At Knockout???

[BrooZer]

In John Palmers book he often mentions only putting half of the malt extract in at the begining of the boil and the putting the other half in AFTER the boil (knockout) and letting it disolve for 10 minutes.

Does anyone use this method and what effect does it have on the beer?

 

[brewt00l]

http://homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=16936&highlight=late+addition

 

[the_bird]

I've heard of it, but never done it. I've done late extract additions, but always boiled for ten or fifteen minutes. The idea is that you're going to have a very light beer, because most of the extract isn't going to be subject to boiled very long and therefore won't darken much (the Maillard reaction). In addition, your hops utilization will be much higher, since you'll be boiling with a much lower gravity.

The ten minutes should be enough to sterilize the extract. The hot break is already removed from extract (at least most of it) from the manufacturing process.

So, it's a legitimate techique (hell, if Palmer says it's good - that's good enough for me!), but I haven't done an addition right at flameout myself. That's just a personal thing, I have a hard time sitting and waiting like that; the heat's off, I'm honed in on getting the wort cooled as quick as possible, I don't want to wait ten minutes for the extract to dissolve and sanitize (even though I recognize that I'm being completely illogical).

 

[Evan!]

I've never done it either. I add my extract late in the boil, usually @ 15 mins from flameout...just to cut down on the caramelization and that trademark extract-ey taste. But yeah, if palmer says it's cool, then I'd buy into it. In fact, I'm thinking that the next time I do a honey brew, I'll add it at flameout instead of 15 mins prior.

 

[BrooZer]

I've never done it either. I add my extract late in the boil, usually @ 15 mins from flameout...just to cut down on the caramelization and that trademark extract-ey taste. But yeah, if palmer says it's cool, then I'd buy into it. In fact, I'm thinking that the next time I do a honey brew, I'll add it at flameout instead of 15 mins prior.

What is the Extract-ey taste?

 

[rdwj]

I actually got a reply from Palmer himself on the subject...

...the idea is that you avoid a prolonged high gravity boil, which improves your hop utilizaiton and decreases maillard reactions that lead to wort darkening and extract twang off-flavors.

You don't necessarily have to turn the burner off and not boil the extract (you can boil it a short time if you want to), the idea is that merely heating it to pasteurization temperatures for a couple minutes is sufficient to sanitize the extract before cooling and pitching. I said 10 minutes in the book (p. 213), which is conservative to the point of being excessive. Earlier in Chapter 7, p. 82, I say at 5 minutes before the end of the boil.

So, in conlcusion, anytime at the end of the boil, for a couple minutes is sufficient. I should have been more clear in the book. Oh well, next time.

As an example, Milk is pastuerized by heating to 160F for at least 15 seconds.
Not pasteurizing the extract will not hurt you, but the beer fermentation could suffer from beer-spoilage bacteria or wild yeasts, which are probably not desired.

 

[BrooZer]

I actually got a reply from Palmer himself on the subject...

so what exactly is extract-twang off flavor?? will a novice be able to taste it?

 

[Waboom!!]

dry taste and ciderey especially from corn sugar

 

[greg75]

dry taste and ciderey especially from corn sugar

I'm drinking a Dead Guy Ale extract clone as I read this, and your description is spot on. The brew still tastes good, but it has an extra something that the commercially available version from Rogue doesn't. I'm going to be brewing my first all grain brew hopefully in four weeks (waiting for the Wisconsin winter to subside a bit). I can't wait to compare the difference of the two methods.

 

[JnJ]

I'm glad you brought this up. I was wondering the same thing. I always boil the extract the whole time, so when I read Palmer's notes on this I was confused. I guess I'll give it a try on my next batch.

 

[the_bird]

dry taste and ciderey especially from corn sugar

I'm not entirely sure that's right. The cidery taste you get from too much corn (or table) sugar is distinct from what people describe as the "twang". I can't say that I've ever noticed the twang, but I've only brewed with LME (which seems to be the prime culprit) once or twice, and that was very early on. But, I know that people have gotten that indescribable flavor from recipes without any added corn sugar, so it seems to be something else.

 

[KopyKat]

Does anyone use this method and what effect does it have on the beer?

Before I went all grain this is the method I used. At knockout. I cut the flame, added the DME or LME and stirred it in leaving a whirlpool to settle the trub. After 15 min or so, I chilled the wort. Great hops utilization and better color management for light beers.

 

[BrooZer]

So from this thread, would you all agree that the best extract to use is DME instead of LME.

ALso "at knockout" may be beneficial for lighter or hoppier beers rather than a dark malty beer.

 

[rdwj]

So form this thread, would you all agree that the best extract to use is DME instead of LME.

ALso "at knockout" may be beneficial for lighter or hoppier beers rather than a dark malty beer.

Ya, I think it's generally accepted that DME is better. LME is comparable IF it's fresh, but you will get darker colors. The knockout thing sounds logical

 

[redpale]

In addition, your hops utilization will be much higher, since you'll be boiling with a much lower gravity.

Sort of related question, I think, having to do with hop utilization in extract brews using partial boils:

Maybe I'm trying to think outside the box (hell, I don't even know where or how big the box is yet) but if hop utilization is diminished in a partial boil to begin with - and is further diminished in a high gravity boil... what would be the effect of boiling just your hops in water, for maybe 5 or 10 mins - and then adding your extracts for the remainder of the boil?

Would boiling the hops in a low gravity solution (water) initially, compensate for the partial boil and high gravity for the remaining boil time??

 

[the_bird]

I'm not sure how you would get the math exactly right, but that's the basic idea behind a late extract addition. Extract only needs to be sterilized; there's no hot break to speak of (certainly not like with AG brewing). So, yeah, you could boil in just water for a while, then add the extract - or do what a lot of people do. Assuming you're doing a 2.5 gallon boil, add half of your extract at the beginning. The gravity of the wort will be more-or-less the same as if you were doing a full wort boil (maybe add a little less than half the extract). Ten minutes to go, add the rest. That's long enough to sterilize the extract, and you've already gotten most of the bittering from your hops. You'll also get a lighter color.

I don't think there's anything wrong with what you propose (10 minutes of just water and what you've steeped from the specialty grains), I'm just not sure that it'll work any better than the more-traditional late extract addition that I described. I guess I prefer my method since I suspect it'll result in a lighter color.

 

[redpale]

I'm not sure how you would get the math exactly right,

Yeah, that part would take some serious figuring. Somewhere early on, I can't remember where exactly. I read that a full 60 min boil (extract) will always make a better beer. The idea of late addition extract is apparently sound but up until I heard you all explain it it didn'r seem so.

I have to remember the KISS principle - I think I'm thinking too much!

Thnkx

 

[greg75]

So from this thread, would you all agree that the best extract to use is DME instead of LME.

ALso "at knockout" may be beneficial for lighter or hoppier beers rather than a dark malty beer.

I've personally had better luck with the DME over LME. I don't know if it's in my head or not, but I can tell a difference. In fact, I went into homebrewing with the presumption that LME was of higher quality, and quickly found my tastebuds disagreed.

 

[the_bird]

I read that a full 60 min boil (extract) will always make a better beer.

Some of that discussion centers around "no boil" beer kits, which are generally not of a terribly high quality.

In addition, when you hear people talk about a "full boil," know that they are referring to "full" meaning "I'm boiling all the wort," not the time element.

 

[redpale]

when you hear people talk about a "full boil," know that they are referring to "full" meaning "I'm boiling all the wort," not the time element.

Thanks, bird - that much I do understand- I was using full specifically regarding time in this case and realize that full also refers to volume.

The next step in my progression is headed toward boiling a larger volume of the wort - I just did one last night in a 4 gal. pot where I've been using a 2 gal. Long time to cool to pitchable temp.

 

[homebrewer_99]

I am conducting a brewing experiment as we speak, er, type...

Among the things I've read include:

Uncle Charlie's 3rd ed - the max hop utilization (30%) occurs at 60 minutes.
At the same time...15% at 30 mins...AHA!! 1 oz at 60 mins equals 2 oz at 30 mins...AHHHH...

I usually boil only 1.5 gals and use 1 lb of DME...which gives me a low gravity and more hop utilization.

So...my HW experiment was boil 1.5 gals and only 1 oz of Wheat DME and twice the hops...boil for 30 mins remove from heat...add 5 lbs wheat DME...let steep for 15 mins to pasteurize...it's still in the primary gurgling away...

I'll update you as I go...

 

[BrooZer]

I am conducting a brewing experiment as we speak, er, type...

Among the things I've read include:

Uncle Charlie's 3rd ed - the max hop utilization (30%) occurs at 60 minutes.
At the same time...15% at 30 mins...AHA!! 1 oz at 60 mins equals 2 oz at 30 mins...AHHHH...

I usually boil only 1.5 gals and use 1 lb of DME...which gives me a low gravity and more hop utilization.

So...my HW experiment was boil 1.5 gals and only 1 oz of Wheat DME and twice the hops...boil for 30 mins remove from heat...add 5 lbs wheat DME...let steep for 15 mins to pasteurize...it's still in the primary gurgling away...

I'll update you as I go...

thanks for the info, keep us posted on how it works out.

 

[Bobby_M]

What this really means is that you can shorten your extract brew day by simply buying more hops. You COULD boil twice the hops in plain water for 30 minutes, flame out, add your extract and aroma hops and start cooling right away.

There's another interesting relationship to note. When someone says that you get more hop utilization from doing a full boil (6 gallons), I agree, but only in the sense that if you add your extract at first sign of boil, higher water volumes will result in more hop utilization.

Therefore, if you do a very late extract addition (15 or less minutes prior to flameout), it shouldn't matter how much water you're boiling the hops in. That is, given say 1oz of hops boiling in 1 gallon of plain water for 60 minutes should have the same IBU contribution as the same 1oz boiling in 6 gallons for 60 minutes (because the SG is exactly the same).

That said, I think the absolute cheapest way into brewing is low volume boils, hop at first boil, extract addition very late. Why? Less cooling costs, less hops required, less fuel used. I wonder if it tastes different?