Anything wrong with shaking the homebrew/wine after it starts to ferment?

[1776]

simple question.

My reasoning is that its ok because by the time its fermenting all the oxygen has escaped through the airlock so there's no risk of oxidization.

Would like to know what you guys have to say though.

 

[FattySparks]

My question is why would you want to shake it?

 

[ravhawk2000]

If I'm correct in my thinking, its not a completely airtight seal. Although its pretty well sealed. however, there is still air on top of the container and shaking it can still oxidize the wort and cause problems with your fermentation. I wouldn't risk it and only move it if absolutely needed.

 

[bgrayson726]

Typically you will want to be as careful as possible while transporting your beer. You do not want to add any oxygen after fermentation has completed. While transporting my beer from my fermenting fridge to my kitchen, I lift slowly and set it down slowly, but there is some minor splashing going on. This should be okay as long as you haven't removed the lid or airlock from the bucket/carboy because (as you said), the oxygen should have been pushed out during fermentation, therefore you have little to no risk of oxidation.

However, if you removed the lid to check for a gravity reading or anything like that, be even more cautious while transporting your beer.

 

[1776]

My question is why would you want to shake it?

I feel that shaking it makes it so that the yeast can attack ALL the sugars in there. for some reason I believe that when the airlock stops bubbling that the yeast is pretty much just 'sleeping' on the bottom and shaking it moves them around again to keep eating sugars.

 

[FattySparks]

No, not at all. Those yeast aren't going to wake back up unless you add more sugar. They have their own ecosystem. When the amount of food decreases and can't support the entire population they start "dying" off. I wouldn't shake it, there are too many other adverse effects to doing that.

I wouldn't worry about it and let the yeast do there thing.

Plus how would you do it w/o taking the airlock off and thus exposing it to oxygen.

 

[1776]

No, not at all. Those yeast aren't going to wake back up unless you add more sugar. They have their own ecosystem. When the amount of food decreases and can't support the entire population they start "dying" off. I wouldn't shake it, there are too many other adverse effects to doing that.

I wouldn't worry about it and let the yeast do there thing.

Plus how would you do it w/o taking the airlock off and thus exposing it to oxygen.

I usually just rock it back and forth or swivel it, never taking the airlock off.

I won't shake in the future but cant you tell me some of the adverse effects it will cause?

 

[ReDim]

swivel, or swirl if you have to.

Airlock has a liquid in it, if you do shake it, the liquid in the airlock may get into wart.

But back to the question of "why " ?

 

[FattySparks]

I usually just rock it back and forth or swivel it, never taking the airlock off.

I won't shake in the future but cant you tell me some of the adverse effects it will cause?

Possible (albeit slight risk) of oxidation, cloudy beer.

The better explanation would be I can't think of any positive effects.

The yeast don't completely die out unless you pasteurize or a long period of time passes any way. So The yeast will take care of all the fermentable sugars without having to be disturbed by shaking or stirring.

 

[1776]

Thanks for the responses. I learned something from this thread.

 

[gypsyhead]

what's the OG of the wort? Some beers (high grav) need a little extra oxygen to promote propagation, and so a rousing of the yeast and a little extra O2 boost during the first 16hours is recommended, but if you're doing a hoppy beer or anything at a fairly low/average gravity, as long as you pitch a decent amount of yeast, you shouldn't need a re-oxidation. If you're doing a 10 gallon batch with a single vial, maybe an extra oxy boost would help, but beyond that, dude, if you're getting the proper FG, RDWHAHB. If you're not, well then, let's start talking about oxygen during the yeast growth phase.

 

[venquessa]

I have found with my last 2 ferments, the ones I have watched intently, that after the first aerobic phase where the foam fills the heads space that there is a period where everything calms down. Even the pressure drops and the puffed up lid relaxes.

I've left it like that for 2 days and it did very little. So I swivelled the bucket a few times, no sloshing, no aeration, just a sharp swivel one way and the next.

Both times I have done this, within 2 hours the lid has puffed up and the airlock has started. If the yeast look like they want to take another little rest in a day or two I do it again and usually again the airlock kicks off. Usually this only fails to get a reaction when the ferment is done.

I can't see how this would oxydize the beer, I hope. I just think the yeasties get lazy in whatever temps/conditions I'm fermenting in. It definately seems to work though and kick them into gear again.

 

[Piratwolf]

This is an interesting thread, and has brought up a couple of thoughts for me.

1. I've never sloshed, swiveled, or otherwise purposely disturbed my wort, and in every case (20 batches or so in the last 12 months) it has reached or gone lower than the expected FG. So it's not necessary.

2. Much of the stuff on the bottom of your fermenter is NOT yeast, so don't take that as a sign that the yeast have gotten lazy The trub is composed of all kinds of break material, hops, etc., as well as yeast that has flocculated and precipitated.

3. This can be a touchy subject around here, so I'll put it as exactly as I can: airlock bubbles and off-gassing (puffing lids or carboys) may or may not indicate fermentation. So if you want to KNOW rather than guess, it's wise to take a hydrometer reading! Then you don't have to guess from secondary indications

All that being said, I love reading posts like this because it shows such excitement for this hobby/obsession that we all love. HBT is great because I can keep learning and keep brewing better beer!!

Cheers!

 

[DannyD]

have to agree with "piratwolf" even clear beer has yeast in suspesion! and then there is airation. I think it is a myth! and even if its not there is alot of other stuff you will screw up to cause off flavour.....(i find myself always thinking of yorkshire squares when this comes up)

 

[venquessa]

So... theory and experience asides, based on experimental evidence, why does swivelling the barrel produce a near immediate increase in activity?

"increase in activity" is granted based on those "secondary indications" you mention as "unreliable".

However, if all other things remain static, the airlock is not bubbling, the barrel is not under pressure, and you swivel the barrel, the airlock starts to bubble and the barrel looks under pressure.

Also, the first 2 brews I did, I left them still for the entire time, had the intense first foaming with puffed up lid, but promptly slowed down to virtually nothing happening. 7 days later and the FG was higher than it should be by a margin.

The first one I swivelled every few days, if it looked slow, and 7 days later and an FG lower than expected and nice smelling, clean beer. Although, I have yet to condition it, it tasted better than the first 2 out of the barrel.

I know the party line. Leave it longer instead. Still doesn't disprove that gently disturbing the ferment seems to speed it up.

I'm thinking it's not about disturbing the trub or waking up the yeast, but more to do with the yeast colonies not being spread evenly throughout the wort, if left alone you have to wait on them growing through the beer. Create an occasional current in the wort causes the active colonies that may be running out of sugar where they are to spread through out the wort and work better on more sugar rich wort again This is all conjecture though.

And, finally, sure, the party line advice of "Just leave it longer, if it's slow and takes 4 weeks, it's just slow and takes 4 weeks", will still work and will probably lower the risk of off flavors.

 

[user 21663]

When I dry hop, I will gently swirl the carboy every other day to get the hops back into suspension ( a trick I picked up from Nathan Smith when he did the Green Flash clone on CYBI ). Never had issues with oxidation or cloudy beer. I don't remove the airlock or blowoff tube when I do this however, so the beer is only swirling around in CO2.

 

[J187]

I feel that shaking it makes it so that the yeast can attack ALL the sugars in there. for some reason I believe that when the airlock stops bubbling that the yeast is pretty much just 'sleeping' on the bottom and shaking it moves them around again to keep eating sugars.

If this was the case, your beer would never carbonate when you rack to a bottling bucket. It's not like there are 7 yeast cells in there and you've gotta shake them around to make sure they get to every spot. There are several billion cells/ml in there. No need to shake to get the job done. If anything, you 'could' still introduce some oxygen by moving it around - I wouldn't guess that would be a big problem unless you were planning to store for a long time I think. Still, no reason to move it around = leave it alone and let nature happen IMHO.

 

[pjj2ba]

There is nothing wrong with giving the fermentor a swirl. I'd wait until the bulk of fermentation is over though because the activity of the yeast does a pretty good job of swirling themselves initially. At this point any oxygen is long gone. Swirling can be recommended if using highly flocculating yeast as they are prone to settling out too early. Also with high gravity beers this can help to keep the yeast in suspension where they are MUCH more metabolically active.

I like to swirl when I dry hop. Otherwise they often will just sit on top. I wait a day after adding for the yeast to consume any O2 that got in (or just purge with CO2 and go).

As to the party line that it takes 4 weeks for a beer to be ready to package. That is simply an overly cautious way to guarantee the beer is done fermenting. A properly pitched and aerated wort of a reasonable starting gravity can easily finish fermentation in 5 -7 days, and then another 10 days or so of bulk aging and then it is ready to package.

It is easy just to wait a couple extra weeks to be sure that the beer is ready to package, but that doesn't mean it isn't ready earlier.

 

[gr8shandini]

I wouldn't say that there's no positive effect to agitating the beer after vigorous fermentation is over. "Rousing" the yeast by shaking or swirling the fermenter is a fairly common practice to ensure complete fermentation when using highly flocculent yeasts. True, most of the flocs will just fall back to the bottom, but you'll kick enough yeast back into suspension to get 'em to do their job properly.

 

[Piratwolf]

So... theory and experience asides, based on experimental evidence, why does swivelling the barrel produce a near immediate increase in activity?

My reply was intended in good faith for a new brewer and based on reading the work of pros, people whose opinions I trust on HBT because they provide evidence, and on my own experience and experiments.

If you wish to disagree, that's ok. It's your beer and this is the USA. Caveat emptor, YMMV, non serviam, Do What Thou Wilt.

 

[venquessa]

My reply was intended in good faith for a new brewer and based on reading the work of pros, people whose opinions I trust on HBT because they provide evidence, and on my own experience and experiments.

I was just asking a question, not saying you are wrong.

If someone tells me that kicking the cat will not do anything and I kick the cat and it shreds my favourite curtains, I may be inclined to ask, "Then why did my cat shred my curtains."

 

[Piratwolf]

I was just asking a question, not saying you are wrong.

Understood. I'm also not saying I'm right... just why I think what I think.

If someone tells me that kicking the cat will not do anything and I kick the cat and it shreds my favourite curtains, I may be inclined to ask, "Then why did my cat shred my curtains."

I started to reply to this earlier... guess I shoulda stuck with it.

To me, the short version is this: I've seen beer that I KNOW is done fermenting (static hydrometer values over a week's time) start bubbling when I walk by. If it's done fermenting, then the gasses must come from another source. Inspecting the trub, I see gaps in the surface with little bubbles still trickling out. That makes me suspect, although I cannot KNOW without having measured before & after, that gasses get trapped in the trub and escape when one shakes. That would be, to me, a "secondary indication" that I don't find "reliable" as evidence of increased fermentation.

As for the "party line", I do not make it a practice to do 4 weeks in primary. Most of mine are probably between 10 and 20 days, then bottled or bulk aged in brite tank. (Soon I can add, "or kegged"! ) And if people find that swirling or shaking their beer yields a positive cost/benefit outcome, then they should go with it. I just don't want to oxidate my beer... and whether it comes from shaking or not, oxidation DOES occur and makes me sad because I like my beer without cardboard flavors.

 

[gr8shandini]

. . . To me, the short version is this: I've seen beer that I KNOW is done fermenting (static hydrometer values over a week's time) start bubbling when I walk by. If it's done fermenting, then the gasses must come from another source. Inspecting the trub, I see gaps in the surface with little bubbles still trickling out. That makes me suspect, although I cannot KNOW without having measured before & after, that gasses get trapped in the trub and escape when one shakes. That would be, to me, a "secondary indication" that I don't find "reliable" as evidence of increased fermentation. . .

What's actually happening here is that the beer is partially carbonated from the primary fermentation. The trub simply provides nucleation sites for bubbles to form when the solution is disturbed. So, yes, the initial off-gassing after shaking a fermenter is not a sign of fermentation. But that doesn't mean that additional fermentation won't take place after rousing the yeast.

Also, I wouldn't worry about oxidizing your beer unless it's spent a lot of time with the lid/stopper or airlock removed. Barring huge temperature swings, the airlock is pretty much a one-way device, so the gas above the beer following primary is almost 100% CO2, not air.

 

[JonK331]

simple question.

My reasoning is that its ok because by the time its fermenting all the oxygen has escaped through the airlock so there's no risk of oxidization.

Would like to know what you guys have to say though.

So when I first started brewing I used to swirl my carboys just like you would a starter. I realized in time that the beer was not turning out as clean as if I just left them alone. If you dial in the right fermentation temp, there is no need to swirl.