Apple Wine & Apple Jack

[HP_Lovecraft]

There is no precedent for homebrewers......

Actually, the ATF has said many times that freeze distillation is fine AS LONG AS THE final ABV does not exceed the maximum level you might expect to get from yeast.

The ATF says that maximum level is 24% abv.

What this means, specifically, is they do not care if you freeze-distilled hard cider into 24% abv Applejack, or just used wine yeast to also achieve the same ABV.

The home-brew laws were written as such that you can use any method to reach that 24%. Above that and you are not making beer/wine (according to the government).

 

[Heineken_Draught]

no precedent means nobody has ever been arrested for having ice beer or applejack no matter the ABV, plus

Freeze concentration at home is not prohibited for beer or winemaking. With beer there is no legal limit to the ABV, as there is not point at which a beer is not considered to "beer."

what if i mix some beer & strong spirit(store bought) to get a 40%ABV ice beer, because its over 24% is the ATF gonna say its not beer?
or what if I have a super mutant yeast that can ferment to 25%, if they say thats not beer then the ATF and the government can kiss my ass.
The point is that there is a law prohibiting distilling spirits without a license, so if you are not using a still to separate the alcohol vapors your applejack or icebeer is legal.

 

[Brew_Master]

the point isn't if its legal or not because some stupid ATF guy can bust you if he's crazy enough to do it,the point is can it be proven or not and it can't because you can just say

i mix some beer & strong spirit(store bought) to get a 40%ABV ice beer.

there are plenty of stupid laws out there that can't be enforced just check this out:http://www.idiotlaws.com/dont-drink-beer-too-fast-while-standing/

 

[CidahMastah]

Cidah mastah... love ur input but gotta ask?? Ever crank through a rocks glass of johnny walker blue? Or glenn fiord highland scotch? Some people like the grimace the character and warmth that goes with a sip of something that equals eight times the strength of our raw product.

Now about the fusel alcohols I am finding all these claims on here extremely circumstantial. I would love to see something more detailed and perhaps peer reviewed about the life cycle and effects of the derivative. Some places say it just causes hangovers and some say it causes blindness. Confused. ABSOLUTELY LOVE the idea that freeze concentrating also concentrates the flavors present as opposed the the illegal distillation.

I drink my scotch and whiskey neat. Like I said, if it were legal I would have a still. My favorite whiskey is Eagle rare 10 year old 46.5% - love the stuff.

This is in response to the general not you becon,

If you want to do this stuff go ahead and do it, but parading around on a forum is a stupid way to advertise your motives, IMO.

 

[CidahMastah]

Check out Annie Proulx and Ben Watson. They get rather detailed about this process, and its' dangers. This is considered "fractal distillation" and IS illegal in the U.S. Remember this, ever hear the term "Scrumpy"? Well, this term is an old appellation for cider before people knew about nutrients needed for proper fermentation, so when their fermentation stuck they would add a piece of beef or mutton to their cider barrel. This did act as a nitrogen source to complete fermentation, but I understand the results were vile.

Precisely - for all the people who don't think there are risks - you are only kidding yourself.


g 'head and brew it drink some if you want - just don't preach its safety when you don't know it for fact!

 

[CidahMastah]

To settle this legal thing, i contacted the ATF here in Denver, and they said something like this "People call us all the time and ask us this. It has never been decided in a court of law whether this process is, in fact, distilling. There is no precedent for homebrewers in Denver as to whether a case has been tried. However, it is very unlikely that Denver has the resources to peruse criminal charges on a case that would probably be ruled legitimate homebrewing by the judge. I would suggest to you that it is, in fact, probably legal, because there has been no precedent set against it. We've been making a distinction to our agents and telling them freeze concentration is legal."
so don't worry,be happy,have a home icebeer

Too bad Denver is a STATE government. FEDERAL government presides, thus..... felony


If you guys would read how the process works.... Freeze distillation used for brewing ice beer happens.... (wait for it).... BEFORE the fermentation. This prevents any issues with concentrated methanol and other nasties. It just makes a stronger beer like if you were to add more dme to an extract home brew. You remove the water before fermentation thus concentrating the sugar = more alcohol.

Point is, you run into potential troubles with you remove water after the fact.

Like I said, all you guys are so sure that you are right, go ahead and do it. Just don't act like there aren't risks. You don't understand the process, and you pretend you do.

See if I was making it I wouldn't be worried. I would do the research and take the care to perfect a product that is not only safe, but like a Johnny wlker blue, something special and delicious. Some guys seem to be coming onto the forum with a frat guy mentality - "dude, I tried it once it is safe, trust me bro - let's get really drunk". That just sounds like darwinism in process to me - ha

 

[Heineken_Draught]

If you guys would read how the process works.... Freeze distillation used for brewing ice beer happens.... (wait for it).... BEFORE the fermentation. This prevents any issues with concentrated methanol and other nasties. It just makes a stronger beer like if you were to add more dme to an extract home brew. You remove the water before fermentation thus concentrating the sugar = more alcohol.

Like I said, all you guys are so sure that you are right, go ahead and do it. Just don't act like there aren't risks. You don't understand the process, and you pretend you do.

Like you're some sort of biochemist and know every thing there is to know about fermentation when you make beer or wine,I never pretended to be an expert but you don't have to fully understand the process to do it.
And actually according to wikipedia(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_beer)
"The process of "icing" beer involves lowering the temperature of a batch of beer until ice crystals form. Since alcohol has a lower freezing point than water and doesn't form crystals, when the ice is filtered off, the alcohol concentration increases. The process is known as "fractional freezing"."
just look at eisbock(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eisbock#Eisbock) it "ranges from 9% to 43% by volume" so I don't think it's frozen before fermentation.

See if I was making it I wouldn't be worried. I would do the research and take the care to perfect a product that is not only safe, but like a Johnny wlker blue, something special and delicious. Some guys seem to be coming onto the forum with a frat guy mentality - "dude, I tried it once it is safe, trust me bro - let's get really drunk". That just sounds like darwinism in process to me - ha

oh so now you're saying that you wouldn't be worried if you made it but the rest of us are idiots and cant, like I said I never claimed to be an expert and I even recommended books like The Alaskan Bootleggers Bible and The Compleat Distiller, I started to read the e-books Brew_Master provided and they are great

thanks but I already found a bunch of e-books here:
http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/6133827/Homebrew_Beer_Wine__amp__Spirit_Distillation_Books
I recommend the Sony PRS-505 and you will never read a regular book again. I love being able to carry around a complete library in my pocket. The e-ink technology is amazing, such high resolution that you can't hardly tell that the font is digital.
sorry for the

 

[Heineken_Draught]

oh an about "Too bad Denver is a STATE government. FEDERAL government presides, thus..... felony" until I hear about the ATF busting someone for brewing applejack or ice beer I'll consider it legal like so many do,no still no conviction, after all this isn't 100 proof moonshine it's just good all american applejack.

 

[Brew_Master]

hey guys calm down, its no use arguing over something so trivial,some people say it's ok some say it's not, in the end one group can't force the way they think on the other.
plus the local authorities told me they wont bother to peruse criminal charges on a case like that and thats all I need to know so so don't worry,be happy,have a homebrew

 

[CidahMastah]

You kill me heini haha - just go do it if you are so sure. Why does my opinion matter?

I never said I understood it on the level of a biochemist, but you have even less an idea than me. I can tell because you think you are bullet proof. You "think" it works like this or that. Classic example of someone starting a hobby and thinking they know it all with zero experience doing it.

Here you are all getting hot tempered... chill out.

I never called any of you idiots - I simply asked you to not act as an authority on a matter you clearly don't understand, thus giving others bad ideas who may not be as careful or thoughtful as they should.

be as irresponsible as you like, just don't drag others into it. Go forth an conquer sir.

 

[CidahMastah]

Thanks for being a calming source and putting it into perspective Brew Master. I agree the risk is small for legal issues, unless you start selling the stuff and mass producing. The risk of concentrated methonal is also low, but still there. What a man does in his own back yard is his business.... unless he gets caught haha!

I concur, RDWBHHAHB

 

[Heineken_Draught]

Sorry if I came on too strong I was just sure freeze concentration is done after and not before fermentation,oh and you're right "What a man does in his own back yard is his business".
And only by experimenting can we learn more things about what we don't understand, and if someone gets sick or arrested because he read something somewhere it's his own fault cuz nobody held a gun up to his head to do it. If you dare someone to speed at over 100 mph over the highway should you pay his speeding ticket?

 

[CidahMastah]

so I found what I had read from annie proulx book regarding the statutes for federal law and freeze distillation. This would of course supercede State law. Again - I concur that the chance of Johnny law chasing down a home brewer who isnt mass producing or selling, is minimal:

"home cidermakers who think they've found a way through the federal barriers to farm-made applejack by making "frozen heart" applejack - separating ehtyl alcohol out from the chief by frational crystalization - will be disapointed to know that

the product derived by the drawing off of ethyl alcohol from a barrel of frozen hard cider would be considered distilled spirits as defined in 26 U.S.C 5002(a)(80)(A). It is unlawful to produce any distilled spirits at a place other than a qualified distilled spirits plant. To do so would be subject to the penalties of 26 U/S.C 560L.

The penalties are a fine of not more than $10,000 or imprisonment for not more than five years, or both for each offense."

The above is a direct quote from page 205 of Annie Proulx's Cider making book.

What would be really cool is if you could get a bunch of home brewers in one area to fund a single "qualified distilled spirits plant". You could potentially side step the law, and minimal taxation since you wouldn't be selling the liquor. Although I think I read about doing that and believe you have to produce a minimum quantity yearly, and or sell a certain amount (so uncle sam gets his taxation). What would be really nice is if they let home brewers do like 5 gallons of the stuff per year or something.... Here is to hoping!

Between - I have had applejack made from an old local ciderman man, who taught me many of his tricks with fresh cider and fermented. The stuff is awesome. I hope the laws for stills change soon, I would love to work a still at some point in my life. Can't think of something much more fun to do on the weekend

 

[Optimus_Pwn]

so I found what I had read from annie proulx book regarding the statutes for federal law and freeze distillation. This would of course supercede State law. Again - I concur that the chance of Johnny law chasing down a home brewer who isnt mass producing or selling, is minimal:

"home cidermakers who think they've found a way through the federal barriers to farm-made applejack by making "frozen heart" applejack - separating ehtyl alcohol out from the chief by frational crystalization - will be disapointed to know that

the product derived by the drawing off of ethyl alcohol from a barrel of frozen hard cider would be considered distilled spirits as defined in 26 U.S.C 5002(a)(80)(A). It is unlawful to produce any distilled spirits at a place other than a qualified distilled spirits plant. To do so would be subject to the penalties of 26 U/S.C 560L.

The penalties are a fine of not more than $10,000 or imprisonment for not more than five years, or both for each offense."

The above is a direct quote from page 205 of Annie Proulx's Cider making book.

What would be really cool is if you could get a bunch of home brewers in one area to fund a single "qualified distilled spirits plant". You could potentially side step the law, and minimal taxation since you wouldn't be selling the liquor. Although I think I read about doing that and believe you have to produce a minimum quantity yearly, and or sell a certain amount (so uncle sam gets his taxation). What would be really nice is if they let home brewers do like 5 gallons of the stuff per year or something.... Here is to hoping!

Between - I have had applejack made from an old local ciderman man, who taught me many of his tricks with fresh cider and fermented. The stuff is awesome. I hope the laws for stills change soon, I would love to work a still at some point in my life. Can't think of something much more fun to do on the weekend

I am a chemist major, and still don't understand why you guys seem to be confusing fusel concentration with something horrible and dangerous. I'm going to spell this out to make it easy for you guys to understand. Lets say you have two gallons of 10% cider. Of that 10%, 0.5% are fusels(I don't actually know the typical fusel concentration, but it won't matter for this problem). You freeze distill it, to the point that you remove half the the water. So now, you have one gallon of 20% cider, with 1% fusel concentration. You do this again, now you have half a gallon of 40% cider. Following? Let's say if it were just plain cider, you would drink 5 - 8oz glasses. This is equivalent to 4oz of pure alcohol(of various types, including fusels, but primarily ethyl alcohol). This means that 0.2oz of that alcohol are fusels. Now let's fast forward to the apple jack. Let's say you drink an equivalent amount of alcohol, this being 4oz of alcohol. 1/0.4(inverse ratio of 40%) = 2.5. 2.5 * 4oz = 10oz. So, you drink 10oz of applejack, get just as drunk as you would off the cider, and drink the exact same amount(0.2oz) of fusels.

Unless freeze distilling somehow converts sugars or ethyl alcohol into fusels, it doesn't matter how you drink it. Also, Cidermastah, your comparison to aspirin makes no sense, because you are forgetting that you would have to stop drinking applejack due to ethyl alcohol overdose(alcohol poisoning) long before you would even start to be remotely affected by the fusels.

As far as the legal thing goes, I don't understand why so many of you have such a hardon for the government. CiderMastah, if you would love to have a still sometime in your life, what are you waiting for? You aren't going to get caught, even if you parade it all over this forum. Do you honestly have a conscience that would prevent you to live your dream because you would be crossing uncle sam? It's ridiculous, sometime's you have to look at a law, and try to understand why it was put there in the first place. As you said, it is to prevent people from hurting themselves, and like you also said, you think that you could implement a distillation of applejack without any problems. I guess I just don't see what's preventing you, hell, I've been homebrewing since I was 18

 

[CidahMastah]

First and foremost, the question was, is it legal. The real answer was.... no it is not.
My only other goal in the matter was to make sure people knew there was a risk is freeze distillation, which there is of concentrated chemicals, most notably, methanol. This is the stuff that can make you go blind.


Listen,

1. You are a chemist major.... check back when you have the degree. As of now it isn't looking good for you in my mind. Yes the aspirin example was extreme, but concentrating volitals such as methonal, has real danger - which was really all I was trying to illustrate.
2. You are 19 and think you have the answers, but in fact your rebuttal had no answers, just assumptions.
3. There is a risk in concetrating distillate.... period
4. It is a felony violation to distill, including freeze distilation.... period. This supercedes state goverment regulation.
5. Once you get a little older you may realize that you have obligations to people other than yourself, and that, for the risk, putting up a still just isn't the right move.

Why don't you try and write back when you are of age.

 

[CidahMastah]

As for your break down of percentages. Let's say you ferment a cider out at 10%, then go ahead and distill it. You would need ~ 10 gallons to get one gallon of pure spirit. That means your volatiles would be concentrated from by 90% of what they were without proper fractional heat distillation.

Would they kill you tomorrow... not likely, but would they give you jake leg if you drink the stuff heavily for a period of time.... perhaps.

giddi-up there cowboy!


One other quick note about methonal alcohol..

"The concern is due to the presence of methanol (wood alcohol), an optic nerve poison, which can be present in small amounts when fermenting grains or fruits high in pectin."

This went on to say that you can remove methanol from your distilate by removing the heads (foreshots). You can't separate methonal by freeze distillation.

Anybody know anything that is high in fruit pectins? Ok I will solve the mystery, apples have the highest amount of fruit pectin of just about any fruit. You will notice when you buy pectin to make jams, etc., it is often apple pectin that is being used.

Fatal dosage:
Methanol : usual fatal dose 100-250 mL

http://homedistiller.org/methanol.htm

Most of the symptoms from too much methonal would come from years of chronicly drinking it, that of an alcoholic's level of consumption.

Again - will it blind you tomorrow... probably not. Will you have heaps of methonal for a fatal dose? Unlikely. But is there a risk that should be noted? IMO Absolutely

 

[jakel]

wow just read all the thread. CidahMastah calm down man and have a homebrew. I talked to my LHBS peeps who have a combined experience of 30 years of brewing and they said that freeze distillation will not make you sick. They furthermore said that most of the tales of alcohol making you blind orginated from the prohibition era when bootleggers would use old rediators as stills and that lead residue infused the alcohol and poisoned people. I guess it is technically illegal to freeze distill, but personally I see it as a formality law such as jaywalking.

 

[CidahMastah]

Dude I am perfectly calm - just putting facts up. I agree that the ATF isn't probably out to get you. Where I disagree is the "trust me my buddies say its safe" mentality. I prefer to get facts and make my own judgement.

What I don't understand is how I come across as the bad guy for posting facts on the issue. The people in oposition have not done that, and I respect their choice the do whatever they want. But I feel the facts are important, let each reader decide from facts, not assumptions or case study experience.

I will end it with this, because it is getting tiresome on this thread. My efforts are to provide facts, ultimately you decide your path. I won't however, for the sake of being popular operate on heresay. If I tell you something, it is because I have a darn good reason to believeit - either personal experience, research/fact finding or similar.

 

[Optimus_Pwn]

First and foremost, the question was, is it legal. The real answer was.... no it is not.
My only other goal in the matter was to make sure people knew there was a risk is freeze distillation, which there is of concentrated chemicals, most notably, methanol. This is the stuff that can make you go blind.


Listen,

1. You are a chemist major.... check back when you have the degree. As of now it isn't looking good for you in my mind. Yes the aspirin example was extreme, but concentrating volitals such as methonal, has real danger - which was really all I was trying to illustrate.
2. You are 19 and think you have the answers, but in fact your rebuttal had no answers, just assumptions.
3. There is a risk in concetrating distillate.... period
4. It is a felony violation to distill, including freeze distilation.... period. This supercedes state goverment regulation.
5. Once you get a little older you may realize that you have obligations to people other than yourself, and that, for the risk, putting up a still just isn't the right move.

Why don't you try and write back when you are of age.

I'm not 19, I'm 21, and I do have the degree, in fact, I also have a computer science degree, and next quarter I will have my biology minor. I really don't care about the legal status of this, if it is illegal or legal, I couldn't care less, because I plan on doing it anyways(real distillation, not this freezing ****). I have Gastec Detector Tubes which I can find the amount of methanol, from which I'll determine if it's safe. Explain how concentrating these fusels is dangerous. I understand one instance where it may be considered more dangerous, that being the dose is equivalent in potency while being a much smaller volume, and people might accidentally drink too much without realizing it. In this case, you need to worry about alcohol poisoning foremost.

Instead of arguing, just tell me this. Do you believe that there is more harm in drinking a shot of applejack compared to drinking a glass of apple cider? If the alcohol levels are equivalent, the only difference is the amount of water you are drinking, I don't understand why you can't wrap your head around this.

Why does my age matter? You act me being 21 makes me so ignorant of the chemistry going on here, where I have actually been studying it for years, and as far as I know, you haven't. So tell me why this is wrong?

 

[CidahMastah]

Optimus_Pwn "Do you believe that there is more harm in drinking a shot of applejack compared to drinking a glass of apple cider?"

I believe there is more concentration of freeze distilled methanol in 1 zo of ~200 proof spirit than in one 12 oz glass of cider 10% abv cider.... absolutely

Optimus - as I laboriously have been saying.....

The true risk is probably minimal. Probably the only issue you would have would be excessive consumption over years, leading to a problem. The truth is, your level of acceptable risk is different than many other people's acceptable level - so why must you push it on others? I am not pushing mine on yours. The literature is out there to highlight the risk of improper distillation.

In your case you are actually smart regarding your manner and choice or distillation. If you are gonna cross the line, at least pick a tool, as you say you have, that will render a safe and superb product (fractional heat distillation). I personally would go your route, before freezing after fermentation. It is a safer bet in my mind.

Like I said, it is illegal, there is a risk - let each individual decide our path based on facts.

 

[Optimus_Pwn]

Do you believe that there is more harm in drinking a shot of applejack compared to drinking a glass of apple cider? If the alcohol levels are equivalent, the only difference is the amount of water you are drinking, I don't understand why you can't wrap your head around this.
QUOTE]

Optimus - as I laboriously have been saying.....

The true risk is probably minimal. Probably the only issue you would have would be excessive consumption over years, leading to a problem. The truth is, your level of acceptable risk is different than many other people's acceptable level - so why must you push it on others? I am not pushing mine on yours. The literature is out there to highlight the risk of improper distillation.

In your case you are actually smart regarding distillation. If you are gonna cross the line, at least pick a tool, as you say you have, that will render a safe and superb product. I personally would go your route, before freezing after fermentation. It is a safer bet in my mind.

Like I said, it is illegal, there is a risk - let each individual decide on facts.

Look, you're missing my point. I don't care about its legality, I don't care who does and doesn't drink it. I don't even care if it is harmful. All I am trying to say is that drinking the cider, and drinking the applejack will provide no difference in harm/benefit.

Sorry if it seemed like I was against you protecting others, because I'm not. I'm purely talking about the differences between applejack, and cider. If you drinking several glasses of apple cider every day for 20 years, you are just as likely to go blind from drinking several shots of applejack every day. This is what I'm trying to say.

 

[CidahMastah]

Listen man - I hear you and I don't mean to come across the way I did. The whole thread started up about the legality and spawned off from there, so if you aren't concerned with that than we are aguing different points.

See my edits about your specific question - re: apple jack versus cider. I humbly disagree with your last point.

With your spirit you have concentrated it (according to my 10% example) by 90%. So one ounce would have 90% more methonal than the glass of cider. Do you see where i am coming from? my example worked from a near pure spirit (~200 proof) which you would probably only get about 180-190proof.

If you are talking about different values of proof then you have a point. But I know with me, I never have 1 oz of whiskey, I have a glass, so more like 3-4 oz per each drink. Based on the realistic consumption for me, I wouldn't mess with a freeze distillate. I would only do fractional heat.

 

[Optimus_Pwn]

Listen man - I hear you and I don't mean to come across the way I did. The whole thread started up about the legality and spawned off from there, so if you aren't concerned with that than we are aguing different points.

See my edits about your specific question - re: apple jack versus cider. I humbly disagree with your last point.

With your spirit you have concentrated it (according to my 10% example) by 90%. So one ounce would have 90% more methonal than the glass of cider. Do you see where i am coming from? my example worked from a near pure spirit (~200 proof) which you would probably only get about 180-190proof.

If you are talking about different values of proof then you have a point. But I know with me, I never have 1 oz of whiskey, I have a glass, so more like 3-4 oz per each drink. Based on the realistic consumption for me, I wouldn't mess with a freeze distillate. I would only do fractional heat.

I see what you're saying now, however that doesn't change what I said, nor prove it wrong. You're agreeing with me. Although, the one place you are wrong, is saying that 1oz has 90% more methanol. It has 90% more concentrated methanol, however, taking the volume into account, you have the exact same amount of methanol. Here is a simple molarity equation:

M1V1 = M2V2

M1 is the molarity of substance(moles per liter, or molecules per liter)
V1 is the volume
M2 and V2 self explanatory

With your behavioral explanation, I completely agree.

This will be my last post, I realize this post is off topic.

 

[CidahMastah]

You are correct that it doesn't prove what effect the consumption of methanol would have. We can only lean on what literature suggests as far as how much would create side effects.

In you case, you should be able to remove any significant amount of methonal by discarding the foreshots.

So you sir.... are allowed to have a 3-4oz glass, repeatedly with only the standard alcohol risks, not the potential methonal risks.

 

[HP_Lovecraft]

so I found what I had read from annie proulx book regarding the statutes for federal law and freeze distillation.

The law quoted makes NO reference to freeze distillation. The author is simply making her own connection.

The ATF itself has said that freeze-distillation is fine as long as the alchohol levels stay within what you would expect to get from yeast.

There has been some specific rulings, such as ATF Ruling 94-3 which goes on to say "Ice Beer" is still beer.

Note: in regards to fusels, the percentage produced by the yeast is directly related to the temperature during primary fermentation. If you were really serious about making applejack, or ice beer, its probobly then a good idea to do the primary at the lowest possible temp for the yeast, just to be on the safe side.

 

[CidahMastah]

The law quoted makes NO reference to freeze distillation. The author is simply making her own connection.

The ATF itself has said that freeze-distillation is fine as long as the alchohol levels stay within what you would expect to get from yeast.

There has been some specific rulings, such as ATF Ruling 94-3 which goes on to say "Ice Beer" is still beer.

Note: in regards to fusels, the percentage produced by the yeast is directly related to the temperature during primary fermentation. If you were really serious about making applejack, or ice beer, its probobly then a good idea to do the primary at the lowest possible temp for the yeast, just to be on the safe side.

Mylanta dude..... she quoted the direct statute:

"the product derived by the drawing off of ethyl alcohol from a barrel of frozen hard cider would be considered distilled spirits as defined in 26 U.S.C 5002(a)(80)(A). It is unlawful to produce any distilled spirits at a place other than a qualified distilled spirits plant. To do so would be subject to the penalties of 26 U/S.C 560L"


This means... that the product derrived from freeze distillation (drawing ethyl alc off frozen fermented cider) would be consindered a distilled spirit as defined in 26 U.S.C. 5002(a)(80)(A). i.e. all the bolded text IS the statute, not the author's writing.

Your quote regarding ice beer has nothing to do with this. Beer is made from grains, and cider from apples. If you would take note, taxation and regulations for ciders and beers are often dealt with differently. This statute was specifically written to deal with freeze distilled cider

This time I am really done, I give up. No more posting on this.

 

[Heineken_Draught]

Just one more thing and ill stop posting too,CidahMastah you said: "Probably the only issue you would have would be excessive consumption over years, leading to a problem"
I don't think this is true because methanol just like any alcohol is not accumulated in the body so it doesn't build up, other wise you would be drunk all the time but the liver breaks down methanol if its in small quantities so if you drink a little every day you wouldn't get sicker as time passes just like if you take an aspirin every day for one year instead of 365 at once.

And also methanol is more dangerous when in high concentrations and in the absence of ethanol because as far as I know ethanol is a cure for methanol.I found this on wikipedia(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methanol#Health_and_safety):
"Methanol poisoning can be treated with the antidotes ethanol or fomepizole.Both of these drugs act to reduce the action of alcohol dehydrogenase on methanol by means of competitive inhibition, so that it is excreted by the kidneys rather than being transformed into toxic metabolites."
And also read this: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1306022/

You also said that because apples are high in pectin you would get more methanol concentrations in cider, well what turns pectin into methanol?,not yeast through fermentation but pectic enzyme which is added by the homebrewer, if you don't add pectic enzyme to you're pasteurized apple juice there is a pectic haze after fermentation right? This means that the pectin wasn't turned into methanol,I never clear my cider with pectic enzyme because I think it's a useless harmful chemical and I don't get why some people are so fussy about the pectic haze and use the enzyme.

To conclude if cider is concentrated into applejack which is about 40% ABV
there is nowhere near enough methanol to cause methanol poisoning before normal alcohol poisoning sets in.
And I also object to the fact that you recommend heat distillation with a still instead of fractional freezing,the former is far more dangerous, if you don't know exactly what you're doing you can end up with a bomb or a fire and something that is far more toxic than fractional freezing the cider. When you freeze all you have to do is wait for it to freeze and then separate the ice from the liquid, if you ask me this is more safe.
Oh and if the ATF find a still in you're house "Lucy, you got some 'splainin' to do" but there is no way they can bust you for having cider in the fridge,are you saying distilled moonshine is safer than frozen applejack?

 

[Brew_Master]

Ok so after I read some stuff on http://homedistiller.org/methanol.htm I found that methanol is in extremely low quantities in spirits:
"How dangerous are the various fusel oils ? I've got some of them listed below.
The ones with toxicity data listed are ...
* Methanol : usual fatal dose 100-250 mL
* 1-Pentanol : LD50 (rat) 3030 mg/kg
* 3-Pentanol : LD50 (rat) 1870 mg/kg

Compare this to the amounts present in distilled spirits. The data in Wheeler & Willmotts "Spirits unlimited - a complete guide to home distilling" gives :
* Home distilled spirit (untreated): methanol 0.0067%, ethanol 99.632%, fusils 0.361%
* Commercial vodka: methanol 0.013%, ethanol 99.507%, fusils 0.48%
* Poor quality home distilled spirit : methanol 0.0186%, ethanol 98.453%, and fusils 1.528%

If you're talking about untreated spirits as being dangerous, then to reach the LD50's that are published, you'd need to consume 149 L to be affected by the methanol, or for a 90kg bloke, about 58 L for the pentanol, from the "good" homemade stuff. That would be one hell of a session ! Even on their "poor quality" brew you'd need 11 L for the fusels. Stock standard pissed-as-a-newt high-school-student alcohol poisoning is the greater problem."

And as for the pectin issue:

"The methanol comes from the pectin, which mainly composed of methyl esters of galactose. When pectin breaks down, by enzymes introduced by microorganisms, or deliberately introduced, the methyl esters combine with water to produce methanol, so the aim should be to leave the pectin well alone if you can.
I think Jack would agree that what he means is that fermenting at a high temperature, or adding pectin enzyme, or trying for an abv higher than 12% all increase the risk of methanol being produced, so his advice about low temperature fermentation, adding no exra enzymes, and a target lower than 12%abv is all good stuff."

So in the end I also agree that freeze concentration is't all that bad, I mean if you concentrate a 10% cider to 30% ABV one glass of applejack would contain the same methanol as 3 glasses of cider and 2 glasses of applejack would be the same as 5-6 glasses of cider so about a quart,would a quart a cider give you methanol poisoning, most certainly not, would you drink more than 2 big wine glasses of 30% ABV applejack, well if you do you'll get realy drunk and pass out
Heat distillation with a still on the other hand is far more dangerous and highly illegal, moonshiners beware

 

[goaler29]

Mylanta dude..... she quoted the direct statute:

"the product derived by the drawing off of ethyl alcohol from a barrel of frozen hard cider would be considered distilled spirits as defined in 26 U.S.C 5002(a)(80)(A). It is unlawful to produce any distilled spirits at a place other than a qualified distilled spirits plant. To do so would be subject to the penalties of 26 U/S.C 560L"


This means... that the product derrived from freeze distillation (drawing ethyl alc off frozen fermented cider) would be consindered a distilled spirit as defined in 26 U.S.C. 5002(a)(80)(A). i.e. all the bolded text IS the statute, not the author's writing.

Your quote regarding ice beer has nothing to do with this. Beer is made from grains, and cider from apples. If you would take note, taxation and regulations for ciders and beers are often dealt with differently. This statute was specifically written to deal with freeze distilled cider

This time I am really done, I give up. No more posting on this.

cidamastah did you actually look it up? I did. and its not what the statute says. The closest thing in the statute but is still not specific to fractional freezing is,

"(A) produces distilled spirits from any source or substance, (B) brews or makes mash, wort, or wash fit for distillation or for the production of distilled spirits (other than the making or using of mash, wort, or wash in the authorized production of wine or beer, or the production of vinegar by fermentation), (C) by any process separates alcoholic spirits from any fermented substance, or (D) making or keeping mash, wort, or wash, has a still in his possession or use."

That is straight from 26 U.S.C 5002(a)(80)(A). Now, it also says
"(8) Distilled spirits
The terms "distilled spirits", "alcoholic spirits", and
"spirits" mean that substance known as ethyl alcohol, ethanol, or
spirits of wine in any form (including all dilutions and mixtures
thereof from whatever source or by whatever process produced)."

Wouldn't that make, making wine at home illegal? No because clearly it is. If you are gonna quote a source, make damn sure the source is credible. I checked several websites and all were the same on the statute.

here are a couple of my sources.
http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/uscode/26/E/51/A/I/A/5002
http://vlex.com/vid/sec-definitions-19210923

The only thing ill give you is the possibility that when said book you obtained quote from, was written maybe the language in the statute was different. As I quoted it is the way it is right now.

 

[CidahMastah]

Goaler - the quote was taken from a published book.... that is a credible source. Even your statute indicates "(C) by any process separates alcoholic spirits from any fermented substance" (Alcoholic spirits = ethanol)

By fitting the criteria of A, B, C, or D you would fit the definition of a distiller. To be a legal distiller you have to operate at a "qualified distilled spirits plant". To do otherwise would put offenders subject to the penalties of 26 U/S.C 560L.

(4) Distiller
The term "distiller" includes any person who -
(A) produces distilled spirits from any source or substance,
(B) brews or makes mash, wort, or wash fit for distillation
or for the production of distilled spirits (other than the
making or using of mash, wort, or wash in the authorized
production of wine or beer, or the production of vinegar by
fermentation),
(C) by any process separates alcoholic spirits from any
fermented substance, or
(D) making or keeping mash, wort, or wash, has a still in his
possession or use.


"any process" = freeze distillation, or freeze concentration or whatever you want to call it.

You just proved the legality issue, yet again, as being illegal. Thank you.

The book I quoted it from I referenced earlier on and the page I took it from (page 205 of Annie Proulx's well respected Cider making book).