Anyone stay on extract brewing?

[htims05]

I’m just getting started (will be brewing my first batch next week) and I’ve been doing a lot of reading.

That reading made me wonder how many people just stick with extract brewing and don’t graduate to all grain and if so why?

 

[Immocles]

The interest to move to all grain was almost immediate for me, especially after researching the stovetop biab process. I didn’t need a ton of gear, most of what I use was included in my extract starter kit. I made a lot of small batch extract recipes and was very pleased with the results. If I’d have had to invest more than what it cost to buy a wilser bag, I’m not sure I’d have made the jump. I doubt I’ll ever completely quit brewing extract, though, to be honest. It’s simpler, quicker, and takes up a much smaller footprint. A nice quick pale ale or sale priced kit? I’ll take that action once in awhile.

 

[Dave Sarber]

I go both ways. I like extract kits for simplicity and speed. I like all grain for more latitude. I mainly use extract kits now to try out different styles. When I find something I like, I will develop an all grain recipe along those lines, but with malt and hop changes to my taste.

 

[mongoose33]

I'm in a local hombrew club; I'd say about half the members do extract, and they seem to be happy doing it (though sometimes their beers aren't as good as they think they are). They typically buy kits from the LHBS, and that's their present position in home brewing.

My first three brews were extract, then I lucked into a cooler mash tun and refrigerator to use for ferm temp control, and that was that. A couple of times having the LHBS crush the grain, then I bought a grain mill.

You *can* make very good beer using extract, but you also may be somewhat limited in what you can do. Some of the people in my LHBC who brew with extract sometimes have extract twang in their beers, not sure why exactly. The two major culprits would seem to be stale extract or bad water.

 

[Steveruch]

I didn't stay with extracts but went back due to a major shift in my living situation (see "Last Drop July/August Zymurgy).
With the variety of extracts available, from pilsner to Munich to rye to amber to brown to the Baltic black available at Williams and using some specialty grains you can make any beer style that any all-grain brewer can make.
Be sure to use fresh extract and healthy yeast.

 

[htims05]

Good perspectives here. I’ll do a few extracts then may switch but my concern was the extra space needed.

I wasn’t sure (and guess I really won’t until I try both) if you could make just as good of a beer from extract that you can from all grain.

 

[IanJ]

After a few extract batches at the beginning, the "twang" really bugged me. Maybe it was partially ingredient quality and lack of technical brewing skills, but I've got a strong sense of smell and taste which really made it hard to keep doing extract brewing. Nothing worked as it should have, to my taste-buds.

While I love the speed of being able to crank out an extract batch, and having much less equipment in a tiny NYC apartment, making the switch to all-grain was the best thing ever, not only do the beers taste better (maybe just perception) but it's just so much more fun, albeit really challenging without space and equipment to make it easy.

I've often considered trying a few extract with steeping grains again, but at that point it seems like doing small BIAB would be just as easy, so it's persuaded me against it. Still up in the air if my future 1 gallon experimental batches should be extract-based just to make the brew day easier with a 3 month old baby taking up my time

 

[jtrux]

I used to get bad extract twang until I realized much of what I thought was twang was actually green beer. After not rushing the process, what I thought was twang aged out

 

[Qhrumphf]

"Twang" to me seems to come from either stale old extract, or excessively (like 60 mins) boiled extract (particularly with LME). I wonder if it's not some sort of oxidation/Strecker aldehyde. Using fresh extract added late it shouldn't be an issue. The problem, especially with kits, is getting fresh extraxt.

 

[davidabcd]

Extract is fast and easy. Beer is good.

 

[Steveruch]

Extract is fast and easy. Beer is good.

And you don't have to boil if you don't want to.

 

[bracconiere]

I’m just getting started (will be brewing my first batch next week) and I’ve been doing a lot of reading.

That reading made me wonder how many people just stick with extract brewing and don’t graduate to all grain and if so why?

Right on for the first brew! I personally went straight to all-grain. if i want easy brew days, i make cider.....

But i largely like all-grain for the cost savings....More work for me, less i have to pay other people to do for me....

Knock yourself out, and find out what you want to do! (my 10 gal all grain setup cost me ~$400, not including kegs, and co2 tank, etc)

 

[davidabcd]

And you don't have to boil if you don't want to.

Yeah, thanks, I saw all the no-boil info last year or whenever it hit here on HBT pretty hard. I have no reason to doubt it's the same or better than boiling for an hour. My takeaway was "always add LME late since it's already cooked." Makes good sense.

In any case, I don't mind cooking something for an hour. It is a hobby, after all, and I do enjoy it. Doing a no-boil would almost be rushing since I have my entire process tied into the one hour. Plus I only brew about 5-6 times a year. I always say I'll keep my bottles full (200+) but I haven't yet.

I have no interest in experimenting or calculating hop utilization when it's already in the extract recipes and they turn out the way I like. Yeah, I could probably boil the hops in water alone or in 10% of the fermentables or something of that nature but it's an "if it isn't broke..." proposition.

Ironically, since I don't do and probably never will try no-boil, I still mention it as an option to new brewers.

Cheers.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Good perspectives here. I’ll do a few extracts then may switch but my concern was the extra space needed.

For you first couple of batches, these may be of interest:

Tips and Tricks for Brewing Excellent Extract Beers at Home is a good resource for brewing with extract and with extract-based kits. Fresh extract, low mineral water, eliminate chlorine, ...

How To Brew, 4e is an excellent book. Chapter 1 of the book walks you through a brew day. The rest of the book can be read while one's first batch is fermenting.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

"Twang" to me seems to come from either stale old extract, or excessively (like 60 mins) boiled extract (particularly with LME). I wonder if it's not some sort of oxidation/Strecker aldehyde.

Palmer, in How To Brew, 4e offers similar ideas. Emphasis (bolded) added where Palmer offers real-word flavors to describe extract twang.

p 51 (Chapter 4: "Brewing with Beer Kits and Extracts", section: "Shopping for Extract")

The freshness of ingredients is important, particularly for LME. Fresh LME has a bit more fresh malt aroma than DME, but the latter has a better shelf life. Liquid extract typically has a maximum shelf life of about two years, depending on storage conditions; cooler is better. Liquid extract will darken and develop off-flavors like licorice, molasses, and ink aromas from Maillard reactions as it ages. Oxidation of the fatty acid compounds in old LME can cause blunt, stale, or soapy flavors. These oxidation off-flavors from old extract are collectively known as “extract twang.” Some homebrewers complain that they can’t make good beer with LME, but it’s just a matter of freshness. Check the “use by” dates on the cans (within six months is generally best), or buy from a shop that has a high turnover of stock. Dry malt extract has a better shelf life (five years) than the liquid, because the extra dehydration slows the chemical reactions. If you can’t get fresh LME, use DME.

...

An all-extract brewer will be quite satisfied brewing entirely from beer kits as long as they follow the guidelines in this book.

p 183 (chapter 12 "Brewing Strong Beers", section "Creating Higher Gravity")

One last thing--extended boiling to concentrate ten gallons of wort down to five gallons (fore example) is not a good idea either. The extended boil [more than one hour] generates a lot more Maillard products than a typical wort boil, and many of these products resemble those that are associated with extract twang.

 

[Yooper]

"Twang" to me seems to come from either stale old extract, or excessively (like 60 mins) boiled extract (particularly with LME). I wonder if it's not some sort of oxidation/Strecker aldehyde. Using fresh extract added late it shouldn't be an issue. The problem, especially with kits, is getting fresh extraxt.

Agreed. This winter, my Florida neighbors want to learn to brew. We'll make at least one extract batch. I have no idea of the water chemistry, don't want to haul a mashtun, etc. I'll use my turkey fryer and maybe a grain bag to steep some grains. I can get water from the water machine at the grocery store if I don't get info on the tap water. I'll keg and if they like the process and the beer, we'll see about getting them deeper into it.

I have had some great partial mash/extract beers in competitions. Made well, with fresh ingredients and not boiling the extract, the beer can be very very good!

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Extract is fast and easy. Beer is good.

And you don't have to boil if you don't want to.

I'm curious (and this is way off topic): do you have advice on how you create 'no-boil' recipes?

HomeBrewTalk (and your Zymurgy July 2019 recipe) are sources for existing recipes. But your Zymurgy recipe seems to ignore many of the "conventional" recipe design rules (including doing a concentrated 'boil' and using a large amount of chilled to successfully go from 170-ish to yeast pitching temperature). Starting out, was it just "trial and error"? Or experience applied in creative ways?

 

[davidabcd]

I'm curious (and this is way off topic): do you have advice on how you create 'no-boil' recipes?

It appears your questions might be for @Steveruch?

 

[Day-Day]

Extract definitely has it's advantages, quick, easy, and makes good beer that's pretty much idiot proof. If you're only brewing a few times a year and have no real desire to work harder (All grain is a lot of work) then by all means stick to extract. All grain certainly has it's advantages, it's usually much cheaper to brew all grain (extract is expensive and bulk grains are relatively cheap), and you can really dial in your recipes to your taste. Certain styles really require certain water chemistry/ph/etc. to dial in the flavor profile, which you can't do with extract because all that was done when making the extract. If you have any desire to brew IPA's, sours, etc, all grain is the way to go. With IPA's you really want to play with your water profile, sulfate to chloride ratio, ph level to get your desired flavor (everyone's will be different). With that said there is a huge learning curve when moving to all grain, your beers might actually be worse than your extract brews for a few batches until you learn/dial in water chemistry, your mash/lautering procedure, etc., etc., etc., but after learning these techniques you will have much more accuracy and flexibility in your brewing. You will not only be able to spot things in your brew that you don't like, you will be able to change them, something you often can't do with extract.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

It appears your questions might be for @Steveruch?

That was the intent (sorry for the confusion). But if you have ideas, I'm listening ...

 

[S-Met]

I'm curious (and this is way off topic): do you have advice on how you create 'no-boil' recipes?

Take a recipe or kit.
Modify water to your intended volume - no boil off
Follow instructions up until the water starts to boil, then toss your instructions.

Stir in extract, add bittering hops at flame-out and let temp drop naturally until it reaches 170° (about 30-40 min for me) then add late hops and chill. Ferment as usual.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Take a recipe or kit.
Modify water to your intended volume - no boil off
Follow instructions up until the water starts to boil, then toss your instructions.

Stir in extract, add bittering hops at flame-out and let temp drop naturally until it reaches 170° (about 30-40 min for me) [1] then add late hops and chill [2]. Ferment as usual.

Makes sense ...
[1] is essentially BBR's "Hop Sampler"
[2] converts all the aroma / flavor hops to whirlpool hops

... but this isn't the process that @steverush used in his Zymurgy July 2019 recipe.

 

[Steveruch]

I'm curious (and this is way off topic): do you have advice on how you create 'no-boil' recipes?

HomeBrewTalk (and your Zymurgy July 2019 recipe) are sources for existing recipes. But your Zymurgy recipe seems to ignore many of the "conventional" recipe design rules (including doing a concentrated 'boil' and using a large amount of chilled to successfully go from 170-ish to yeast pitching temperature). Starting out, was it just "trial and error"? Or experience applied in creative ways?

A bit of both

I'm curious (and this is way off topic): do you have advice on how you create 'no-boil' recipes?

HomeBrewTalk (and your Zymurgy July 2019 recipe) are sources for existing recipes. But your Zymurgy recipe seems to ignore many of the "conventional" recipe design rules (including doing a concentrated 'boil' and using a large amount of chilled to successfully go from 170-ish to yeast pitching temperature). Starting out, was it just "trial and error"? Or experience applied in creative ways?

I have a notebook full of all-grain recipes that I use as a starting point. step
The first step is to modify it to extract: x number of base malt gets me a certain O G on my system and it's fairly easy to figure out how much extract would give me the same.
Next step is to figure out what IBUs I want and how to get them. Bitterness can be gotten at lower than boiling temperature, but the actual number is not calculatable as far as I know. This works better on styles that are more malt forward or get their hoppiness from all late additions.

 

[S-Met]

... but this isn't the process that @steverush used in his Zymurgy July 2019 recipe.

Since I didn't read the article, I can't comment.

What I can say is this is the S-method

 

[davidabcd]

That was the intent (sorry for the confusion). But if you have ideas, I'm listening ...

Sorry, no-boil isn't in anywhere near my wheelhouse. It's an intriguing subject, in general, and for those interested in a brief brew day. I would start a thread to flush the no-boilers out who'll have all the info you're looking for; there are some very dedicated to the no-boil process.
Good luck. I'll probably follow along if you do create one, since it's another way to get good ideas.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Certain styles really require certain water chemistry/ph/etc. to dial in the flavor profile, which you can't do with extract because all that was done when making the extract.

FWIW, a couple of months back, there was a topic here on HomeBrewTalk that discussed adding brewing salts to an extract-based recipe: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/bru’n-water-for-extract-no-boil.668346/ (spoiler alert: it has a happy ending ).

 

[Day-Day]

FWIW, a couple of months back, there was a topic here on HomeBrewTalk that discussed adding brewing salts to an extract-based recipe: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/bru’n-water-for-extract-no-boil.668346/ (spoiler alert: it has a happy ending ).

Cool read, it's nice to know it can be done... I wouldn't base my brewing around it, but interesting and quite informative... thanks for sharing !!!