Anyone tried keg Conditioning ?

[ba-brewer]

And the keg beer will oxidize from tank co2, and its a reaction that occurs on the order of days, not weeks. If you like draining a keg every few days then be my guest.

how do you serve your beer?

 

[schematix]

how do you serve your beer?

Bottle CO2.

The idea is to carbonate naturally so the oxygen levels go to near 0 in the keg. This gives the beer substantial self life. For example I just tapped a Bock I made 8 months ago and it was every bit as fresh as it was at a month old. I've also had great experience with mega hoppy IPAs that were still pure clean tasting hop juice at 6 months even. This compares to my IPAs from when i force carbed where basically all the hoppiness was gone at 3-4 weeks.

If you use tank CO2 to carbonate, by the time its carbonated and you serve it, it's been oxidized.

The bottle CO2 still exposes it to oxygen, but significantly less than if force carbonated. Not to mention you get the benefit of the yeast scavenging the O2 so even though you do add some, it's not enough to spoil it.

 

[oceanic_brew]

Bottle CO2.



The idea is to carbonate naturally so the oxygen levels go to near 0 in the keg. This gives the beer substantial self life. For example I just tapped a Bock I made 8 months ago and it was every bit as fresh as it was at a month old. I've also had great experience with mega hoppy IPAs that were still pure clean tasting hop juice at 6 months even. This compares to my IPAs from when i force carbed where basically all the hoppiness was gone at 3-4 weeks.



If you use tank CO2 to carbonate, by the time its carbonated and you serve it, it's been oxidized.



The bottle CO2 still exposes it to oxygen, but significantly less than if force carbonated. Not to mention you get the benefit of the yeast scavenging the O2 so even though you do add some, it's not enough to spoil it.

This is very interesting. I had no idea tank co2 contained o2.

People have a very misguided idea of how oxygenation works most importantly how fast it happens. For example since I've been purging headspace of my blueberry wines after racking and doing closed transfers the wine retains its berry flavor longer however everything always points to a specific flavor developing from the oxygenation rather than what I'm noticing.

If you read about oxygenation of beer most people point to the sherry and cardboard flavors that develop but I think it's more than that, I've noticed degradation of flavor in oxidized beer within weeks with hoppy beers it's days.

I've been exclusively making Belgians for about a year now. I'm definitely going to consider doing the water replace purge of the keg, then naturally carbonate with priming sugar.

 

[schematix]

You are correct - it's not just a single flavor that just shows up, certain flavors also disappear. The flavors that come and go also vary by malt type and hopping.

 

[k1ngl1ves]

2 reasons:


2. Tank CO2 is about 99.9% pure. There's enough oxygen in the CO2 to degrade an entire keg when force carbed.

This interests me...

In your example, most co2 tanks are somewhere around 99.9% pure... only 0.1% of other gasses.

Oxygen in the atmosphere averages 21%.


So 0.001 x .21 = 0.00021 or 0.021% of oxygen contained in the co2 tank.

I thought I remembered reading somewhere on hbt that you'd want to be under 0.04% to eliminate the effects of oxidation? 0.021% would be way under that amount.



Also...

 

[couchsending]

I have done three test batches so far where I split a 6g batch into 2 3 gallon kegs and one I carbed low and slow while the other naturally conditioned/carbed. I will probably never force carb another beer. I've done it with sugar and additional dry yeast as well as wort plus dry yeast. Next round I'm going to do a pseudo krausen with wort I pulled before fermentation and a little dry yeast, just to see if I can cut a few days off the timeline by adding already active yeast. Personally I think it makes a huge difference in not only head retention but also in rounding out the profile of the beer. Everything seems to come together much better with no sharp edges.

Does anyone else think you actually might be able to go with higher carb levels as the carbonation seems to be much smoother?

 

[NSMikeD]

This interests me...

In your example, most co2 tanks are somewhere around 99.9% pure... only 0.1% of other gasses.

Oxygen in the atmosphere averages 21%.


So 0.001 x .21 = 0.00021 or 0.021% of oxygen contained in the co2 tank.

I thought I remembered reading somewhere on hbt that you'd want to be under 0.04% to eliminate the effects of oxidation? 0.021% would be way under that amount.



Also...

I am so lucky, my palette is not sensitive enough to detect the oxidation that occurs from purging with CO2.

While I appreciate chasing the theoretical ideal conditions for making beer, very so often I come across a great beer/style that has done everything wrong.

At the end of the day, happiness is a function of haves and wants. For me, 0.00021% is well within my level of acceptable given the ease of at which I can achieve it.

 

[ba-brewer]

Bottle CO2.

The idea is to carbonate naturally so the oxygen levels go to near 0 in the keg. This gives the beer substantial self life. For example I just tapped a Bock I made 8 months ago and it was every bit as fresh as it was at a month old. I've also had great experience with mega hoppy IPAs that were still pure clean tasting hop juice at 6 months even. This compares to my IPAs from when i force carbed where basically all the hoppiness was gone at 3-4 weeks.

If you use tank CO2 to carbonate, by the time its carbonated and you serve it, it's been oxidized.

The bottle CO2 still exposes it to oxygen, but significantly less than if force carbonated. Not to mention you get the benefit of the yeast scavenging the O2 so even though you do add some, it's not enough to spoil it.

Thanks for explaining.

So is the thought that once the carbonation is done and the beer is saturated with CO2 that having oxygen in the head space while serving is not a problem any more because the beer is already saturated and less will be absorbed?

 

[k1ngl1ves]

Thanks for explaining.

So is the thought that once the carbonation is done and the beer is saturated with CO2 that having oxygen in the head space while serving is not a problem any more because the beer is already saturated and less will be absorbed?

No. Carbonated beer most definitely can oxidize.

 

[Jim311]

There are some real bean counters in this hobby. I purge my kegs a few times and call it a day. There are extreme diminishing returns after you've purged 7 or 8 times. If you want to split hairs over the .0000002 percent oxygen in your keg then by all means closed transfer into purged kegs, or purge your kegs 2000 times if you wish. Maybe you can even figure out how to brew in a complete vacuum.

 

[schematix]

There are some real bean counters in this hobby.

Lot of neck beards too. Are you implying that people who have math skills can also apply those skills to brewing?

There are extreme diminishing returns after you've purged 7 or 8 times.

Not true. Reality is far more complex than you've mistakenly simplified it to.

It's your beer and you are perfectly within your right to ferment in a bucket, leave it on the cake for a month, rack it into a keg with the lid wide open, force carbonate it from a tank, and think whatever you want about your creation.

But the reality is if you do even a single one of the above items you're going to get oxidized beer. Is it going to be bad beer? Probably not undrinkable. But it is going to be oxidized and it will be different than a non-oxidized beer.

If you want to split hairs over the .0000002 percent oxygen in your keg then by all means closed transfer into purged kegs, or purge your kegs 2000 times if you wish. Maybe you can even figure out how to brew in a complete vacuum.

Well now you're just making shiat up to argue. Purging 2000 times is a waste. All you need is a single water purge cycle. The idea is REALLY simple: you fill the keg completely full of water to displace all atmospheric air, then back fill it with CO2 from a tank to push the water out. Incredibly simple, fast and WAY more efficient use of CO2. Probably even less than 7-8 purges at 30 psi.

 

[fatherdan]

There are some real bean counters in this hobby. I purge my kegs a few times and call it a day. There are extreme diminishing returns after you've purged 7 or 8 times. If you want to split hairs over the .0000002 percent oxygen in your keg then by all means closed transfer into purged kegs, or purge your kegs 2000 times if you wish. Maybe you can even figure out how to brew in a complete vacuum.

Seems someone shows up in every thread about how great their methods are.....

bucket/keg/force carb/drink and enjoy.

 

[theQ]

... Well now you're just making shiat up to argue. Purging 2000 times is a waste. All you need is a single water purge cycle. The idea is REALLY simple: you fill the keg completely full of water to displace all atmospheric air, then back fill it with CO2 from a tank to push the water out. Incredibly simple, fast and WAY more efficient use of CO2. Probably even less than 7-8 purges at 30 psi.

Oxygen Police is right back at it.

In really I do appreciate very much that you try to teach us how to reduce the oxidation but I think it could have been done in a much gentle way especially for not providing proof. Judging just by (your) taste pallet without a proper blind tasting sampling procedure is not good enough.

I believe in measurement and I see no empirical proof the oxidation besides you stating it. How are the big breweries can/bottle their beers. How do the the serve them. Is caning and bottling done in a vaccum room ?

It makes sense if keg conditioning that the yeast will any oxygen left in the headspace but still can believe that force carbonation leads to oxidation that fast.

Cheer to all that read and/or contributed to this thread!

 

[ba-brewer]

This is the latest purge table doug293cz created, looks like 13 purges at 30psi to get down to commercial levels.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showpost.php?p=8071466&postcount=4

edit: not trying to stir the bucket, just providing the link as misquoted the number of purges required earlier.

 

[schematix]

Oxygen Police is right back at it.

In really I do appreciate very much that you try to teach us how to reduce the oxidation but I think it could have been done in a much gentle way especially for not providing proof. Judging just by (your) taste pallet without a proper blind tasting sampling procedure is not good enough.

OK then stop reading now because you won't believe what i'm about to tell you.

I believe in measurement and I see no empirical proof the oxidation besides you stating it. How are the big breweries can/bottle their beers. How do the the serve them. Is caning and bottling done in a vaccum room ?

Yah so this is a subject I am quite knowledgeable on and you are obviously not so much (if you knew this you wouldn't be so argumentative).

Commercial breweries go to great lengths to exclude oxygen from packaging. This is decades old technology now. A standard beer bottling line goes something like this:

1. The bottles are cleaned, usually with sodium hydroxide.
2. The bottles are rinsed with deoxygenated water (typical modern breweries have a special pipes all over for DO water lines)
3. The bottle is vacuumed purged.
4. The bottles is CO2 flushed.
5. The bottle is vacuumed purged.
6. The bottles is CO2 flushed.
7. The bottle is vacuumed purged.
8. The bottles is CO2 flushed.
9. The bottle is filled from the bottom up.
10. A micro thin stream of hot deoxygenated water is sprayed into the bottle.
11. CO2 rapidly starts to escape and the beer foams up over the edges.
12. A cap is placed on the bottle.
13. The bottle is passed to the capper and it's capped.

Steps 10-13 happen within about 2 seconds. A cap is placed onto foamed beer a split second after its filled. There's a reason why it's done this way. It's not an accident.

Typically the bottle continues on to be labeled (unless its a painted bottle), pasteurized, cooled, dried, packed into cases, palatalized and sent to a warehouse, before its sent to distribution, and then usually another series of warehouses before it ends up in a retailers back room, where it might not even see refridgeration again until you buy it and take it home.

I'll throw in another tidbit too since as a bonus if you read this far. Did you know modern beer fillers have a DO meter installed right in the filler bowl? If the DO meter reads over a threshold - get this - it will stop the filler, and send all that beer to the drain. That's money down the drain but they do that because oxygenated beer doesn't taste as good as non-oxygenated beer.

 

[schematix]

This is the latest purge table doug293cz created, looks like 13 purges at 30psi to get down to commercial levels.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showpost.php?p=8071466&postcount=4

edit: not trying to stir the bucket, just providing the link as misquoted the number of purges required earlier.

Thanks for posting the exact link. I couldn't dig it up either even though i remembered who authored it.

 

[theQ]

OK then stop reading now because you won't believe what i'm about to tell you.




Yah so this is a subject I am quite knowledgeable on and you are obviously not so much (if you knew this you wouldn't be so argumentative).

Commercial breweries go to great lengths to exclude oxygen from packaging. This is decades old technology now. A standard beer bottling line goes something like this:

1. The bottles are cleaned, usually with sodium hydroxide.
2. The bottles are rinsed with deoxygenated water (typical modern breweries have a special pipes all over for DO water lines)
3. The bottle is vacuumed purged.
4. The bottles is CO2 flushed.
5. The bottle is vacuumed purged.
6. The bottles is CO2 flushed.
7. The bottle is vacuumed purged.
8. The bottles is CO2 flushed.
9. The bottle is filled from the bottom up.
10. A micro thin stream of hot deoxygenated water is sprayed into the bottle.
11. CO2 rapidly starts to escape and the beer foams up over the edges.
12. A cap is placed on the bottle.
13. The bottle is passed to the capper and it's capped.

Steps 10-13 happen within about 2 seconds. A cap is placed onto foamed beer a split second after its filled. There's a reason why it's done this way. It's not an accident.

Typically the bottle continues on to be labeled (unless its a painted bottle), pasteurized, cooled, dried, packed into cases, palatalized and sent to a warehouse, before its sent to distribution, and then usually another series of warehouses before it ends up in a retailers back room, where it might not even see refridgeration again until you buy it and take it home.

I'll throw in another tidbit too since as a bonus if you read this far. Did you know modern beer fillers have a DO meter installed right in the filler bowl? If the DO meter reads over a threshold - get this - it will stop the filler, and send all that beer to the drain. That's money down the drain but they do that because oxygenated beer doesn't taste as good as non-oxygenated beer.

That is informative and is something you could have posted few pages back into this thread! I guess you enjoy telling us how wrong we are, be honest you do!

 

[schematix]

That is informative and is something you could have posted few pages back into this thread! I guess you enjoy telling us how wrong we are, be honest you do!

I don't give a crap about being right or telling people they are wrong. I do care about people spreading disinformation though (whether they know it or not). It does a disservice to the community as a whole. I do care about home brewing and I like it when people get excited about the hobby and make really great beer at home.

For the record, i brewed using standard home brewing processes (think How To Brew) for about 5 years and I made a lot of really decent beer that I loved drinking. But all along I knew there was something different about home brew vs commercial and I couldn't quite put my finger on it exactly. About the time i started to learn about oxidation, the low oxygen thing (LODO as it was called) popped up and i figured i'd give it a try since it wasn't really a big change for me. I will say the results are so obviously different that i could give a crap about a triangle test. It's night and day when you achieve the low oxygen thresholds. It's not trivial, but when you get it, you know it.

You don't have to believe me or do anything i suggest, i'm just telling you from my experience what a difference it has made, and it's been so significant that I don't see any value in "proving" it to anyone. You can either be interested in it, or not, and it doesn't affect me. Just don't start spouting off about how oxidation isn't real because the entire beer industry knows its real and spends a crap ton of money to prevent it. Businesses don't spend money trying to prevent boogeymen.

 

[stpug]

I am tired of bottling and I keg. However there is, to my taste pallet, a big difference on bottle conditioning belgians and saisons. So I thought I about trying to keg condition after priming with the right amount of sugar.

Anyone tried this, any shortcomings ? I'd love to hear your story!

The "big difference in bottle conditioning belgians and saisons" that your taste palate picks up on is the lack of oxidative byproducts. To put more simply, that great taste you get from quality bottle conditioned beers is due to a lack of oxidative reactions because the beer makers care enough about their end product to ensure a quality product goes out in such a way that it has increased shelf stability - and this even begins well before you ever mash-in. Everything schematix has said, or alluded to, is true and accurate. If you would like to know more then visit lowoxygenbrewing.com and begin reading through the blog posts and forum.

I recognize that this type of knowledge opens a proverbial "Pandora's box" that may not be worth opening for everyone. There is no real harm done by choosing not to continue learning about brewing processes and methodology. Your beer will still be as good as it's always been.

Edit: BTW, schematix wasn't always keen on the whole "LODO" thing - somewhat the opposite from what I recall (as was I and a host of other low oxygen brewers) - but, as he mentioned above, when you get it, you know it.

 

[stpug]

I failed to finish my post by tying back to the original question about keg conditioning before submitting the post. My apologies....

I spund to keg whenever it's possible and feasible. That just means racking from fermenter to keg with enough residual extract points left to fully carbonate my keg without overcarbing. A spunding apparatus is helpful for this method, but not essential.

On those occasions that I don't spund, then I keg condition. I actually prime my fermenter with the priming solution about 1-2 hours prior to racking; depending on how long your fermenter has been sitting at FG. After the 1-2 hours, you'll typically see some signs of activity again (positive fermenter pressure, bubbles on surface of beer, etc.) and this is the optimal time to rack to a well purged keg. The reasoning for this method is to re-invigorate the yeast with minimal oxygen introduction, and when the yeast has become highly active again it's a great time to rack to keg as the yeast will quickly scavenge oxygen throughout the process before it has time to react with hops, malts, alcohol, etc. Yeast and bacteria are extremely effective at scavenging oxygen when they are highly active.

Previous to using either of these methods, I did just like most homebrewers who keg - rack and force carb with canned co2. My beer was good and I won some awards in comps with this method. The biggest downside to this method was how long my kegged beer remained at it's most prime condition. I would have about 1 solid week of "perfect" beer that was preceded by "young beer" and followed by beer that was losing it's "prime qualities". Since moving to the aforementioned methods, that duration of prime has gone up significantly with spunding lasting even longer than fermenter priming.

....but I'm just one guy, and I'm not even part of the majority so take my input with plenty of salt.

Edit: the downsides of spunding is the potential for hazy/cloudy beer pours for a while if you don't cold condition for a few weeks. The fermenter priming method still suffers a some from hazy pours, but to a much lesser extent. Some modifications can be made to reduce this issue (cut dip tubes, clear draught system, etc), but I haven't personally found the need to get into those mods.

 

[theQ]

Few questions @stpug

1. if I add the priming to the primary and still has yeast cake would be hard not to leave some of that sugar behind, or do you stir it all up to distribute it evenly (I do use a simple syrup like primer)
2. if leave residual extract points and add priming sugar and let it start the fermentation controlling CO2 volume would be difficult estimate.
3. sorry for sounding ignorant, what is a spunding apparatus.

I am planning to
- make my syrop, add it to the corny keg
- transfer all the beer from primary using co2
- close the corny keg and flush it few times (not 12 times)

Wait till carbonates, chill it and serve it!

 

[bleme]

A spunding apparatus is sort of like your CO2 regulator. You hook it up to your gas post, set it to whatever PSI you want, and it will release pressure when it gets any higher than that.

People use it to ferment under pressure so it carbonates itself instead of adding priming sugar. Priming adds about 3 points of gravity, so if your target FG is 1.008, you would need to transfer it before it hits 1.011. Some people do the whole fermentation using a spunding apparatus instead of an airlock though.

 

[schematix]

You can add priming sugar and spund as well.

 

[stpug]

Few questions @stpug

1. if I add the priming to the primary and still has yeast cake would be hard not to leave some of that sugar behind, or do you stir it all up to distribute it evenly (I do use a simple syrup like primer)
2. if leave residual extract points and add priming sugar and let it start the fermentation controlling CO2 volume would be difficult estimate.
3. sorry for sounding ignorant, what is a spunding apparatus.

I am planning to
- make my syrop, add it to the corny keg
- transfer all the beer from primary using co2
- close the corny keg and flush it few times (not 12 times)

Wait till carbonates, chill it and serve it!

1) I also do a simple syrup primer. I make enough to carbonate my fermenter volume to the desired level, and then I transfer whatever volume fits in my keg leaving some amount behind in the fermenter. I feel like the re-invigorating yeast causes the priming solution to mix around over the next hour or two. Since I'm effectively priming the fermenter volume then any priming left behind is unneeded in the keg to get me to my desired carb level. I aim to not stir the beer to avoid dissolving additional oxygen at that time - you could very gently and slowly stir it a small amount and it probably wouldn't make much difference.

2) Yes, having residual extract PLUS priming sugar would be hard to guesstimate, however with a spunding device it wouldn't matter since any amount of carbonation beyond a certain level would be vented to the atmosphere anyway. That's the benefit of such a device. Without one, you would be better to pick one or the other; on the other hand, you could make sure to undershoot carbonation and just let your co2 tank finish carbing to the desired level. There is potential for loss of "lifetime" on the beer, and even some muted malt/hop flavors, but would be better than an entire keg of overcarbed beer, IMO.

3) Like described above, it's a gas disconnect with pressure relief valve (and maybe a guage to see pressure) that vents excess carbonation beyond a desired pressure that you set.

I think your plan sounds reasonable. I say do it and see how you like it. If you like the results then maybe next time try priming the fermenter and then simply racking to keg - if you want, that is.

Edit: This is how I've built mine, but it requires first calibrating them before affixing to my keg. If you include a guage on the device then you can calibrate on-the-fly as needed.

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

I know people get worked up about oxidized beer and I know it's a real issue. That being said, I don't think going to extremes is necessary for excellent beer. I don't do a water purge of my kegs, but I do purge them with CO2 prior to filling. I use CO2 to start a siphon of my beer into the liquid out port of my sanke kegs to fill them. I then force carb them using tank gas.

Much of this clearly exposes the beer to O2 to some degree. There are probably people out there who could taste it. I cannot. My friends (super hard core craft beer drinkers who actively trade, attend fests, and go on beer-cations) cannot taste it. They think my beer is excellent and think I need to open a brewery.

I entered a two week old NEIPA that I filled from the keg with my home made counter pressure filler into a competition. I scored a 40.

I suspect that, like some people who are sensitive to myrcene, there are people who are sensitive to oxidation to the point where extremely small levels affect them. It's the only way I can explain the extremes I see people go to to eliminate any/all traces of O2.

I have not had a keg last longer than 4 weeks, but I have no issues with oxidation and I brew mostly NEIPAs, which are notoriously sensitive to oxidation.

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

OK then stop reading now because you won't believe what i'm about to tell you.




Yah so this is a subject I am quite knowledgeable on and you are obviously not so much (if you knew this you wouldn't be so argumentative).

Commercial breweries go to great lengths to exclude oxygen from packaging. This is decades old technology now. A standard beer bottling line goes something like this:

1. The bottles are cleaned, usually with sodium hydroxide.
2. The bottles are rinsed with deoxygenated water (typical modern breweries have a special pipes all over for DO water lines)
3. The bottle is vacuumed purged.
4. The bottles is CO2 flushed.
5. The bottle is vacuumed purged.
6. The bottles is CO2 flushed.
7. The bottle is vacuumed purged.
8. The bottles is CO2 flushed.
9. The bottle is filled from the bottom up.
10. A micro thin stream of hot deoxygenated water is sprayed into the bottle.
11. CO2 rapidly starts to escape and the beer foams up over the edges.
12. A cap is placed on the bottle.
13. The bottle is passed to the capper and it's capped.

Steps 10-13 happen within about 2 seconds. A cap is placed onto foamed beer a split second after its filled. There's a reason why it's done this way. It's not an accident.

Typically the bottle continues on to be labeled (unless its a painted bottle), pasteurized, cooled, dried, packed into cases, palatalized and sent to a warehouse, before its sent to distribution, and then usually another series of warehouses before it ends up in a retailers back room, where it might not even see refridgeration again until you buy it and take it home.

I'll throw in another tidbit too since as a bonus if you read this far. Did you know modern beer fillers have a DO meter installed right in the filler bowl? If the DO meter reads over a threshold - get this - it will stop the filler, and send all that beer to the drain. That's money down the drain but they do that because oxygenated beer doesn't taste as good as non-oxygenated beer.

When and how is the beer carbonated?

 

[schematix]

When and how is the beer carbonated?

There are a few variations on this but for lagers they are typically carbonated naturally in secondary fermentation (lagering tanks).

If they are being bottle conditioned you'd have a stream of the priming solution and fresh yeast being blended inline with the beer going into the bottle.