Are "flavouring" hop additions really a thing?

[IHATEBOILEDFISH]

Hello, forum!
One thing keeps bothering me and keeping away from sleep, it's 2:30AM in my country and my ADHD ass can't find any evidence based info on hop addition timings.

I can't understand why 20-15 min addition will impart flavour and bitterness and almost no aroma and KO or hopstand addition will impart mostly aroma and little bit of flavour and bitterness. Is that really so?
Whirlpool, KO, hopstand are still relatively hot checkpoints in the beer brewing process, hop isomerisation still will happen at 80-90°C. And, since there is no boiling at those checkpoints, you will preserve max amount of aromatic compounds of the post-boil hot side hop addition. But why are those post-boil hot side hop additions will impart mostly aroma?
Some NEIPAs got only whirlpool additions at 80°C for 30min + dry hopping and they are still FLAVOUR AND AROMA bombs, not just the aroma.

I am a hop head myself, soon i'll be brewing Piney-Lemon Black IPA and i want to maximise both flavour and aroma. Isn't 60 min bittering addition + 30min hopstand going to preserve most of the aromatic and flavour compounds compared to 60/20/0 schedule?

Also, still i didn't find any stone hard info on dry hop being flavouring or aromating technique. Or is that both? Or one of them being more prominent than the other?

Thanks in advance, fellow brewers! I hope i'll get a comprehensive answer, because that question bothered me for a week already

 

[worlddivides]

What makes you think "aroma" additions add little to no flavor? It's basically:

Bittering: Adds mostly bitterness, but not a lot of aroma or flavor
Flavor - Adds less bitterness than bittering, adds more flavor than bittering, and more aroma than bittering
Aroma - Adds less bitterness than bittering and flavor additions. Adds more flavor than the flavor addition does (might seem like a misnomer, but I think the idea is that "flavor additions" mainly add flavor, not that they only add flavor and not that they add "more" flavor than othe radditions). Adds much more aroma than the flavor addition
Whirlpooling/Hop stand - Adds more aroma and flavor than "aroma" or "flavor" additions do, but much much less bitterness. This, again, might seem like a misnomer, but the "flavor" and "aroma" terms existed before whirlpooling or hop stands even existed as something people did. It's one of the reason why many modern brewers don't even use the terms "aroma additions" or "flavor additions" and just say how many minutes they're boiled.
Dry hop - Adds zero (or close to zero) bitterness. Adds more aroma and flavor than flavor, aroma, or whirlpool/hop stand flavors.

That's the basic idea.

 

[AlexKay]

It's one of the reason why many modern brewers don't even use the terms "aroma additions" or "flavor additions" and just say how many minutes they're boiled.

This.

All of the things people talk about when they discuss hop flavor — grapefruit, pine, floral, passion fruit — all of those things are picked up by chemical receptors in the nose. They are aromas.

To a good approximation, bitterness increases with time spent at temperature: higher temperatures convert the bitter compounds more quickly into their soluble forms.

Flavor (aroma) is more complicated. There are many different chemicals involved, each making a separate contribution to the overall flavor. Each one will have its own solubility, with that solubility’s dependence on temperature. Each one will also be volatilized at its own rate, and potentially subject to chemical breakdown, also with a temperature-dependent rate.

Given all that, you would expect that the flavor will be different based on whether a hop was boiled and for how long, versus a hop stand or a dry hop. There are some general guidelines — intensity of hop flavor tends to decrease fairly quickly with boil time — but it’s a two-hundred-variable problem, not a one-variable problem.

As a practical matter, I tend to try to add hop flavor (again, =aroma) in a few different ways, just to cover the bases: 10, hop stand, and dry, for instance.

I avoid flame-out additions, which I think require more consistency in cool-down process than I (or many home brewers) usually have, in order to get reproducible results.

One of my resolutions for ‘25 is to do more side-by-side trials. Maybe batches of hop water, with different late-hop timing, adjusted (as best as possible) to constant bitterness.

As an anecdote, the first time I brewed with Strata, I got great cannabis notes out of it, and the next 5 batches over the following years were just generically fruity. I just recently returned to my original recipe, which used a late-boil addition and a hop stand, but not a dry hop … and the weed is back.

 

[IHATEBOILEDFISH]

Thanks for the answers!
Okay, i got it i guess, different boil times unleash different flavors and aroma. But how to tell whether i should add hops at 20, 15, 10 or 0 min? Or boil time just tells me how much oils will be left in the wort? Than the first question rises again, why i shouldn't just dump all of my hops at hopstand to retain max aromatic compounds?
Also, why is flavor=aroma? I always thought that flavor is a tongue perception and aroma is something you pick smelling the beer.

I am confused

 

[AlexKay]

Thanks for the answers!
Okay, i got it i guess, different boil times unleash different flavors and aroma. But how to tell whether i should add hops at 20, 15, 10 or 0 min? Or boil time just tells me how much oils will be left in the wort? Than the first question rises again, why i shouldn't just dump all of my hops at hopstand to retain max aromatic compounds?
Also, why is flavor=aroma? I always thought that flavor is a tongue perception and aroma is something you pick smelling the beer.

I am confused

Your tongue tells you whether something is sweet, salty, sour, bitter, or umami/savory. Everything else we think of as “flavor” happens in the nose — specifically, volatiles from the food go from the back of your mouth back up past your nasal passages.

So your tongue tells you that apple pie is sweet (and maybe tart or salty), but the apple taste, plus the cinnamon, toasty crust, and everything else, happens in your nose.

This absolutely never made sense to me, because is sure seems like the apple-cinnamon flavor is right there, in the mouth. Really, though, the flavor is in your brain, which gets the taste (sweet) and aroma (apple) from the nose and mouth, and then tells you it’s happening in your mouth.

(There is also mouthfeel, where skin in your mouth — not necessarily limited to the tongue — gives you sensory information about carbonation or astringency or something. And there are a few sensations — “metallic” comes to mind — where scientists are still trying to figure out where the sensory information is actually coming from.)

 

[worlddivides]

Also, why is flavor=aroma? I always thought that flavor is a tongue perception and aroma is something you pick smelling the beer.

I am confused

Smell is a HUGE part of taste. Have you ever noticed that when you have a cold or influenza and your nose is stuffed up, all of the flavors of the things you eat and drink feel muted? A flavor that you normally love tastes like cardboard. You still get the texture and certain characteristics about it, but the actual flavor is a mere shadow of what it normally is? That's a good way to really feel just how important smell is for flavor.

 

[AlexKay]

As for timing hop additions, yes, you can probably use a 60-minute addition of whatever to get the bitterness you want with virtually none of the flavor, and then put all your aroma hops in with the hopstand. That will make good beer.

An expert could probably (or at least maybe) taste that beer, decide “good, but it needs more/less/different in X or Y way” and tell you to shift the hopstand hops into a different combination of late boil, hopstand, and dry hop, to achieve the change they want.

When I’m making my own recipe for a hop-forward beer, I usually put a bit under half the aroma hops in somewhere between 5 and 20, in either one or two additions, and the rest in at the hopstand. If it’s going to be a very hop-forward beer, I’ll add more again at dry hop. But I absolutely concede that this approach is pretty arbitrary!

 

[Miraculix]

Buy yourself a copy of Scott Janish's "the new IPA" and be at ease about everything hop related!

 

[fluketamer]

this is a timely post for me. i just made my first ipa and had plenty of aroma but not enough flavor. i was thikning of adding more at 10 and less in the whirpool but another poster reccomended actually to move more to the whirpool. that seemed counter intuititve to me. since liek others have mentioned its bitter/flavor/aroma with hop additions. then a third poster said to move it basically all to the pool. i have read a lot and it seems likely that both, multiple flavor additions between 30 to 10 PLUS pool or stand will give i guess more complete layers of distinguishable flavors. in addition to aroma. but i doubt i could distinguish them. i have descided to go with first wort hopping for the bittering charge (since during my reading on hop additions it seems that a lot are saying fwh will give a more mellow flavoring bitterness then 60 min addition. ) . then moving all my hops flavor additions to the whirlpool. (easier than stepped additions and i dont think i will be able to tell the difference) . then continue with the dry hopping as normal.

taste is based more in the nose than the tongue for many reasons.

 

[AlexKay]

this is a timely post for me. i just made my first ipa and had plenty of aroma but not enough flavor. i was thikning of adding more at 10 and less in the whirpool but another poster reccomended actually to move more to the whirpool. that seemed counter intuititve to me. since liek others have mentioned its bitter/flavor/aroma with hop additions. then a third poster said to move it basically all to the pool. i have read a lot and it seems likely that both, multiple flavor additions between 30 to 10 PLUS pool or stand will give i guess more complete layers of distinguishable flavors. in addition to aroma. but i doubt i could distinguish them. i have descided to go with first wort hopping for the bittering charge (since during my reading on hop additions it seems that a lot are saying fwh will give a more mellow flavoring bitterness then 60 min addition. ) . then moving all my hops flavor additions to the whirlpool. (easier than stepped additions and i dont think i will be able to tell the difference) . then continue with the dry hopping as normal.

taste is based more in the nose than the tongue for many reasons.

If you post your hop schedule, I'm sure people will be happy to comment, though as you say, the advice may go in different or opposite directions.

My first reaction to "aroma but not enough flavor" is to add more hops. I mean, it's not like at any point you're going to say "whoa! that's too much aroma," so why not increase both? Anyhow, I'm assuming you mean that it smells really good but is disappointing when you drink it, and my suspicion is that your nose is sensitive to volatile compounds, and is saying "that's pretty good" when in fact the levels are overall too low to get the taste you want. I suppose there's a theoretical possibility that the beer is specifically low in the compounds that volatilize when they warm in your mouth, but it doesn't seem like a great explanation to me.

My second reaction is that you're adding plenty of hops, but have oxygen exposure that's wrecking them before your first taste. You could post your oxygen-exclusion process for comment as well.

There are also sometimes hard-to-predict hop/yeast interactions, where a particular combination just loses its flavor during fermentation.

As a practical matter, if you're looking to make changes, move your additions later. Taking hops from the whirlpool and putting them in at 10 minutes instead is probably not the right direction.

And as an aside, my (admittedly limited) understanding is that the perception of "harsh" versus "mellow" bitterness, and its link to ingredients (e.g., low-cohumulone hops) or process, does not have a lot of evidence backing it up.

 

[kevin58]

It's about the volatility of the hop oils. Aroma and flavor hops boil off first so the early (usually 60 minute) additions impart only bitterness. The shorter 30, 15 or 5 minute additions were/are intended to retain the aroma and flavor compounds.

 

[fluketamer]

what i meant was that the aroma is super strong and i expect that to last in the mouth but it seems to be a little absent. after time however it seems to have balanced out more and the flavor is coming through a little better now.


hops are tough. i brewed lagers and stouts for years and just added a bittering charge and maybe a flavor addition at like 15 mins and they always came out great. if i wanted to get fancy i might dry hop the lager. but these ipas/ apas are so much more involved.

 

[David Coy]

Buy yourself a copy of Scott Janish's "the new IPA" and be at ease about everything hop related!

This is great advice if you don't already have it.

Most inspirational and informative brewing book I've read in the last 20 plus years.

Check out his blog too.

https://scottjanish.com/

 

[David Coy]

I'll offer another explanation.

The boil drives off flavor and aroma. What you are sharing in the air with your friends and neighbors is no longer left in the beer.

The longer hops are in the boil, the longer these flavors and aromas are driven off.

I gave up on "flavor" additions years ago.

I do have some recipes where I have flavor additions, and I'd still do them because that was how the recipe was written.

I'm sure I could alter the amounts and boil time to push the bitterness, flavor and aroma from any middle additions to first and/or last hops additions but just stick with tried and true recipes.

My current practice for kettle hops in recipe development is mostly a boil (bittering) charge followed by a final flavor and aroma charge anywhere from last 5 minutes of the boil to knockout.

 

[fluketamer]

i effing love brewing beer.

thanks for the janish link

 

[fluketamer]

the reddit post is really very informative.

 

[IHATEBOILEDFISH]

So much answers... Sorry for leaving the thread without attention. Currently i decided to listen to @Miraculix advice and read "The New IPA" book. Later i'll give a little summary to finally answer my question.

 

[bwible]

And then what about this idea of FWH and adding hops while running off the mash before the boil even starts?

 

[fluketamer]

i stuck with 60 min bittering charge i chickened out with the fwh.

then i put the rest in the whirpool. subjectively this wort didint taste as hoppy as when i had flavor addition at 10 mins. but i will see in a few weeks.

 

[IHATEBOILEDFISH]

Okay, i did some research.
Boiling time defines only how much of volatile compounds will be left in the final wort. Actually, speaking of aroma and flavor, any addition earlier than knockout or whirlpool is pointless, because terpenes are non-polar, they boil off fairly quickly, oxygenated fraction of hop oil is polar (so more soluble) but still boil off quick. In "The New IPA" by Scott Janish he also mentioned that whirlpool temp and strain of hops are important too. Better to add some hops at 95°C (more citrus/estery) whirlpool/hopstand and some at 85°C (more herbal/flower like). Strains are important in terms of survivable compounds, Yakima Chief did a bit of research, so there's a chart for different strains. General rule: more survivable compounds - better for WP, HP, AFDP (active fermentation dry hop) and if less, then PFDH (post fermentation dry hop).
But, in the same book "The New IPA" Scott Janish mentioned an article about extraction rates of hop volatile compounds. The findings concluded that more essential oil doesn't mean better aroma yield. For example CTZ and Nugget, not so fruity hops, actually contribute a lot of linalool into the wort during dry hop and WP/HP, but data on extraction rates of different hops is limited [1].

As a conclusion i would say, that in my schedule for a great IPA i would do WP/HP hop rate at 5-6g/L of wort in two batches: 95°C for 15 min and 85°C for 15 min. Also 5-8g/L dry hop in two batches: at fermentation and post fermentation.
As for the strains chosen i'd do some highly survivable hops at WP/HP and AFDH (Like centennial, chinook, idaho 7) and some not so survivable at PFDH (Like cascade, amarillo, cashmere).

Article:
1. Dresel, M., Praet, T., Van Opstaele, F., Van Holle, A., Naudts, D., De Keukeleire, D., . . . Aerts, G. (2015). Comparison of the Analytical Profiles of Volatiles in Single-Hopped Worts and Beers as a Function of the Hop Variety. BrewingScience, 68, 8-28.

 

[Virwill7]

Brewing a 5-gallon black IPA today and seeking advice, particularly on timing of hops additions. Trying to up my game in this department and experiment a bit. I aim for medium bitterness, nice roastiness. I grow some of the hops I use (untested, actual AA unknown); pellets for the rest. I don’t bag the leaf hops but have a new fermenter with a wider mouth and might consider. Here’s my hops schedule:

60 minutes: 1.25 oz Columbus (leaf)
Whirlpool (160-170 degrees): 1 oz Centennial (pellet), 1.25 oz Chinook (leaf)
Post-fermentation (7 days) dry hop (67 degrees): 5 days with 1 oz Centennial (pellet), 1 oz Chinook (pellet).
Brewer’s Friend says this will end up at about 56 IBU.

Questions:
1) What do I gain/lose in terms of oil extraction and character by, say, increasing the Columbus to 2 oz but not adding it until the 20- minute mark? (IBUs drop to 54.19.)
2) What do I gain/lose by moving some of these hops between whirlpool and the dry hop stage? I’m definitely no cicerone. Wondering whether any changes would be perceptible.
3) I think I’m ok w/a 5-day dry hop with pellets, if I stick with it. But should I remove the whirlpool leaf hops - and for that matter, those from the boil - after cooling to ferment temperature? Thinking possible vegetal issues.
4) Any thoughts on this particular blend of hops for this beer?

Appreciate any and all feedback.

 

[AlexKay]

I have never made (or had) an IPA where I’ve thought “this would be good, except there’s too much hop aroma.” With this in mind, I always move my 60-minute addition to 20 or 15. You get plenty of bitterness, and the flavor/aroma is a (very nice) bonus. I wouldn’t move it to 5, though, just because I think the total bitterness would be harder to control.

I’m sure there’s an official answer on moving between whirlpool and dry hop, but for my money, both are pretty good. I generally try to diversify my portfolio and split hops between the two. (If I’m making a not-so-hoppy beer, I just whirlpool, to spare myself the hassle of dry hopping.)

I would try to avoid transferring spent leaf hops to the fermenter. I also wouldn’t lose any sleep about the bits that will still inevitably get in.

Finally, that’s a classic blend of IPA hops, and it’ll work great. For your next one, try some fruity ones — I like Sabro, Talus, and Lotus in black IPA — but that’ll be a totally different beer.

And you didn’t ask, but in my opinion the thing that makes or breaks a black IPA is the grain bill, and specifically the choice of roasted malt. I always use Carafa Special. I’ve tried Midnight Wheat (not at all bad, but lacking an edge) and chocolate rye (weird), and I’d be open to other huskless malts, but I wouldn’t use roasted barley unless you’re going to steep it cold and remove it before the mash. Just my two cents.

 

[corncob]

I think there's an element of subtraction in flavor presentation as well. I'm not an IPA guy, but with the spicy flavors, particularly, it seems like early additions work better. I think some of this might be due to stripping the resinous flavors out with a longer boil.

Note that many of these discussions revolve around new American styles using new American hops in which the desired flavor outcome is something European brewers in the past would have considered a terribly flawed flavor presentation.

 

[Virwill7]

I have never made (or had) an IPA where I’ve thought “this would be good, except there’s too much hop aroma.” With this in mind, I always move my 60-minute addition to 20 or 15. You get plenty of bitterness, and the flavor/aroma is a (very nice) bonus. I wouldn’t move it to 5, though, just because I think the total bitterness would be harder to control.

I’m sure there’s an official answer on moving between whirlpool and dry hop, but for my money, both are pretty good. I generally try to diversify my portfolio and split hops between the two. (If I’m making a not-so-hoppy beer, I just whirlpool, to spare myself the hassle of dry hopping.)

I would try to avoid transferring spent leaf hops to the fermenter. I also wouldn’t lose any sleep about the bits that will still inevitably get in.

Finally, that’s a classic blend of IPA hops, and it’ll work great. For your next one, try some fruity ones — I like Sabro, Talus, and Lotus in black IPA — but that’ll be a totally different beer.

And you didn’t ask, but in my opinion the thing that makes or breaks a black IPA is the grain bill, and specifically the choice of roasted malt. I always use Carafa Special. I’ve tried Midnight Wheat (not at all bad, but lacking an edge) and chocolate rye (weird), and I’d be open to other huskless malts, but I wouldn’t use roasted barley unless you’re going to steep it cold and remove it before the mash. Just my two cents.

 

[Virwill7]

I have never made (or had) an IPA where I’ve thought “this would be good, except there’s too much hop aroma.” With this in mind, I always move my 60-minute addition to 20 or 15. You get plenty of bitterness, and the flavor/aroma is a (very nice) bonus. I wouldn’t move it to 5, though, just because I think the total bitterness would be harder to control.

I’m sure there’s an official answer on moving between whirlpool and dry hop, but for my money, both are pretty good. I generally try to diversify my portfolio and split hops between the two. (If I’m making a not-so-hoppy beer, I just whirlpool, to spare myself the hassle of dry hopping.)

I would try to avoid transferring spent leaf hops to the fermenter. I also wouldn’t lose any sleep about the bits that will still inevitably get in.

Finally, that’s a classic blend of IPA hops, and it’ll work great. For your next one, try some fruity ones — I like Sabro, Talus, and Lotus in black IPA — but that’ll be a totally different beer.

And you didn’t ask, but in my opinion the thing that makes or breaks a black IPA is the grain bill, and specifically the choice of roasted malt. I always use Carafa Special. I’ve tried Midnight Wheat (not at all bad, but lacking an edge) and chocolate rye (weird), and I’d be open to other huskless malts, but I wouldn’t use roasted barley unless you’re going to steep it cold and remove it before the mash. Just my two cents.

Great info/advice, @AlexKay. I’ll snag those pre-ferm hops when I aerate. And I’ll think twice about the barley.