Argh. Another IC v. PC chilling system thread

[user 246304]

Again, argh. Please help me decide.

15 gallon batches, Spike 20 gallon vessels. 2 Chugger pumps available.

I've never used anything but immersion chillers, and always got good result on batches up to 12 gallons, in keggles. I develop a trub cone through a whirlpool so agitating the IC to more evenly cool the wort down is not possible. Once I slipped the IC in the hot wort (post-WP), I did all I could to have no more movement at all in the BK.

Preservation of volatile oils - aromas, flavors - is paramount to me, in choosing a setup.

So is clarity into the fermentor - I'll be employing a horizontal sightglass after the valve in the BK (from Brewhardware.com).

This limitation on agitating the IC is the only reason I revived such a topic. Sorry if I'm being redundant here and if so, mods, please feel to do with the thread what you will.

Currently, I have the stuff to build a 50' copper double-coil IC. I've also got the Duda 30-plate B23A on my cart with them. Help me decide, pretty please?

 

[d3track]

Why not whirlpool while chilling, then let the cone settle once chilled, and into the fermenter?

 

[augiedoggy]

Why not whirlpool while chilling, then let the cone settle once chilled, and into the fermenter?

defeats the purpose of keeping the trub out of a plate chiller if one goes that route.. with the IC I believe it takes forever and a day to get the hot wort in the center to cool with only whirlpooling

 

[user 246304]

Thanks d3. I find that I can't get an effective WP if an IC is in the kettle. I try to have as little obstructing the whirlpool as possible. Is that what you meant?

 

[d3track]

Thanks d3. I find that I can't get an effective WP if an IC is in the kettle. I try to have as little obstructing the whirlpool as possible. Is that what you meant?

Yeah, I was thinking about whirlpooling with the IC, the "Jamil" style.

I went CFC out of worries that I would clog or not be able to get a PC clean.

 

[user 246304]

Yeah, I was thinking about whirlpooling with the IC, the "Jamil" style.

I went CFC out of worries that I would clog or not be able to get a PC clean.

Oh right, gotcha. I saw that just a week or so ago, pretty ingenious. I'm not sold, though, I have to be honest, that you get as effective a WP/tight trub cone, when you're whirlpooling with nothing obstructing the action. Any eddy, etc., means loss to or looseness of the trub cone, IMO.

I hear you, despite my earlier "yes" vote on the PC, that's what's holding me up. I tell you, if I know I could drop 100' of IC coil in the vessel, and, without having to move it, get down to 60 (or lower, with a recirc/ice bath), I'd be IC all the way. I loved what came out of the BK. Just not sure it works with the geometry of these vessels, and upwards of 15 gallons wort.

 

[user 246304]

So, what do you guys think of this. You've whirlpooled and you've allowed the wort to settle and develop a nice, tight trub cone.

You draw from the side into another vessel, also with a side pickup tube; you minimize HSA in the transfer. You start cooling through a plate chiller in a recirc, until you get a good, strong cold break. You allow that break to settle and using your dip tube, pull from above that cold break bed and begin the cooling phase in earnest, transferring to your fermentor.

Ideally, you've left behind trub, hops and cold break. You've had one, fairly gentle transfer into another vessel.

My goal is to transfer as clear a wort into the fermentor as possible. Amending some processes to deal with this on a larger scale. What do you think? One issue I see - the cooling recirc - how bad is it on cold break flocs? Does it beat the break up so badly you're defeating your purpose by making flecks and powder that end up in the fermentor?

 

[wyowolf]

Buy a filter for the PC and never worry about clogging it again... If you were just doing smaller batches I would say IC, but with 10 or more PC all day long...

https://www.brewershardware.com/1_5-Tri-Clover-Compatible-Strainer-with-3-OD-Body.html

 

[augiedoggy]

I have to say as well my IC never worked anywhere near as good as my plate chiller. Ive never used a CFC myself but they make sense especially for those who dont filter their wort.

 

[Dcpcooks]

I like to drop the ic into the kettle and whirlpool until I drop below 175. That stops the extraction of alpha acids. Then I let it settle and run it through the plate chiller to the fermentor.

I would consider a counterflow chiller based on what you've said so far.

 

[user 246304]

Great help you guys, thank you. Yeah, I was literally about to post that I'm not too much of a fan filtering anywhere along the chain....just do what I can to let wort and beer pass with as little of my heavy-hands intruding. So I do hear you, and hear the logic of the CFC under this criterion. I'm going to be looking into now.

Very much appreciated, brother brewers!

 

[hezagenius]

Just curious why you wouldn't whirlpool/chill with an IC to cool it quickly, then remove the IC and whirlpool more to get a trub cone?

 

[eric19312]

I am not sure what your concern is. I use IC in 12 gallon batches all the time. 50' 1/2" does the job but I am maybe annoyed after 50 batches that I didn't get a Jaded since seems like this guy is never going to wear out but probably costs me 10-15 min extra chilling time every brew day.

I use mainly pellet hops and they swim free. Have whirlpool return on my BK. Drop the IC in at 10 min left in the boil to sanitize and at same time I start circulating boiling wort through the pump and whirlpool return to sanitize that circuit. At flameout I turn on the water to the IC for about 1 minute which drops me to about 180. Water off. Whirlpool hops in. Circulate those hops for a few minutes to make sure all the pellets dissolve then I turn off the pump. I turn the pump back on for 15 seconds or so 2-3 times during the whirlpool/hopstand to resuspend. When hopstand is over I turn the water back on and run the pump until I reach pitching temperature. Pull out the IC and transfer. If I am in a hurry I pump trub, hops and all into the fermentor.

If I am not in a hurry I will run the whirlpool pump for a few minutes after removing the IC and then let the kettle settle for 10-15 min before slowly gravity feeding the wort into the fermentor.

Last weekend I got a had a minor inspiration while I was cleaning my mash tun and noticed the ring that Norcal supplies to support their false bottom fit in my BK so I tried using it as a hop dam. Wow it worked great. Here is a picture. And this was on a "I'm in a hurry just pumping everything to fermentor" brew day.

 

[user 246304]

Hi Eric,

Thanks (and thanks on your clarification re: probe placement, on the other thread).

I'm unhappy unless what I transfer into the fermentor looks like bottled beer. I don't believe I'm getting the best whirlpool I can unless the vessel is as unimpinged upon as possible, which is why I decided against any kind of Jamil or similar system. At the time, I accepted the temperature gradients inherit in a standard IC left immobile, for the clarity reason I spoke of above, wanting a tight trub cone with nothing left in the wort. I will grant it was close to 20 years ago but my memory on this, anyway, is pretty clear, no pun intended.

So now, I'm looking for a perfect temp throughout the wort transfer, with the wort itself being devoid of both hops, and as much cold break as possible. My thought (I opened another thread for this) was in the BK to steep, WP, settle; transfer off the trub cone to the MLT; recirc through chiller to 59F; transfer off the top of the break pile to the fermentor.

It seems to me that because I'll be whirlpooling hops, without any kind of "hop rocket" setup, I'm limited to a CFC over PC. But this is all completely a thought experiment only as I've lots I'm doing ahead of this part of the process.

 

[eric19312]

I'm unhappy unless what I transfer into the fermentor looks like bottled beer.

I hear you and I fiddled with different systems to improve beer clarity into fermentor myself. I tried whirlpool after chilling and letting settle and siphoning off top with autosiphon...that worked as well as anything I tried.

I made a homemade CFC with garden hose over a 3/8" copper tube. Fun build and did a nice job chilling. Straight into the fermentor the chilling hops tended to clog so I switched to returning to the kettle whirlpool like and got a nice cone. But my whirlpool hops flavor and aroma suffered immensely. Beautiful wort into fermentor and very disappointing beer in my glass. Not acceptable trade. My theory is that nothing beats an IC+pump in terms of getting the bulk wort from flameout to whirlpool temp quickly.

About this time I heard the first brulosophy experiment on trub when Marshal appeared on Basic Brewing Radio. Really...trub in fermentor seemed to be correlated with better product. Can't be true, but I believe this one has been repeated enough that I am satisfied it is not a problem to get trub into the fermentor and in it goes and with IC chilling I am back to being generally happy with my hoppy beers.

But, and everyone knows that everything that comes before the word "but" is irrelevant, if I were in your position, and thinking from your other posts that you are taking long view and willing to spend a little more now to be happy long term, instead of thinking PC vs CFC vs IC I'd go with an Jaded IC+whirlpool pump into a conical fermenter. Don't worry about pumping trub into your fermenter. Pump the whole damn kettle in there, wait a couple hours while you clean up and fermenter temp stabilizes, dump the trub from the fermenter and then pitch your yeast. Now you've got best of both worlds. Best chilling, clear wort in your fermenter. Guess you could complain that you can't see how clear the wort in your fermentor is but still, it would be clear as the wort sitting in your hydrometer on top of that pile of trub.

 

[user 246304]

These are great thoughts, thanks, Eric. You've given me a ton to consider. You're preservation of hop character - yes, of course. This was one that dropped off the map, and man, I'm so with you on this one.

On the cold break, you've spurred me to grab a couple from my bookshelf. I'll tell you, I've enjoyed reading Hough et al's Malting and Brewing Science over the years, and on cold break in the FV, basically, totally inconclusive. Not only was the amount of cold break that passed into the FV completely unrelated to the separation technique employed, but tasting panels went from preferring beers where the cold break had been totally removed, to preferring beers where only part of the break had been removed.

The only evidence that did seem to come up in tasting was among lighter or more delicate beers. Removal of break did seem to have an impact.

Your CCV solution is also a great one. I do see one in the future, when I can afford one. Two things stand in my way: One, I'm going nuts not brewing. I really want to get started as soon as I can, and build as I go. Two, I can't afford it right now, everything is going to all the rest. Three, given 2, see one.

I want to make sure I understand your recommendation (absent a CCV - it goes either into a sanke, or open fermentor). If I was going IC, I basically would do what I did before, which, depending on the beer, was to steep my whirlpool hops, whirlpool for about 5 minutes, then allow to settle for another 20-30 minutes. Cone now developed. I very carefully set a single-coil IC in the kettle, and as we were still hot, allow it to rest (whatever the time/temp sanitization mix was, can't recall - varies anyway with what temp I drop it at). After the IC was sanitized, I'd begin the cooling.

Doing this, I got an excellent break, and no hops or hot break escaped the cone. Wort was that kind of clarity I was looking for. In fact, I just manually stirred to develop the whirlpool, and it worked really well.

Maybe I'm just overthinking this? After all, I maximally did 12 gallon batches and in all honesty, will rarely hit 15 now. What do you think?

Now, sorry, I'd not clear on your whirlpool method, and what it was that you were doing, that really killed your late hop character? Do you mean, you pumped a whirlpool through, and it was the whirlpool itself that generally killed these hops in your finished beer? And when you say pump + IC, do you mean, pumped cold water through the IC, no whirlpool? Sorry, just a bit unclear and I'd really like to understand.

 

[plazola86]

You're way overthinking it. Just get a kettle hop filter and a plate chiller. What's your concern with this set up? You're not losing any aroma or flavor and your keeping all the hops in the filter just like you want? Am I missing something?

 

[eric19312]

Now, sorry, I'd not clear on your whirlpool method, and what it was that you were doing, that really killed your late hop character? Do you mean, you pumped a whirlpool through, and it was the whirlpool itself that generally killed these hops in your finished beer? And when you say pump + IC, do you mean, pumped cold water through the IC, no whirlpool? Sorry, just a bit unclear and I'd really like to understand.

I forgot part of what I tried. First I tried gravity flow through the CFC to the fermenter. Good a chilling but very slow. Hops not great. Fairly bitter, some flavor, not much aroma. Then I got a pump and built a return so I pumped through the CFC back into the kettle creating a whirlpool. That seemed to work better but it still took too long to drop the bulk wort temperature to the 170-180 I was aiming for. In end I decided to embrace the Jamil-o-chiller strategy and built my brewery around IC. I believe I've heard Jamil say on a podcast how he wished he could use IC in commercial brewing but they just aren't practical when you go beyond homebrew scale.

 

[user 246304]

I forgot part of what I tried. First I tried gravity flow through the CFC to the fermenter. Good a chilling but very slow. Hops not great. Fairly bitter, some flavor, not much aroma. Then I got a pump and built a return so I pumped through the CFC back into the kettle creating a whirlpool. That seemed to work better but it still took too long to drop the bulk wort temperature to the 170-180 I was aiming for. In end I decided to embrace the Jamil-o-chiller strategy and built my brewery around IC. I believe I've heard Jamil say on a podcast how he wished he could use IC in commercial brewing but they just aren't practical when you go beyond homebrew scale.

Great. Many thanks, Eric.

 

[user 246304]

You're way overthinking it. Just get a kettle hop filter and a plate chiller. What's your concern with this set up? You're not losing any aroma or flavor and your keeping all the hops in the filter just like you want? Am I missing something?

Yep, I'm sure I'm overthinking it. I accepted that's just a part of who I am, really, a long time ago.

I'm not a fan of blocking anything in the kettle, want the hops to boil freely. That's the reason for no filter. Nothing's set yet, though, which is why I'm inviting opinions. Thanks.

 

[user 246304]

By the way, just using this guy's design for the double coil, if I stick with a simple IC (and not something like Jamil's design). My first coil started at 50' and likely ended up with less than half. I'm laughing now at my wife's laughing at my ridiculousness, 20ish years ago, on a farm, kinking more and more of my "coil" and getting increasingly PO'ed.

uses compression fittings, I silver soldered, as I recall.

 

[user 246304]

Just recalled this, Lehr's build. Does anyone know if he's around much anymore? Anyone know what the 3rd tubing, without the garden hose fittings, is?

 

[user 246304]

I was going to join another thread, but I don't think that's kosher really, so please forgive some redundancy. It's getting to the heart, I hope:

On chilling, obviously. My bent has always been towards IC because it worked brilliantly for me a long time ago, accompanied only by manual whirlpooling and settling.

My regime: Usually at flameout, wp hop additions. Some steeping, perhaps, 5-10 minute wp, 20-30 min. settle. This is all hot temp, though how hot is variable. But I don't wp while chilling.

I don't wp with the IC in the vessel. It makes for a poor WP and cone, in my experience. The WP is in an empty vessel but for the wp dip tubes and small thermo probe. This rules out wp'ing with my pump, or something like the Jamil immersion-WP setup.

I know, I think, most of the arguments pros and cons of cold break into the fermentor. I'm just a freak about it and can't deal with it going in, can accept only the clearest possible wort transferred.

I could go with a CFC into a settling vessel, and rack off the top into the FV. Not out of the question. Opinions?

IC's are beautiful. However, the temp gradients, especially in the larger volumes I'll be dealing with, are no longer acceptable. I generally want to pitch ales much cooler than I used to, 59-60F, with free rise to 68 or so. So I need to know the wort I'm transferring is uniform in temp.

Clear wort, again. The only apparent way I've seen to get wort uniformly cooled with an IC was to agitate it in some way. I can't see how to do that, without disturbing the trub cone.

If this is another angle of the question and not merely a restatement (I hope), contributions invited and welcome.

 

[rizziot]

I use a CFC, whirlpool, and just let it settle out for a few minutes before I rack. Keeps most of the trub in the kettle and my fermenter relatively clean . Improved the quality of my beer a bit as well, however I am only a few years into brewing, so a lot of things have helped improve my quality haha!

Good luck!!

 

[day_trippr]

[...]Anyone know what the 3rd tubing, without the garden hose fittings, is?

Odds are it's a whirl-pooling return...

Cheers!

 

[user 246304]

I think it boils down to how tight I'm going to be about cold break into the fermentor. I know I'm being ridiculous, vacillating like this. I loved the beers I produced when it was just a simple IC, and a manual whirlpool for a very limited time, settle, IC gently in the now still kettle, transfer.

I am leery of wort cooling down as a flow, as opposed to as a whole; I can't find a way to agitate the IC and keep the clarity of what I'm doing; I honestly don't know what kind of difference there is between a "flow" of wort as in a CFC/PC and the "as a whole", e.g., mentioned by Jamil.

I really don't have too much of a problem with cold break into my ales, though I hate to send anything but crystal clear wort. I do, with something like a pilsner.

In other words, just like this tortured mess of my thoughts, I'm totally lost.

I am however, grateful you guys.

 

[user 246304]

Odds are it's a whirl-pooling return...

Cheers!

Thanks Trippr. That clears it up.

Alright, if you'll bear with me, this might be the crux of it:

Option 1: CFC

Flameout, WP x 5-10 minute. Or cool to whatever temp (e.g., 170F) and wp for 5-10 minutes.

Rest x 20-30 minutes, depending on desired hop stand and to allow settlement and cone development.

Startup coolant and recirc through BK, a second whirlpool.

Here's where I don't know. You just let the cone settle for a long time – and you start up another whirlpool. Doesn't this completely trash the cone, and don't you need to do another extended rest – in which case, though it's cold for most of the time, you may be overhopping?

Option 2: IC

WP'ing using the BK's WP port, with an IC, cannot get an effective whirlpool and cone due to turbulence around IC.

If I actually can get an effective whirlpool with the IC in the BK (and I would like to do it via my WP port on the kettle, not through a Jamil type build), game over, because for many reasons I like what an IC gives. Leaving everything behind in the BK, primarily.

I don't have experience with either approaches. As I've said, I manually whirlpooled, set the IC in once the cone was developed, and without recirc drained via gravity into FV. I'm sure there were temp gradients I didn't pay attention to back then, that I want to, now.

If you're still here, many thanks.

 

[eric19312]

If you want a nice cone with IC just leave the IC in until you hit target temp, then pull the IC while the pump is still running. Let pump run is few min...maybe 2 min or so...to reestablish the rotation of the wort, kill the pump and wait for the cone to form. Then transfer to the fermentor. For spectacularly clear wort into the fermentor use an autosiphon to pull wort from the top of the kettle into the fermentor, gradually sliding the siphon tube down toward the corner of the kettle.

 

[user 246304]

If you want a nice cone with IC just leave the IC in until you hit target temp, then pull the IC while the pump is still running. Let pump run is few min...maybe 2 min or so...to reestablish the rotation of the wort, kill the pump and wait for the cone to form. Then transfer to the fermentor. For spectacularly clear wort into the fermentor use an autosiphon to pull wort from the top of the kettle into the fermentor, gradually sliding the siphon tube down toward the corner of the kettle.

Great, thanks Eric. Please indulge this, because I know it's weird, but certain things are like a bee buzzing around upstairs. If I hear you:

Flameout, let's say, set IC in BK x 10 minutes. WP x 10 min. or cool to some agreeable temp (170, let's say), and WP x 10. Settle and hop stand.

Recirc/Cool. Once reaching pitch temp and with WP/pump still running, a mere couple minutes, enough to get WP flow, suffices to start a WP up again. Then kill the pump and wait (here's where I don't know how long, because I've never watched it) for cone to form.

Is that about right? Great, if so. My thing was that if I pulled the IC and restarted the WP, it would essentially be as long as I went the first time, and though cold, calculating impact on hop flavor and aroma was difficult. My WP rest as I did it was a hop stand, and the 20-20 minutes of resting was more than enough. Do you have a ballpark on how long a rest is required at our scale, to develop a proper cone?

Very cool on the auto-siphon. Had no idea whatsoever. I'm going to look into it. Thanks, Eric.

 

[d3track]

If you want a nice cone with IC just leave the IC in until you hit target temp, then pull the IC while the pump is still running. Let pump run is few min...maybe 2 min or so...to reestablish the rotation of the wort, kill the pump and wait for the cone to form. Then transfer to the fermentor. For spectacularly clear wort into the fermentor use an autosiphon to pull wort from the top of the kettle into the fermentor, gradually sliding the siphon tube down toward the corner of the kettle.

Probably the OP's best bet, and it is probably the second least complicated considering their goal. (the least complicated probably being something like the trub dam on the kettle port)