Anyone who lived in Germany circa mid 80's. Beer seems different.

[BruceH]

Hi,

I was stationed in Germany from 86 to 88. The local premium beer was Bitburger and the local house beer was usually Kirn Pils.

I enjoyed a variety of beers during the two years I was there but I have to say that the Bitburger I purchase in the states doesn't taste the same.

Fast forward to September 2017. My wife and I took a European vacation. The Heineken in Holland was much better than what is sold here. Warsteiner in Germany tasted better than what I buy here. Everywhere we went the beer was better than the same brand in the states.

One big surprise was in France. I order "whatever you think is the best beer" because I don't recognize any of the selections. The waiter comes back with a Kronenbourg 1664. It was one of the best beers I've ever had. Once I get back home and look for it I find that I can get it here. One big difference, it doesn't have half the flavor and it's in a green bottle.

Anyone else notice a big difference between what you get in Europe and what the same brand tastes like in the US? Don't even get me started on the crap Lowenbrau they sell here, it's so different from the German varieties.

 

[triethylborane]

confirmation bias perhaps

 

[BruceH]

confirmation bias perhaps

Forgive me for asking but what does that mean?

 

[MaxStout]

The beer is fresher over there. It probably loses some of its flavor on that long boat ride over here.

 

[Hoppy2bmerry]

I often wonder why green or clear glass is used for any beer. And I agree, with Max by the time we get it, it has aged. Also, what ever the difference is for beer on tap tasting better. I've had Heineken in the Carribean that tasted better than here. Perhaps it was fresher (at the time there were only 3-4 brands available) perhaps the recipies are tweaked for the tastes of the destination.

A little off topic... I recently saw Miller High Life in the vintage style clear bottles in the craft pick your own 6 pack section! Who would do that? Who would pay $11 for a six of skunky Miller? SMH

 

[Kharnynb]

Not sure about german brands, a lot are owned by inbev and just contract brewed in the US, but heineken is always brewed in Holland, it's actually one of their rules that they don't brew the main brand in other countries(they'll have sub-brands for local production).

It should be the same beer, so any differences are in storage/time, try a can?

 

[MaxStout]

I often wonder why green or clear glass is used for any beer. And I agree, with Max by the time we get it, it has aged. Also, what ever the difference is for beer on tap tasting better. I've had Heineken in the Carribean that tasted better than here. Perhaps it was fresher (at the time there were only 3-4 brands available) perhaps the recipies are tweaked for the tastes of the destination.

A little off topic... I recently saw Miller High Life in the vintage style clear bottles in the craft pick your own 6 pack section! Who would do that? Who would pay $11 for a six of skunky Miller? SMH

A lot of the bottle color choices are branding. Everyone recognizes the green Heineken bottles or clear Corona bottles. And IIRC, Miller uses some kind of refined hop extract that has the skunky precursers removed, so the beer stays fresher in those clear bottles. Not sure about the others. But adding MHL to a pick-your-own 6-pack is heresy.

 

[Hoppy2bmerry]

Not sure about the others. But adding MHL to a pick-your-own 6-pack is heresy.

It sure the heck is!

 

[Cavpilot2000]

Freshness matters.
Even a sealed bottle is going to have some oxygen ingress over time, and as we all know, oxygen is the enemy.

 

[homebrewer_99]

I was stationed in Germany twice, Augsburg, 1975-1979 and Bamberg, 1999-2004.

I had a neighbor in Bamberg who was a Haseroder salesman and a friend who was a Warsteiner salesman. I never cared for either beer (even the free ones they gave me).

IMO, the beers are different because of freshness and delivery time/distance to destination.

 

[Smellyglove]

It's the time and handling (stored warm is the biggest culprit for all beers imo) taking it's toll.

Even up here in Norway, northern EU, an imported bottle doesn't taste as fresh and nice as a bottle in germany. The hops fade, the malt fades etc. And, crown caps are not oxygen "tight". You'll se an ingress of oxygen through the crown liner when it's been saturated with gas. It sounds strange because the bottle has a higher pressure than the ambient atmosphere, but it's due to diffusion through the crown liner. Oxygen makes it way into the beer over time.

I stopped buying American hoppy beers long time ago, if they are imported from the US, you're in for a bad ride.

 

[BruceH]

Thanks for the replies. Now that I've thought about it I do remember the bartender in Amsterdam asking if I wanted regular or import Heineken. I asked for what was sold in the Netherlands. It was good.

This brings me to another memory from the 80's in Germany. I had a roommate who drank Heineken. It always came in brown bottles and iirc it was a pils.

I guess the bottom line is that I should go back to Germany and drink beer this summer. For research purposes.

 

[brewbama]

I was in Germany ‘87-‘90. Bitburger was the national brand and NEVER ordered. Our local mega was Eichbaum http://www.eichbaum.com but I preferred the smaller hausbrauerie like Woinemer http://www.woinemer-hausbrauerei.de

Edit: Schmucker https://www.schmucker-bier.de/index.htm was good stuff, too.

 

[BruceH]

I was in Germany ‘87-‘90. Bitburger was the national brand and NEVER ordered. Our local mega was Eichbaum http://www.eichbaum.com but I preferred the smaller hausbrauerie like Woinemer http://www.woinemer-hausbrauerei.de

Bit was the premium beer where I was. Hahn AB in the Hunsruck. Most house beer was Kirn. On base I usually had a Lowenbrau Export but anywhere else I just asked for a beer if I was drinking beer.

Where were you stationed?

 

[MaxStout]

I remember the big national brands back in the '80s--Beck's, Bitburger, Henninger, Lowenbrau, etc. It was OK, but the best beers were the little local brews. It seemed every town with at least a few thousand people had a good, locally-owned brewery. The original "microbrewers," if you will.

 

[brewbama]

Bit was the premium beer where I was. Hahn AB in the Hunsruck. Most house beer was Kirn. On base I usually had a Lowenbrau Export but anywhere else I just asked for a beer if I was drinking beer.

Where were you stationed?

I was in Mannheim on Coleman Barracks.

... the best beers were the little local brews. It seemed every town with at least a few thousand people had a good, locally-owned brewery. The original "microbrewers," if you will.

+1

 

[motosapiens]

I was stationed in Germany twice, Augsburg, 1975-1979 and Bamberg, 1999-2004.

Intel or artillery? or something else.

I was in Augsburg from 85-91. I think freshness is likely the key to the OP's question.

We traveled to prague a couple times, and the difference between czech exports and german pilsners vs the real deal in the czech republic was pretty dramatic. I've never been a pilsner fan, except when in cz.

 

[Minky]

Back in the Early 90's, I bought a framed glass advertising sign for Furstenberg beer at a local Goodwill. It is brewed in Donaueschingen. I saw recently that the draft version is now being imported to the US. Anyone tried it or know where in the US it is being served?

 

[Cavpilot2000]

I spend a lot of time in Germany now (my fiancee is from there).
Warsteiner is kinda the Budweiser of Germany. Bit is decent, even here (in a can), but none of them are going to be as good here as over there (freshness).
I always go for the smaller, local brews when over there though. I'm lucky though because most of my time there is in Franconia (northern Bavaria), which is probably the best beer region in Germany. You have Rauchbier and true traditional (amber) Kellerbier and tons of other good stuff available everywhere in addition to the Munchener Helles and Dunkel styles. Up north all you get is Pils and Kolsch it seems.

Go local , Go fresh, and there is still some AMAZING beer to be had in Germany (especially Bavaria, and ESPECIALLY Franconia).

 

[homebrewer_99]

Intel or artillery? or something else.

I was in Augsburg from 85-91. I think freshness is likely the key to the OP's question.

We traveled to prague a couple times, and the difference between czech exports and german pilsners vs the real deal in the czech republic was pretty dramatic. I've never been a pilsner fan, except when in cz.

Artillery in Augsburg...M110A1 8" SPH. Been to Prague a number of times. Budweis too.

 

[ESBrewer]

I don't believe at all that the beer would be spoiled while it is being transported over the ocean. Yes, this was the case when sailing ships carried beer from GB to India. But the more stable modern beers in cargo ships and controlled conditions...no way.

Confirmation bias and other psychological reasons are more likely. I assume that you didn't have that much beer tasting experience in the 80s and it was somewhat exotic to travel to Europe. If you were having good time in Germany and you were told that they make some very nice beers, then the beer would leave its own imprint in the memory. Maybe you had good company while drinking or the surroundings were memorable. After 30 years of drinking and aging, you are more experienced and you have found some new beers and styles that you like. The same old labels won't be so great anymore, especially when you drink at home. But the memories from the past are strong and they keep getting even stronger when you memorize the good old times in Germany. I have noticed exactly the same thing in just about ten years with several wines and beers.

It is true that some exceptional beers are still brewed in Europe, in part because the traditional recipes and methods were refined over centuries and thus, those are hard to beat. There is a lot of legislation that aims to protect the traditional production methods, too, so it is difficult to make shortcuts to cut the brewing costs - you could lose your rights to use a certain label. The beers that are not controlled so strictly could also change over the years and it is probably true that some beers of the 80s have indeed evolved (sometimes in an unfavourable way) and the taste is different.

I don't know that much about the licenced production, but it could be that some different, local ingredients or adjuncts are used in the states when Heineken is brewed? Or it coud be the fact that you were having a vacation and a good time while drinking in Amsterdam and everything was tasting sligthly better..

 

[MaxStout]

I don't believe at all that the beer would be spoiled while it is being transported over the ocean. Yes, this was the case when sailing ships carried beer from GB to India. But the more stable modern beers in cargo ships and controlled conditions...no way.

Confirmation bias and other psychological reasons are more likely. I assume that you didn't have that much beer tasting experience in the 80s and it was somewhat exotic to travel to Europe. If you were having good time in Germany and you were told that they make some very nice beers, then the beer would leave its own imprint in the memory. Maybe you had good company while drinking or the surroundings were memorable. After 30 years of drinking and aging, you are more experienced and you have found some new beers and styles that you like. The same old labels won't be so great anymore, especially when you drink at home. But the memories from the past are strong and they keep getting even stronger when you memorize the good old times in Germany. I have noticed exactly the same thing in just about ten years with several wines and beers.

It is true that some exceptional beers are still brewed in Europe, in part because the traditional recipes and methods were refined over centuries and thus, those are hard to beat. There is a lot of legislation that aims to protect the traditional production methods, too, so it is difficult to make shortcuts to cut the brewing costs - you could lose your rights to use a certain label. The beers that are not controlled so strictly could also change over the years and it is probably true that some beers of the 80s have indeed evolved (sometimes in an unfavourable way) and the taste is different.

I don't know that much about the licenced production, but it could be that some different, local ingredients or adjuncts are used in the states when Heineken is brewed? Or it coud be the fact that you were having a vacation and a good time while drinking in Amsterdam and everything was tasting sligthly better..

The problem might be aggravated by what happens after it's shipped. I've seen plenty of liquor stores where the beer coolers are lit up with fluorescent lights. Those imports in green or clear bottles allow a lot of near-UV to pass. And the stock doesn't always rotate very fast, especially in some smaller stores.

The point about maturing tastes and old faves not being the same often rings true. Back in the '80s, I thought Sam Adams was the greatest. Now it's just ok. The only time I buy it these days is in a restaurant where that's the most "craft-like" beer offered and everything else is BMC.

 

[ESBrewer]

Yes, and storage could take much longer than the transport itself (depending on the companies and supply chain) and could make a difference. Same thing with malts and stuff that have quite limited lifespan and requires controlled conditions, but may end up in the back room of an LHBS for an extended period of time and is often sold in small quantitities without any sign of production date (well at least here). Beer cans luckily contain best before or production dates, but they still need decent conditions during long term storage.

 

[shelly_belly]

The answer is obvious.

 

[BruceH]

I don't believe at all that the beer would be spoiled while it is being transported over the ocean. Yes, this was the case when sailing ships carried beer from GB to India. But the more stable modern beers in cargo ships and controlled conditions...no way.

Confirmation bias and other psychological reasons are more likely. I assume that you didn't have that much beer tasting experience in the 80s and it was somewhat exotic to travel to Europe. If you were having good time in Germany and you were told that they make some very nice beers, then the beer would leave its own imprint in the memory. Maybe you had good company while drinking or the surroundings were memorable. After 30 years of drinking and aging, you are more experienced and you have found some new beers and styles that you like. The same old labels won't be so great anymore, especially when you drink at home. But the memories from the past are strong and they keep getting even stronger when you memorize the good old times in Germany. I have noticed exactly the same thing in just about ten years with several wines and beers.

It is true that some exceptional beers are still brewed in Europe, in part because the traditional recipes and methods were refined over centuries and thus, those are hard to beat. There is a lot of legislation that aims to protect the traditional production methods, too, so it is difficult to make shortcuts to cut the brewing costs - you could lose your rights to use a certain label. The beers that are not controlled so strictly could also change over the years and it is probably true that some beers of the 80s have indeed evolved (sometimes in an unfavourable way) and the taste is different.

I don't know that much about the licenced production, but it could be that some different, local ingredients or adjuncts are used in the states when Heineken is brewed? Or it coud be the fact that you were having a vacation and a good time while drinking in Amsterdam and everything was tasting sligthly better..

Prior to going back to Europe last summer I hadn't given the taste much thought but when over there I noticed how much better it tasted and confirmed after returning.

The most noticeable difference and biggest disappointment was the Kronenbourg 1664. It was a totally different beer than what I had in France.

I'm just wondering how many others have also noticed it. And yes, I'm open to the thought that it could be due to circumstances (at least partly). Drinking a tap Heineken outdoors on a nice summer evening in Amsterdam is probably going to affect how I perceive the beer.

The problem might be aggravated by what happens after it's shipped. I've seen plenty of liquor stores where the beer coolers are lit up with fluorescent lights. Those imports in green or clear bottles allow a lot of near-UV to pass. And the stock doesn't always rotate very fast, especially in some smaller stores.

The point about maturing tastes and old faves not being the same often rings true. Back in the '80s, I thought Sam Adams was the greatest. Now it's just ok. The only time I buy it these days is in a restaurant where that's the most "craft-like" beer offered and everything else is BMC.

I think Sam Adams did change!

 

[GregsB]

Hi,

I was stationed in Germany from 86 to 88. The local premium beer was Bitburger and the local house beer was usually Kirn Pils.

I was stationed in Mannheim Germany from 86-88 as well. Our local beer was Eichbaum. Beer was great locally. I had heard the water used to make eichbaum traveled beneath a cemetery.

 

[Yooper]

Artillery in Augsburg...M110A1 8" SPH. Been to Prague a number of times. Budweis too.

I was stationed in Mannheim Germany from 86-88 as well. Our local beer was Eichbaum. Beer was great locally. I had heard the water used to make eichbaum traveled beneath a cemetery.

I was in Germany in the early 80s. I was in Frankfurt. I loved it- everything about it- but most especially the pilsner at the local gasthaus. I think the local was "Henninger" but I could be wrong.

I'm going to Germany in July, but in Bamberg and Munich this time and Plzn and Prague. It will be nearly 35 years between visits, so I doubt that I'll remember the differences in nuances between the beers.

 

[SanPancho]

Confirmation bias is definitely a possibility, but i can say for a fact my recent experience was in agreement with OP.

I went to berlin for work, had a little free time but no partying or real fun times. Spent a bit over a week in lot of towns around the city and the river. Tons of beers in a ton of random places for lunch, waiting between meetings, dinner, waiting for train, etc.

Got back home and buddys birthday was at ...... a big german restaurant and beer hall.

Beer brands i had here didn’t match what i had there. Hofbrau haus was the most similar, which i thought was bit odd.

 

[BruceH]

I was in Germany in the early 80s. I was in Frankfurt. I loved it- everything about it- but most especially the pilsner at the local gasthaus. I think the local was "Henninger" but I could be wrong.

I'm going to Germany in July, but in Bamberg and Munich this time and Plzn and Prague. It will be nearly 35 years between visits, so I doubt that I'll remember the differences in nuances between the beers.

Rhine Main?

I'd think anyone would be hard pressed to compare something from 30+ years ago. However, it's quite possible to compare what you have on your trip to the same thing sold over here once you get back.

That's what ruined it for me anyway, taking the trip last summer and then having the same beer once I got back.

 

[Zimm9]

I was stationed in Vogelweh in the late 90s. Unfortunately, I wasn't really interested in beer at the time so I wasted my time there! I did try a few now and then. I remember that Warsteiner and Bitburger were considered meh beers by the locals. The first beer I tried was a Parkbrau Pirminator that I drank while I studied for an exam. No idea how I scored so well on that test.