Are People Still Using the Baker's Yeast Method?

[Bilsch]

Why? because oxygen for hops is deadly!

And for certain delicate fresh grain flavors as well.

 

[brewbama]

I used the yeast method a cpl times prior to RIMS then went back to preboil. It worked fine.

I abandoned pre boil prior to RIMS due to having to hit a certain mash in temp. Now, I underlet somewhere just below my first step, begin the recirculating, and power the RIMS up to hit first step so hitting the mash in temp is less critical.

 

[MSK_Chess]

And for certain delicate fresh grain flavors as well.

Its really interesting. Mostly the Low Oxygen techniques have been published and promulgated by brewers brewing predominately German style Lagers as they attempted to emulate the awesome fresh taste of top notch European Lagers and Pilsners whose emphasis is predominately on malt. It appears to me to make even more sense to try to preserve the fresh hop flavours of other styles as these are essentially hop forward beers and very susceptible to oxygen ingress, from New Zealand Pale Ales, British Pale Ales right through to the outrageously highly hoped New England IPA's.

 

[PlinyTheMiddleAged]

The Low Ox techniques really do work on IPAs. Brewing IPAs that were only decent for a week or two at best is what led me down the rabbit hole. Now, even given my less than ideal methods, those same beers last months with zero to minimal fade.

PlinyTheMiddleAged

 

[hopjuice_71]

Probably the most vociferous critics of LODO are the ones who have never studied the literature. Lets get some scientific facts straight. Oxygen has the second-highest electronegativity of all reactive elements, second only to fluorine. It wants all the electrons, and it will take them whenever it can! I have yet to read a valid argument of why we should not take a holistic approach to oxygen ingress by employing various simple methods and techniques. Comments like, 'its a myth', 'it doesn’t matter', 'you cannot tell the difference anyway', are unscientific. Kunze, Bamford and other have elucidated on the subject and the consensus is that oxygen is bad for your beer. Now we can argue over degree if you like but its an established scientific fact. From the oxidation of lipids in the mash right through to the oxidation and polymerisation of polyphenol/protein complexes in the finished product. Take measures to reduce oxygen ingress and you will preserve flavour. We spend a lot of time and money on making beer, especially highly hopped beers and it makes absolute sense to limit oxygen ingress. Why? because oxygen for hops is deadly!

There is absolutely no question that these oxidation reactions happen. I'm a biochemist so this was a no-brainer for me and what led me to explore the LODO flavours in commercial beers. I also went all-in with LODO in my own brewing for a while. Surprisingly, it turns out I just didn't like the "delicate fresh grain flavours" that seem to define the "it" factor. I didn't like it in the commercial beers or in my own beers - and I did seem to have success achieving the target flavours in my own beers. Fine for me, I'm a hop head after all, which brings me to what I really learned.. ..your opinions on this may differ but I thought it would be useful to add to the discussion of the impact of LODO on hoppy beers. When I went full hot-side and cold-side LODO for ~6 months (many brews) the heavily hopped IPAs I was brewing had hugely better hop character and this lasted almost indefinitely.. ..well, at least the 3 months max that the kegs lasted.. ..without any distinct changes to their flavours. When I dropped LODO on the hot-side, but kept the obsessive cold-side LODO, IPAs brewed with the same recipe were the same in hoppy-ness and longevity. Notably, even a very small "oops" moment during packaging, which resulted in tiny amounts of air being introduced into one-half of a split batch, had major impacts on how that half tasted and lasted. What I am getting at is that I have serious doubts about how much is to be gained by LODO methods on the hot-side for hop-driven brews. But I am fully convinced that cold-side LODO is key to maximizing the hop-flavors of hop-dominated beers.

Ok, got a little off the thread topic so I guess I should also comment on the on the actual thread topic. During my hot-side LODO explorations I used both pre-boiling and yeast scavenging. Both seemed to work well. Personally, I found the yeast approach a little easier by not having to implement a cooling step after a pre-boil.

Cheers

 

[kh54s10]

Yeah HBT is notably anti-LODO as seen by Jay's comments. All of the good detailed information and actual helpful posters are over at low oxygen brewing forum.

You are taking a great leap saying that HBT is notably anti-LODO. Especially when comparing to a site that is specifically for LODO....

This statement to me is almost as bad as Jay's.

Personally I wonder the degree of improvement. And the rate of return. For me the investment in equipment required makes it a NO GO. I have never detected a significant oxidation in any of my beers, so I don't feel the need to try it. But that is me. As I stated in another thread. There is a segment of LODO proponents that make it seem that if you don't do LODO you are looked down on.....

Everyone's MMV!

 

[MSK_Chess]

There is absolutely no question that these oxidation reactions happen. I'm a biochemist so this was a no-brainer for me and what led me to explore the LODO flavours in commercial beers. I also went all-in with LODO in my own brewing for a while. Surprisingly, it turns out I just didn't like the "delicate fresh grain flavours" that seem to define the "it" factor. I didn't like it in the commercial beers or in my own beers - and I did seem to have success achieving the target flavours in my own beers. Fine for me, I'm a hop head after all, which brings me to what I really learned.. ..your opinions on this may differ but I thought it would be useful to add to the discussion of the impact of LODO on hoppy beers. When I went full hot-side and cold-side LODO for ~6 months (many brews) the heavily hopped IPAs I was brewing had hugely better hop character and this lasted almost indefinitely.. ..well, at least the 3 months max that the kegs lasted.. ..without any distinct changes to their flavours. When I dropped LODO on the hot-side, but kept the obsessive cold-side LODO, IPAs brewed with the same recipe were the same in hoppy-ness and longevity. Notably, even a very small "oops" moment during packaging, which resulted in tiny amounts of air being introduced into one-half of a split batch, had major impacts on how that half tasted and lasted. What I am getting at is that I have serious doubts about how much is to be gained by LODO methods on the hot-side for hop-driven brews. But I am fully convinced that cold-side LODO is key to maximizing the hop-flavors of hop-dominated beers.

Ok, got a little off the thread topic so I guess I should also comment on the on the actual thread topic. During my hot-side LODO explorations I used both pre-boiling and yeast scavenging. Both seemed to work well. Personally, I found the yeast approach a little easier by not having to implement a cooling step after a pre-boil.

Cheers

Yes that makes perfect sense to me. I am not a biochemist but I wish I was! Infact I have been spending my free time reading up an all kinds of basic chemistry and it kind of blew my mind to be honest. The idea that even the smallest structural rearrangement of atoms can have a profound effect on molecules and even form new substances I find absolutely fascinating. Today I was learning all about the different kinds of receptors that cells have in signalling, reception, transduction and response, wow what a trip, was psychedelic man!

Ok sorry I got carried away, meanwhile back to reality, yes I do believe that most brewers who have implemented low oxygen techniques have found that the freshness of their hop forward beers lasts for as long as the beer does itself and you can really taste the freshness in your glass. Its probably only a matter of time before it becomes standard practice, at least cold side as you emphasise in your text.

I do pre boil myself and add a very small amount of sodium metabisulphite, citric acid and BrewtanB (gallotannin) to the mash. I also acidify with Lactobacillus and have been very pleased with the results. Transfer closed to a keg that has been pre purged with natural CO2 and let the yeast consume any residual oxygen and you have a keg that has practically zero oxygen ingress. Spund it out to naturally carb and what's not to like? It doesn't take any specialised equipment, just a few minor changes and the benefits are readily discernible.

 

[MSK_Chess]

You are taking a great leap saying that HBT is notably anti-LODO. Especially when comparing to a site that is specifically for LODO....

This statement to me is almost as bad as Jay's.

Personally I wonder the degree of improvement. And the rate of return. For me the investment in equipment required makes it a NO GO. I have never detected a significant oxidation in any of my beers, so I don't feel the need to try it. But that is me. As I stated in another thread. There is a segment of LODO proponents that make it seem that if you don't do LODO you are looked down on.....

Everyone's MMV!

I haven’t purchased any specialist equipment and only slightly modified my kegs and glass FV. What specialist equipment are you referring to? The only thing I've really had to buy is a spunding valve.

 

[kh54s10]

I haven’t purchased any specialist equipment and only slightly modified by kegs and glass FV. What specialist equipment are you referring to?

I have pet fermentation vessels. I guess one of those orange caps would work. Would need racking cane, clamps, tubing, fittings for co2. I suppose I could underlet through the ball valve? I have co2 but my kegs are in storage . Modify kegs. kettles, etc. Thought you needed a seal-able kettle to add co2 instead of air when draining to the fermentation vessel. The small things would add up quickly.

 

[day_trippr]

It's unfathomable to claim no degradation of a highly hopped beer that had no cold side O2 management.
Those who do must be the cohort who judge exbeeriments...

Cheers!

 

[schematix]

A big part of tasting is educating your palette. If you don’t know what oxidation tastes like, how do you know if you’re tasting it?

Very common around here for people to say they can’t taste oxidation so they aren’t worried about it. More likely they are tasting it and just don’t know what the specific flavor elements that oxidation effects. Doesn’t make it not real though.

 

[lump42]

A big part of tasting is educating your palette. If you don’t know what oxidation tastes like, how do you know if you’re tasting it?

Very common around here for people to say they can’t taste oxidation so they aren’t worried about it. More likely they are tasting it and just don’t know what the specific flavor elements that oxidation effects. Doesn’t make it not real though.

It's important for both those that subscribe to LODO and those that don't to remember that just because it may make a perceivable difference doesn't mean that the LODO flavors are preferred. Some may prefer the slight oxidized malt characters.

It's unfortunate that some feel to go out of their way to attack a different method, especially in a sub forum dedicated to that topic. It's not like people are going into electric brewing forum and proclaiming the evils of electrical heating or that propane is better.

 

[brewbama]

A big part of tasting is educating your palette. If you don’t know what oxidation tastes like, how do you know if you’re tasting it?

Very common around here for people to say they can’t taste oxidation so they aren’t worried about it. More likely they are tasting it and just don’t know what the specific flavor elements that oxidation effects. Doesn’t make it not real though.

While oxidation is real (no doubt), if a brewer doesn’t taste it or doesn’t care about it, why would it matter to him/her? Those who can taste it, and don’t like it, should do something about it. c'est la vie.

 

[MSK_Chess]

I have pet fermentation vessels. I guess one of those orange caps would work. Would need racking cane, clamps, tubing, fittings for co2. I suppose I could underlet through the ball valve? I have co2 but my kegs are in storage . Modify kegs. kettles, etc. Thought you needed a seal-able kettle to add co2 instead of air when draining to the fermentation vessel. The small things would add up quickly.

PET is quite impermeable to oxygen I believe. Someone conducted a study and cited it but I cannot find it. Yes that's what I use an orange cap on a glass FV (I prefer glass to anything else) a tube, an acrylic 4mm straw that acts like the liquid out tube in a keg (my fermentation fridge isn't tall enough for kegs) and a stainless steel carbonation cap. Total cost without the glass FV about £12, like $18? If you purge the keg before from the fermentation, you don't need to push it through with Co2, it works in a perfect cycle, as the beer enters your keg with gravity it pushes the Co2 from the purged keg into the head space of the FV in a perfect cycle.

 

[kh54s10]

It's unfathomable to claim no degradation of a highly hopped beer that had no cold side O2 management.
Those who do must be the cohort who judge exbeeriments...

Cheers!

Directed to my reply? Didn't say none....

 

[day_trippr]

Not directed, inspired.
I see the "I don't do anything about cold-side O2 and my beer is never oxidized" sentiment used all the time.
It's a credibility destroyer...

Cheers!

 

[schematix]

While oxidation is real (no doubt), if a brewer doesn’t taste it or doesn’t care about it, why would it matter to him/her? Those who can taste it, and don’t like it, should do something about it. c'est la vie.

Well while you and I may agree oxidation is real, there are a ton of people out there who are outright deniers of it. Many of whom are Very loud, obnoxious, intrusive about it even.

I’ve always said low oxygen makes a very noticeable *difference* in the product. Maybe not everyone is as sensitive to it, but many of us are very in tune with it.

I don’t claim it’s universally *better* because there is such a thing as personal taste preference. Also some people may not perceive the additional time and equipment, however minimal it is, to be worth it to them.

 

[hopjuice_71]

Not directed, inspired.
I see the "I don't do anything about cold-side O2 and my beer is never oxidized" sentiment used all the time.
It's a credibility destroyer...

Cheers!

To be fair, I'm not sure I really get the sentiment expressed as this. I get a "I do it this way [insert method with no cold-side O2 management] and I still make good beer" sentiment. I know what you mean though.

Just to give a counterpoint to this (and to my own preferences!) one person's "degradation" may be another person's normal, yet pleasurable, evolution of a highly hopped beer. I prefer to have my last pour from a keg be the same as the first pour. However, prior to adopting LODO on the cold-side, I had batches of highly hopped beer that changed over time. In fact, the "oops" batch I mentioned in my earlier post that was accidentally oxidized on the cold-side experienced degradation over time relative to its sister half that was packaged correctly. The "oops" half, though, changed quite pleasantly, evolving from having a noticeable dankness through a different variety of fruity and/or citrus qualities that came and went. I was disappointed because this was the indicator of my personal failure in technique. But to everyone else who drank the beer on several different occasions, they very much enjoyed it and weren't bothered in the slightest by the "degradation". I admit, It didn't last long enough to become a completely lifeless beer, as it probably would have, but it was still enjoyable. So, I actually feel that people can make good, tasty beer, just different beer, without any LODO methods.

On this note, I have found this to be one of the most civil threads on what has historically been a very polarizing topic. I have, in the past, avoided all discussion of it. The people here seem to have adopted the attitude that LODO, however deep you opt to go, is just another approach to twiddle the flavour dials (or increase shelf-life..which in my house rarely matters ).

Cheers

 

[Bilsch]

It's important for both those that subscribe to LODO and those that don't to remember that just because it may make a perceivable difference doesn't mean that the LODO flavors are preferred. Some may prefer the slight oxidized malt characters.

That's gotta be the case or about 31 of the 33 craft brewers in my town would be out of business.

 

[kh54s10]

Not directed, inspired.
I see the "I don't do anything about cold-side O2 and my beer is never oxidized" sentiment used all the time.
It's a credibility destroyer...

Cheers!

Well while you and I may agree oxidation is real, there are a ton of people out there who are outright deniers of it. Many of whom are Very loud, obnoxious, intrusive about it even.

I’ve always said low oxygen makes a very noticeable *difference* in the product. Maybe not everyone is as sensitive to it, but many of us are very in tune with it.

I don’t claim it’s universally *better* because there is such a thing as personal taste preference. Also some people may not perceive the additional time and equipment, however minimal it is, to be worth it to them.

Here are 2 examples of the LODO crowd putting across the feeling of looking down on me because LODO is not that important to me at this this time. I might even say snobbery!

 

[Bilsch]

It's unfortunate but this seems to be where lodo threads always end up.

 

[day_trippr]

With respect, that's a chicken **** response to a real paradigm...

Cheers! (and I didn't write "poopy" )

 

[lump42]

It's unfortunate but this seems to be where lodo threads always end up.

What's that back there? An honest question about an unorthodox technique. I believe something about using baker's yeast to scavenge oxygen. Oh nevermind we're past useful discussions and teleported to drunken rambling and mindless mumblings.

 

[mongoose33]

A friend of mine has a palate to die for. Well, maybe not that, but it's able to perceive things my palate cannot.

I'm not as sensitive to some flavors as others are. My friend commented once on an Apricot beer, lamenting that they'd used Apricot extract instead of real Apricots. When I tasted the beer, I couldn't detect Apricot at all. Neither could another friend. But there it was, on the label.

There's a middle ground here where nobody should feel offended, and it's surprising to me that some people are so invested in their process--on both sides, btw--that they cannot seem to perceive that middle ground.

1. Oxidation is a thing. Science doesn't lie.

2. Not everybody can perceive the results of oxidation.

3. Some might perceive the results of oxidation and, due to personal preference, prefer that flavor.

4. LODO processes can enhance malt flavors. On the cold side, LODO can preserve hop flavor and aroma. Not all can perceive this, nor is it always something some might see as desirable.

5. If the results of oxidation--on either hot or cold side or both--are minor, how minor, and is it worth the hassle of LODO brewing? That depends on one's values and goals.

6. Some have tried the results of German brewers and indicated they didn't care for it. Fair enough.

7. There are those who have done LODO brewing, think enough of the results to continue to do it, and refine the process. This should bother no one.

 

[schematix]

^^^ how that's looking down on anyone doesn't make sense to me.

But some people take it that way....

 

[kh54s10]

mongoose33, Well said.

I jumped in on this when it was said that HBT is anti - LODO. That was too broad a statement for me. I am one who cannot perceive small amounts of oxidation, and have no desire to try LODO. I do not think that people who do it are nuts, nor do it think those who don't are either.

I guess there are too many that have to chime in on either side as one is nuts and the other is not......

 

[kh54s10]

schematix said: ↑
Well while you and I may agree oxidation is real, there are a ton of people out there who are outright deniers of it. Many of whom are Very loud, obnoxious, intrusive about it even.

I’ve always said low oxygen makes a very noticeable *difference* in the product. Maybe not everyone is as sensitive to it, but many of us are very in tune with it.

I don’t claim it’s universally *better* because there is such a thing as personal taste preference. Also some people may not perceive the additional time and equipment, however minimal it is, to be worth it to them.

Here are 2 examples of the LODO crowd putting across the feeling of looking down on me because LODO is not that important to me at this this time. I might even say snobbery!

I must apologize to schematix. I misread his response and thought he was saying that it is universally better and that those who don't LODO are making an inferior product even if it meets the individuals criteria.

The other quoted, on the other hand.....

 

[hopjuice_71]

A friend of mine has a palate to die for. Well, maybe not that, but it's able to perceive things my palate cannot.

I'm not as sensitive to some flavors as others are. My friend commented once on an Apricot beer, lamenting that they'd used Apricot extract instead of real Apricots. When I tasted the beer, I couldn't detect Apricot at all. Neither could another friend. But there it was, on the label.

There's a middle ground here where nobody should feel offended, and it's surprising to me that some people are so invested in their process--on both sides, btw--that they cannot seem to perceive that middle ground.

1. Oxidation is a thing. Science doesn't lie.

2. Not everybody can perceive the results of oxidation.

3. Some might perceive the results of oxidation and, due to personal preference, prefer that flavor.

4. LODO processes can enhance malt flavors. On the cold side, LODO can preserve hop flavor and aroma. Not all can perceive this, nor is it always something some might see as desirable.

5. If the results of oxidation--on either hot or cold side or both--are minor, how minor, and is it worth the hassle of LODO brewing? That depends on one's values and goals.

6. Some have tried the results of German brewers and indicated they didn't care for it. Fair enough.

7. There are those who have done LODO brewing, think enough of the results to continue to do it, and refine the process. This should bother no one.

A very nice post - well said indeed.

 

[lump42]

A friend of mine has a palate to die for. Well, maybe not that, but it's able to perceive things my palate cannot.

I'm not as sensitive to some flavors as others are. My friend commented once on an Apricot beer, lamenting that they'd used Apricot extract instead of real Apricots. When I tasted the beer, I couldn't detect Apricot at all. Neither could another friend. But there it was, on the label.

There's a middle ground here where nobody should feel offended, and it's surprising to me that some people are so invested in their process--on both sides, btw--that they cannot seem to perceive that middle ground.

1. Oxidation is a thing. Science doesn't lie.

2. Not everybody can perceive the results of oxidation.

3. Some might perceive the results of oxidation and, due to personal preference, prefer that flavor.

4. LODO processes can enhance malt flavors. On the cold side, LODO can preserve hop flavor and aroma. Not all can perceive this, nor is it always something some might see as desirable.

5. If the results of oxidation--on either hot or cold side or both--are minor, how minor, and is it worth the hassle of LODO brewing? That depends on one's values and goals.

6. Some have tried the results of German brewers and indicated they didn't care for it. Fair enough.

7. There are those who have done LODO brewing, think enough of the results to continue to do it, and refine the process. This should bother no one.

I agree with most of this except #4. By claiming LODO can enhance (to improve) flavors, it indicates that it is better than others. LODO might help prevent the malt character compounds from becoming oxidized, but doesn't improve flavors. That would disregard an individuals preferences. Just trying to keep things objective.

Brew on

 

[mongoose33]

I agree with most of this except #4. By claiming LODO can enhance (to improve) flavors, it indicates that it is better than others. LODO might help prevent the malt character compounds from becoming oxidized, but doesn't improve flavors.

Well, maybe, maybe not. I have seen it do that, and while it may be a perceptual thing, the effect is there. Whether you think it "enhances" the flavors, well, I do agree, that's up to you to decide. As for me, I've seen it do that. Or tasted it do that.