apfelwein - when to bottle?

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TSR6

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I'm fermenting some apfelwein right now. I only have a carboy and airlock - i dont have the meter for gravity.

The airlock has just about stopped bubbling, but i still see bubbles coming up in the carboy. I know I can let it sit for quite a while - i was planning on a week or two more. Anything I can watch for, or should I wait till tuesday when the homebrew shop opens and actually get a meter?

yes im a newb.
 
I'd rack it to a secondary in another 3 weeks or so, and bottle in about 5 months. And crack the first on on Chritstmas, NEXT year...or maybe thanksgiving.

This is a game of patience and we are rewarded with great tasting stuff.

Hell last time I tried serving folks cider less than 3 months old they refused it. Even six. So I don't bother til it's been bottle conditioned for 6 months, and bulk aged for 5-6 months prior. I make mine around x-mas to serve the next year.

This may give you some more incentive to wait.

I have been brewing cider for somewhat over a year, and I haven't found anything that I've made that doesn't suck (nekkidness and straws not withstanding), and I was feeling pretty dismal about the whole thing. Until I came across one that had been overlooked in my disgust. I figured I'd better drink it, or at least sample it, to complete my degradation. It was surprisingly good. Really, really good. My faith in humanity was restored, and more importantly, my self-respect. So WHAT if the first batches tasted like sump water? So WHAT if small animals passed out from the smell? So WHAT if I could successfully use it as a rodenticide? Eventually, even *I* could make something ... remotely drinkable.

So I haven't given up. My patience hasn't gotten a LOT better, but now I can see what they were talking about when they kept saying to LEAVE IT ALONE.

If your results are like mine, you'll be pretty blah about the out-of-the-vessle results, and at 3 months, not much better. Bottle them. Hide them. Lock them up. Forget about them. Start another batch, on blind faith if you have to. Then start another. Set a timer or mark your calendar, or even do a Google reminder. Open one of the original puppies up and give it a sample. Compare it to the batch you're getting ready to bottle. It'll make it easier to salt them away for another day.
 
I only have a primary, nothing else :) I'm doing this the budget way. From what I was reading, I can still keep it in the primary for a couple months then bottle?

literally, I have a primary and a bunch of used / cleaned bottles. I'll get caps & a capper once this is good to go...

budget brewing at it's best.. lol...
 
I only have a primary, nothing else :) I'm doing this the budget way. From what I was reading, I can still keep it in the primary for a couple months then bottle?

literally, I have a primary and a bunch of used / cleaned bottles. I'll get caps & a capper once this is good to go...

budget brewing at it's best.. lol...

I think I've done priamry only on it...In fact I believe Ed talks about not doing anything til it is perfectly clear, and that may be several months.
 
I think I've done priamry only on it...In fact I believe Ed talks about not doing anything til it is perfectly clear, and that may be several months.

Yes. It'll usually clear in six weeks, but I've left mine in the primary 3+ months with no problem...
 
Thats my plan as long as it works - I just want to make sure I dont bottle it too early.

This is my first brew.
 
Thats my plan as long as it works - I just want to make sure I dont bottle it too early.

This is my first brew.

Well if you bottle too early and your added sugar to carbonate you might get bottle bombs.

If you bottled too soon and it was done fermenting, but needed to condition, they you just let them condition.
 
If you bottled too soon and it was done fermenting, but needed to condition, they you just let them condition.

You mean too late? then I can just let it condition, right? :)

Thats what I was afraid of - bottle bombs... lol. I've read a couple fun stories on those...
 
I started fermenting it on 10/23 - think I should bottle it soon? It's pretty clear, and barely bubbling. Not enough to hit the airlock, just slight bubbles in the 5gal jug.
 
I started my last (5 gallon) apfelwein october 20th. Still in the fermenter. I will probably bottle 1 or two gallons in early january, then sorbate and campden (kmeta, or sodium metabisulfite) let the 3 or 4 gallons sit for another month or two and then backsweeten and then bottle. My first batch was bottled after about 6 weeks. It was Ok. But I want to see what aging and sweetening will do to it.
 
I wait till mine totally clears. The bubbling will have long stopped by the time it clears. The first batch cleared at a little over a month, this current batch is on month 3 and still isn't where I want it. If there is one thing this hobby will teach you it is patience.

http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter10-3.html
I have some pineapple wine that sat on the yeast cake for too long and had a slight burnt rubber taste that aging is taking care of. Now I am vigilant about racking off of the yeast cake.

Do you have anyway to rack off of the yeast if it takes longer than a month and a half to clear. Big pot? You can get a 5 gal bucket from home depot for a few bucks that you can use as a temporary holding vessel while washing yeast out of the carboy and a primary fermenter for beer or bigger batches of wine later. If all else fails you can go to the bakery at your grocery store and ask for one of the big frosting containers - Mine gave me 2 for free (they are 5 gals and should have a rubber grommet to seal the lid). And some tubing to run a siphon.

My first batch was bottled a little prematurely. It was what I thought was clear at the time, but there was some yeast on the bottom of the bottles. We drank those before they could get any age on them. My second batch was really tart at bottling, I just tried one out last week (6 months) and the tartness was gone and there was a lot more apple flavor. Completely different wine. I can only imagine what it will taste like after a year.

My current batch has been racked 3 times. Once after all visible fermentation was done I think it was a month and a week. Sat in secondary for 4 weeks and has been racked for a third time. There is no visible yeast in the bottom of the carboy and I think that although it will be clear to my liking for bottling I am going to bulk age this batch in the carboy for 6 months before bottling since I don't need the space.

If I could start all over again I would:
First. Keep track of dates. Write down the day you made, all of your rackings, bottling. Put the date or a reference number of the wine on the bottle cap. I just started making for fun, but soon realized how valuable some record keeping would be to track progress.

Second. Start a second batch now if you can even if it is in a bucket. Brewing was kind of a chore because I felt like I was always keeping up and nothing was ever drank at it's prime. Friends and family would come over and drink all of my supply; then I HAD to brew / make more wine just to keep up. Now that I have a wine going perpetually, and an additional 16.5 gallons of fermenting vessels, It takes a lot of pressure off of me and allows me to be more patient and enjoy brewing.

Third. Get bigger vessels. I started out with 1 gallon wine batches and 2.5 gallon beer. All that time and effort and I was getting 10-25 bottles of wine and beer. It isn't worth the effort because bigger batches are just as easy.
 
beerwars, have you fermented apfelwine in buckets?

i only have 2 secondaries, and they're for lagering....tying one up for 9 months is kind of out of the question.
 

You do realize that John Palmer no longer believes this, and he's dropped that section from subsequent editions? This is his new belief.....

John Palmer said:
Tom from Michigan asks:
I have a few questions about secondary fermentations. I've read both pros and cons for 2nd fermentations and it is driving me crazy what to do. One, are they necessary for lower Gravity beers?
Two, what is the dividing line between low gravity and high gravity beers? Is it 1.060 and higher?
Three, I have an American Brown Ale in the primary right now, a SG of 1.058, Should I secondary ferment this or not?
Your advice is appreciated, thanks for all you do!

Allen from New York asks:

John, please talk about why or why not you would NOT use a secondary fermenter (bright tank?) and why or why not a primary only fermentation is a good idea. In other words, give some clarification or reason why primary only is fine, versus the old theory of primary then secondary normal gravity ale fermentations.

Palmer answers:

These are good questions – When and why would you need to use a secondary fermenter? First some background – I used to recommend racking a beer to a secondary fermenter. My recommendation was based on the premise that (20 years ago) larger (higher gravity) beers took longer to ferment completely, and that getting the beer off the yeast reduced the risk of yeast autolysis (ie., meaty or rubbery off-flavors) and it allowed more time for flocculation and clarification, reducing the amount of yeast and trub carryover to the bottle. Twenty years ago, a homebrewed beer typically had better flavor, or perhaps less risk of off-flavors, if it was racked off the trub and clarified before bottling. Today that is not the case.

The risk inherent to any beer transfer, whether it is fermenter-to-fermenter or fermenter-to-bottles, is oxidation and staling. Any oxygen exposure after fermentation will lead to staling, and the more exposure, and the warmer the storage temperature, the faster the beer will go stale.

Racking to a secondary fermenter used to be recommended because staling was simply a fact of life – like death and taxes. But the risk of autolysis was real and worth avoiding – like cholera. In other words, you know you are going to die eventually, but death by cholera is worth avoiding.

But then modern medicine appeared, or in our case, better yeast and better yeast-handling information. Suddenly, death by autolysis is rare for a beer because of two factors: the freshness and health of the yeast being pitched has drastically improved, and proper pitching rates are better understood. The yeast no longer drop dead and burst like Mr. Creosote from Monty Python’s The Meaning of Life when fermentation is complete – they are able to hibernate and wait for the next fermentation to come around. The beer has time to clarify in the primary fermenter without generating off-flavors. With autolysis no longer a concern, staling becomes the main problem. The shelf life of a beer can be greatly enhanced by avoiding oxygen exposure and storing the beer cold (after it has had time to carbonate).

Therefore I, and Jamil and White Labs and Wyeast Labs, do not recommend racking to a secondary fermenter for ANY ale, except when conducting an actual second fermentation, such as adding fruit or souring. Racking to prevent autolysis is not necessary, and therefore the risk of oxidation is completely avoidable. Even lagers do not require racking to a second fermenter before lagering. With the right pitching rate, using fresh healthy yeast, and proper aeration of the wort prior to pitching, the fermentation of the beer will be complete within 3-8 days (bigger = longer). This time period includes the secondary or conditioning phase of fermentation when the yeast clean up acetaldehyde and diacetyl. The real purpose of lagering a beer is to use the colder temperatures to encourage the yeast to flocculate and promote the precipitation and sedimentation of microparticles and haze.

So, the new rule of thumb: don’t rack a beer to a secondary, ever, unless you are going to conduct a secondary fermentation.

THIS is where the latest discussion and all your questions answered.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/secondary-not-john-palmer-jamil-zainasheff-weigh-176837/

We basically proved that old theory wrong on here 5 years ago, and now the rest fo the brewing community is catching up. Though a lot of old dogs don't tend to follow the latest news, and perpetuate the old stuff.

The autolysis from prolong yeast contact has fallen by the wayside, in fact yeast contact is now seen as a good thing.

In fact if not in this thread, than another "when to bottle my apfelwen" many have said that they leave it in primary til it clears.
 
beerwars, have you fermented apfelwine in buckets?

i only have 2 secondaries, and they're for lagering....tying one up for 9 months is kind of out of the question.

I have not completely fermented wine in a bucket. But I wouldn't have a problem giving it a try. I make my wine in a dedicated Better Bottle so I can see what is going on.

Usually I rack to the bucket, clean out the carboy and rack back into the carboy the same day. This current batch spent 4 weeks in the bucket while I did some experiments on 1/2 batches of beer.
 
You do realize that John Palmer no longer believes this, and he's dropped that section from subsequent editions? This is his new belief.....



THIS is where the latest discussion and all your questions answered.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/secondary-not-john-palmer-jamil-zainasheff-weigh-176837/

We basically proved that old theory wrong on here 5 years ago, and now the rest fo the brewing community is catching up. Though a lot of old dogs don't tend to follow the latest news, and perpetuate the old stuff.

The autolysis from prolong yeast contact has fallen by the wayside, in fact yeast contact is now seen as a good thing.

In fact if not in this thread, than another "when to bottle my apfelwen" many have said that they leave it in primary til it clears.

Are you saying never rack off the yeast until you bottle or not till it clears? If it is not till it clears that is basically what I do. Once all the bubbling stops it will begin to slowly clear. Once I can see my hand on the other side - I rack, then rack again after 4 more weeks.

I would say that is accurate as long as you are pitching fresh yeast for each batch. I reused the yeast cake (something that I no longer do) from a batch of Apfelwein to make my Pineapple wine (with no additional nutrient - my bad) and I had a slight taste of burnt rubber at bottling. I was told that it was autoyalsis. I don't worry about it with 4 week beer fermentations, but perhaps I am overly cautious when it comes to wine making because of the time involved start to finish.
 
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