Attempting 40%+ ABV beer... "Barley Brandy"

[SittingDuck]

Fear of Revvy's airlock post is why I filled my last post with seems like and possibly.

But according to Cape, this airlock activity is not just change in temp or cat bumping it. Unless his hydrometer is broken.

 

[Cape Brewing]

Trust me... I get the airlock situation... But like I was saying before, this beer has sat for months in a spot that keeps it a consistant 65 degrees and the water I used to dilute was the same temp... And it was four freakin days ago. I dont think the water is still adjusting temp. The beer has had months to sit and off-gas so I was confident when I got airlock activity, especially as much as I am getting, that something was active. It is still popping pretty often and the temp has risen up to 69 on its own.... So, again, I'm going to go out on a limb and guess it is fermenting again.

Plus there is the whole 8-9 point drop in gravity.

 

[homebeerbrewer]

I don't think Revvy would waste his time in this thread.

Brian, why in the hell would you dilute the beer if you're shooting for a higher gravity? Isn't that defeating the purpose?

 

[TheBreweryUnderground]

He's going to eisen it all off anyway so added water isn't a big deal, as long as he can actually eisen enough. I'm really interested to hear how trying to eisen 50% of a beer goes. I'd like to do something similar when my pipeline is built up to try and make a hop liquor, although I'm not sure how the hops would like getting so much oxygen post fermentation.

 

[homebeerbrewer]

Yeah, but eisening with added water. He won't be at 50%, but rather way below that.

 

[Cape Brewing]

Remind me to hit you in the temple with a hammer next time I see you

 

[homebeerbrewer]

What's that gonna do? Hitting me with a hammer still won't get you to 50%.

 

[motobrewer]

step 1: make 17% beer
step 2: add water
step 3: ??????
step 4: 40% beer

underpants gnomes are wise.

 

[Cape Brewing]

I will take things step by step. I got to see if this still keeps fermenting. If it doesn't, I'm dead in the water. I also have to try it again and see if the current teast activity has sucked up the oxygen and the perhaps the oxidized foavor it had now. If it doesn't, I'm dead in the water.

If I can get it to dry out and lose the cardboard flavor, then I will freeze concentrate it as far as I can fet it to go. My starting volume, I can't imagine, is actually going to matter because what should ultimately determine how much I can concentrate it is the ABV.

 

[homebeerbrewer]

ABV is Alcohol By Volume. If you add water, you add volume, reducing the ABV.

I'll bring the hammer next time I come down, since you're too lazy to come up here.

 

[SittingDuck]

Right, but the freezing removes water, and therefore volume, thus increasing the abv. Theoretically, removing 5, 10, or 20 gallons is all one and the same, the only difference being time to freeze.

Practically, of course, removing that much percentage of liquid to that high an abv creates a number of difficulties, but from an academic perspective, more water should have no effect other than more ice to pull out.

 

[homebeerbrewer]

True, but will freezing pull 50% of the water out? Maybe. But, lets say that he has 20% ABV with 10 gallons. He adds 5 gallons. Now his ABV is less. My simple brain calculates that to 15% ABV. Now, he freezes it, draws off 50% of the water, and winds up with 30% ABV. Sure, it's higher than the 20% he started with, but it's still less than the 40% he could have had if he got it to 20%, then froze it.

 

[SittingDuck]

But I think the limiting fact is not the volume, but the abv. In other words, I think pulling 50% or even 75% of the volume out is less of an issue than getting the liquid to freeze at reasonable temps beyond a certain abv (the reason you can leave vodka in the fridge and not beer).

Of course, I'm talking out my @ss, since I have never tried pulling 50-75% of the water out of anything, or making 40% eisbock. But academically...

Take colonial applejack. Start with cider, at what 5%? 10%? Freeze concentrated to 30-40%? That's way more than 50% water removed.

Of course, I'm not Thomas Jefferson either, so again, hello, I'm a talking @ss.

 

[wolfstar]

My two cents, why do a batch size that small? If you have 5 gallons of your 1200 post-boil wort, that's still only going to be about 2-2.5 gallons of final product when all is said and done.

You really want to do all this work to end up with a gallon and a half of "freeze-whiskey"?

Yup...not much different than AppleJack...please be careful...

 

[Cape Brewing]

True, but will freezing pull 50% of the water out? Maybe. But, lets say that he has 20% ABV with 10 gallons. He adds 5 gallons. Now his ABV is less. My simple brain calculates that to 15% ABV. Now, he freezes it, draws off 50% of the water, and winds up with 30% ABV. Sure, it's higher than the 20% he started with, but it's still less than the 40% he could have had if he got it to 20%, then froze it.

We get all of that Rick... But there is no magic law that says you have to take 50% of the water out. I'm going to take as much as I can out through the freeze concentrating process. Like we're saying, the main limiting factor should basically only be ABV. It'll get to a point whete the ABV is so high, i wont be able to freeze it any more.

Let's just say the limit is 45% abv for arguments sake and short of using liquid nitrogen, I wont be able to freeze it any more once it hits that point. In that scenario, it doesn't matter what the volume is I start with. If I start with five gallons of 20% abv, in theory, I'll only be able to remove a little more than 50%. If I start with 10 gallons of 10% abv, I should be able to remove around 75%. And they'll both get me to the same spot.

 

[Cape Brewing]

Yup...not much different than AppleJack...please be careful...

Throughout this thread I've said that I absolutely want this to actually taste ok but this really just an experiment to 1) see if I can learn anything about fermenting out high ABV beers and I think, personally, I have learned a few things and 2) see if I can learn anything about freeze concentration (and we haven't gotten to that point yet).

This was never about just trying to make something that would make people fall down. Buying a bottle of rum would have been a lot easier.

 

[motobrewer]

i think he meant it regarding the fact that freeze distillation also concentrates bad things like methanol. not that I think there's a good chance of you going blind.

 

[Cape Brewing]

Got it...

yeah, not too worried.

I'll make PaultheNurse try it first.

 

[bluemoose]

i think he meant it regarding the fact that freeze distillation also concentrates bad things like methanol. not that I think there's a good chance of you going blind.

Well, at least not from the beer.

 

[SittingDuck]

So, Cape, what's your plan now? You were going to freeze as soon as it hit 20%, but now that you've diluted, your FG and abv will be different. So do you have a new target, or are you basically just going to see where it settles out and freeze then?

 

[Yunus]

i think he meant it regarding the fact that freeze distillation also concentrates bad things like methanol. not that I think there's a good chance of you going blind.

Concentrating perhaps but it's not adding any quantity not already in the mix. The only danger would be if the freezing point of methanol is lower than ethanol in which case you would be concentrating methanol more so than ethanol.

In any case, just have some vodka handy during the test. If your not sure, start drinking vodka. Ethanol is processed the same as methanol by your body and it can only do so much at one time.

Seriously though, I'm not a doctor but that's what I have been told is the treatment and I'm sure they will charge you more than top shelf vodka to give you an IV of an ethanol solution.

 

[Cape Brewing]

Maybe I'm being nieve but I'm not too worried as this is the same method that BrewDog has used to get their beers up off the charts and End of History is 55% ABV. They sell it and again, maybe I'm being nieve but I am assuming they wouldn't be selling something that could kill people.

Unless they're scrubbing methanol out of it somehow and I don't think they are.

 

[Yunus]

Maybe I'm being nieve but I'm not too worried as this is the same method that BrewDog has used to get their beers up off the charts and End of History is 55% ABV. They sell it and again, maybe I'm being nieve but I am assuming they wouldn't be selling something that could kill people.

Unless they're scrubbing methanol out of it somehow and I don't think they are.

They are probably not scrubbing it, but I wouldn't be surprised if they send out a sample to have it lab tested to verify.

 

[motobrewer]

Maybe I'm being nieve but I'm not too worried as this is the same method that BrewDog has used to get their beers up off the charts and End of History is 55% ABV. They sell it and again, maybe I'm being nieve but I am assuming they wouldn't be selling something that could kill people.

Unless they're scrubbing methanol out of it somehow and I don't think they are.

i don't think there's anything at all to worry about, personally. other people may and will disagree.

 

[BrewsCampbell]

Methanol is not produced during beer fermentation.

Therefore freeze distillation will not be concentrating something that's not there.

Yay for not going blind!

 

[motobrewer]

Methanol is not produced during beer fermentation.

Therefore freeze distillation will not be concentrating something that's not there.

Yay for not going blind!

i'm pretty sure this post is entirely, 100%, false.

i have nothing to back this up.

 

[wooda2008]

Grain distillers have to throw away the "heads" of a run because it's methanol.

Just sayin'

 

[Nashbrewer]

This about wine which on average has more methanol produced than beer:

The lethal dose of methanol is at least 100 ml that is equal to about 80000 mg or you need 27000 liters of mash at least to get that amount.

http://homedistiller.org/intro/methanol/methanol

You would have to do some serious brewing and concentrating to get a dangerous level.

 

[Cape Brewing]

And just for the record, I did NOT mash 27,000 liters.

... before anyone asks.

 

[homebeerbrewer]

But you probably could have...