lower than Paul's current U brew.


I would also like to point out how refreshing it is to have a thread go this long without it being totally nuked by our rotund medical professional HBT colleague.

Rumor has it he's lost his phone (probably under one of his chins) so his on-the-fly HBT posting has been dramatically reduced.

I, for one, enjoy the tranquility.

 

[the_bird]

It's a thread in the technical section, so The Narc will bitch-slap us if this gets too

So, maybe I missed this. Are you doing the whole "add simple sugars after fermentation has already kicked off" thing when you brew the U? Or, are all of your fermentables coming from the mash?

 

[Cape Brewing]

PFFT... Narc... please, he's too busy waxing his muttons and ironing his hop-vine cowboys shirt, gettin' ready for the NHC. We got nuthin' to worry 'bout from the Narc for like a month.

Uhhh... to answer your question... a little of both...

I am planning on having the overwhelming majority of the fermentables coming from the mash but 1) I'm going to mash as low as I can get away with and 2) I AM going to add maple syrup in post fermentation's start like Orca and Flounder did.

One reason I say "a little of both" though is that I want to make TWO batches of the U wort and try to knock them both down at least a little with huge US-05 cakes before letting the 099 loose on it.

So... just hypothetically (making up numbers)...

- U batch 1 is 4 gallons at 1200 without the maple syrup.
- pitch it on a huge US-05 cake and that brings it down to 1140
- Rack to a large 099 cake...
- meantime, brew U batch # 2 and same thing... pitch a huge US-05 slug.
- Hopefully the 099 will bring the first U batch down under 1100 reasonably quickly.
- Then... just keep feeding that batch with syrup additions... more 099 slugs... O2 and then infusions of the U batch #2.