Anyone moved to full-time brewing?

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DaleKOB

DaleKOB

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Hello!

While I am WAAAAAAAAAAAY to green to even talk about it, I kinda want to start a small brewery. Seems to me every hobby I have I can turn it into a job somehow - Auto detailing, kickboxing, writing, and now brewing!
Has anyone out there moved from home brewing to real-live production brewing? Anyone suggest a place to start (book, site, etc)? I know a good place for me to start, and that is brew more beer and actually figure out what is going on!!!

:drunk:
 
I'd suggest doing a lot of reading and a lot of brewing. After a few years of homebrew experience, talk to some nearby breweries and see if they need help. Even if it's volunteering, it will get you some experience.

I would suggest reading a few articles at www.ibd.org.uk Look at the "Learning" tab under "learning resources". I could forward you the PDF of all the articles in one if you PM me with your email address. It was suggested to me by the admissions department at siebel. It's a lot of reading, but if you get through the whole thing, you will have learned a LOT.

Another good read would be the Practical Handbook for the Specialty Brewer series. It's expensive, but a wealth of knowledge. You can find those at www.mbaa.com

I think right now, those books will be way over your head, but after a few years of brewing experience, you should have no problem.

Good luck!
 
I have moved to working in a brewery full-time, packaging, not brewing, but I can tell you it's a hell of a lot of work and a hell of a different ballgame than homebrewing. It's not just buying a big mash tun and kettle and upping your grain bill and hop additions.

There are resources online, but mostly, I would try to get a part-time job at an operating brewpub or production brewery, and talk up the brewers and employees every so often. It's not a cakewalk, and they'll tell you so. It's HARD work for little to no appreciation and laughable income. Unless your name is Pabst, Coors, or Busch, no one ever got rich starting a brewery.

Also, until you can brew the same homebrew recipe about ten times in a row without it tasting any different, there's no way you can appreciate the consistency standards that production breweries have to meet. Brewpubs have a little more wiggle room, or they only brew a beer once, but in production, consistency is king.

Sorry if this post is a little depressing (or sobering...ha!), but it's the truth everyone needs to hear sometime. If you're motivated enough, go get 'em!
 
Hehehe! I was waiting for the reality-check response! Thanks for that! The truth is, in ANY business that anyone is interested to get into, there will be people on both sides saying 'no its really tough, blah blah blah' and then the opposite side 'come on in, the water is warm!' When I got into Executive Recruiting years ago, I heard both sides then. And now 8 years later I have been one of the companies top performers for the past 3 years! But...will lightning strike 2x in 2 different industries?! Hard to say, but for now I will keep the laundry room brewery in full swing and try to figure out what the heck I am doing!
THanks again for the great info (and the reality check!)! you guys are a-ok in my book!

Dale

BTW, is Rusty Truck Brewery a production brewery?
 
DaleKOB said:
BTW, is Rusty Truck Brewery a production brewery?
Click to expand...

I run a 1/2bbl system out of my garage. So no, not a production brewery like you'd think. I produce enough to sell to my family and friends and their friends.

A trick I learned... if you sell them the bottles and "gift" them the beer in the bottles, you don't need a liquor license. Haha. Plans are in the works for a full scale brewpub though, so I'm hoping to get that sorted through within the next few years.
 
That is awesome! Good loophole! Is a brewpub the easier route to take as opposed to making and distributing?
 
Well, yes and no. When you bottle and distribute, you have to deal with a middleman, it's not like you can just sell it directly to the bars or liquor stores yourself. So, you have a lot more headaches to deal with there. It's more licensing too. Selling beer to people in a pub and not allowing them to take it with them is a bit cheaper. Also, in my opinion, it's the easiest way to control the quality of your products. When you rely on a distributor to put your products in stores, you put your lifeblood into their hands. If they don't control temps, or don't rotate stock when needed, you could be selling beer to customers that's subpar.

I'd rather have everything in my control to begin with.
 
Great! Good stuff here!

How about Cedar Rose Brewing? Production brewery or Production Brewery in the making?
 
Suthrncomfrt1884 said:
Well, yes and no. When you bottle and distribute, you have to deal with a middleman, it's not like you can just sell it directly to the bars or liquor stores yourself.
Click to expand...

Except in a self-distribution state (like Wisconsin). You can sell it directly to a bar or restaurant, but now you have to be the brewer and salesperson and financial officer until you get big enough to hire it out.

I read an interesting book called "Wisconsin's Best Beer Guide". It's about all of the breweries in Wisconsin; big and small. Almost every one of them started out in their basement, garage or barn. A quote from one of the brewers who started their own said, "I get a lot of people who come through the brewery on tours and want to start a brewery because they make really good beer and his reply is "That's a great first step, but the 2nd through 40th steps: are you good at carpentry, plumbing, pouring concrete, welding, and can you balance a balance sheet every 30 days?"

So yes, it can be done, but it will be a lot of hard work and with some luck and help from others you could open your own. Also, be prepared to borrow or get investors because you'll be in it for $100,000 - $500,000 (depending on where and how big you start).

Good luck. :mug:
 
Suthrncomfrt1884 said:
I run a 1/2bbl system out of my garage. So no, not a production brewery like you'd think. I produce enough to sell to my family and friends and their friends.

A trick I learned... if you sell them the bottles and "gift" them the beer in the bottles, you don't need a liquor license. Haha. Plans are in the works for a full scale brewpub though, so I'm hoping to get that sorted through within the next few years.
Click to expand...

Don't do this. Not that there is a lot of enforcement around, but this is TOTALLY ILLEGAL. It's not even close.
 
Well, it's not exactly what I'm doing. I also work for a graphic design firm that makes t-shirts. I designed a shirt for my brewery, so I sell them for $20. They get a 12 pack of beer for free with the shirt. I've thought the rule was that you could give homebrew away, just not sell it.

That's basically all I'm doing. The fact that the shirt only costs me $2 to make doesn't make a difference.
 
FWIW ....thats exactly how ticket scalping is legally done...... ticket free, cup it comes in $100...not that i condone such behavior.
 
DaleKOB said:
Hello!

While I am WAAAAAAAAAAAY to green to even talk about it, I kinda want to start a small brewery. Seems to me every hobby I have I can turn it into a job somehow - Auto detailing, kickboxing, writing, and now brewing!
Has anyone out there moved from home brewing to real-live production brewing? Anyone suggest a place to start (book, site, etc)? I know a good place for me to start, and that is brew more beer and actually figure out what is going on!!!

:drunk:
Click to expand...

To make money? Well, I was thinking of hosting classes teaching others to brew. Starting from the ground up. It would be hard to put together, but people would certainly pay (not a lot mind you) to learn how to brew - and how to brew 'properly'.
 
Pivot said:
Thats fraud dude. You cant really think thats legit... I hope anyway.
Click to expand...

How is it fraud? If I choose to give away my beer to friends but charge them for a t-shirt, it would be the same thing. I guess if people ask, then that's what I'm doing. I really don't see anything morally wrong with this at all. I'm making money for a service I provide. Do gardeners have to license themselves before they can mow your lawn? No.

A liquor license in Illinois is $500. After the costs to make the beer, I don't make a whole lot more than that.

Maybe I shouldn't be charging my friends...but when two or three of them used to go through a keg of my beer a night, it's hard to not charge them.
 
How is it fraud? If I choose to give away my beer to friends but charge them for a t-shirt, it would be the same thing. I guess if people ask, then that's what I'm doing. I really don't see anything morally wrong with this at all. I'm making money for a service I provide. Do gardeners have to license themselves before they can mow your lawn? No.
Click to expand...

People mowing your lawn aren't selling alcohol, which is a federally regulated and controlled substance. You may think it's a technical loophole but I guarantee if you were charged and brought into court you'd be in a world of trouble. The intent of the law is what matters.

It's not about morally wrong or whatever. What you are doing is illegal under US law.
 
Suthrncomfrt1884 said:
I run a 1/2bbl system out of my garage. So no, not a production brewery like you'd think. I produce enough to sell to my family and friends and their friends.

A trick I learned... if you sell them the bottles and "gift" them the beer in the bottles, you don't need a liquor license. Haha. Plans are in the works for a full scale brewpub though, so I'm hoping to get that sorted through within the next few years.
Click to expand...

Better hope the IRS and the TTB don't read this board...
 
Suthrncomfrt1884 said:
How is it fraud? If I choose to give away my beer to friends but charge them for a t-shirt, it would be the same thing. I guess if people ask, then that's what I'm doing. I really don't see anything morally wrong with this at all. I'm making money for a service I provide. Do gardeners have to license themselves before they can mow your lawn? No.

A liquor license in Illinois is $500. After the costs to make the beer, I don't make a whole lot more than that.

Maybe I shouldn't be charging my friends...but when two or three of them used to go through a keg of my beer a night, it's hard to not charge them.
Click to expand...

LOL!!! Look out Suth, all the "thats the law" Nazis are coming out to wave their walking sticks at you.
 
Waunabeer said:
Except in a self-distribution state (like Wisconsin). You can sell it directly to a bar or restaurant, but now you have to be the brewer and salesperson and financial officer until you get big enough to hire it out.
Click to expand...

This would make sense if I wasn't completely mesmerized by your avatar.
 
jjones17 said:
LOL!!! Look out Suth, all the "thats the law" Nazis are coming out to wave their walking sticks at you.
Click to expand...

Exactly what I was thinking. And like I said... I'm not selling beer. I'm giving it away to friends and family, which is technically NOT illegal if they're of legal age. I'm selling the t-shirts. The people buying my shirt just happen to like my homebrew.

By saying this, I'm doing the exact same thing most of you do. As homebrewers, we enjoy letting others appreciate the fruits of our labor. What fun would it be to brew and keep it all to yourself?
 
So, you're telling me that anyone on these boards that gives away their homebrew as gifts is doing something illegal? The fact that I also make shirts for it and sell the shirts all of a sudden says I'm breaking the law?
 
Suthrncomfrt1884 said:
So, you're telling me that anyone on these boards that gives away their homebrew as gifts is doing something illegal?
Click to expand...
That's not what people are saying. While it wouldn't surprise me if a state or two had a backwards law that giving away homebrew is illegal, that isn't what people are trying to tell you.

Suthrncomfrt1884 said:
The fact that I also make shirts for it and sell the shirts all of a sudden says I'm breaking the law?
Click to expand...

Selling shirts like here's your shirt and a free sixer, nudge nudge wink wink, isn't exactly kosher. It's a money thing. There's a lot of money that has to be paid to various government agencies if you want to brew. Do you really think that the IRS and the TTB would just say, "well, you beat us."

Realistically, the chances are you ever getting caught are slim to none unless someone rats you out? Of course, is there any kind of background checks done when getting a license? Not sure I'd want this thread popping if you really are planning on opening a brewpub ;)
 
So, after reading this forum, I just had to do a little research. Just because I DON'T want to be doing anything illegal. I found out that I can brew up to 200 gallons a year (since I have other people in the house) and I'm right around that. I'm not allowed to have a homebrew party and charge people anything to get in. BUT, I can legally give my beer away to people over 21. I guess my thoughts on the whole issue is (yes, I'm trying to find a loophole) that I'm actually selling another product. If I was to sell the t-shirt to someone and then give them some homebrew a week later, no one would ask questions. But because I'm giving it to them at the same time, it looks fishy. I don't understand that. You guys know what I'm doing because I've told you, but no one else would think twice. Eh, we'll see if it comes back to bite me in the ass someday.

On an interesting side note:

For those of you who have kids that like to help you brew, apparently it's illegal. No person under the age of 21 is even allowed to assist in the brewing process. Odd.
 
On the tax issue, you would have to pay taxes on the t-shirt sales regardless of any beer if you were going to be on the up-and-up.

There have already been cases where people tried to use your "loophole" and lost in court. e.g. throwing a homebrew party and charging for cups. You may think it's a clever loophole, but it's not clever, and it's not a loophole. Most likely you will never be charged with anything, but you could be, and if you were, you'd probably lose.
 
Suthrncomfrt1884 said:
Maybe I shouldn't be charging my friends...but when two or three of them used to go through a keg of my beer a night, it's hard to not charge them.
Click to expand...

I've never understood this.

If you didn't homebrew, what level of hospitality do you provide your guests? You don't offer them a drink?
 
In my opinion, if you plan to engage in illegal or questionable activities it's probably not good practice to share what you are doing on a public forum.

Back to the topic.

I work part time in a production brewery. I had no previous experience other than six years of homebrewing. I began at the bottom. Tasks include bottling, cleaning, racking kegs, scrubbing, disassembling and reassembling kegs, sweeping, cleaning....

As some others have mentioned, it is long hours, hard work and very little money. However, at the end of the day I am working in a craft brewery helping produce some excellent beers. I would love to be up on the brewdeck, but at this point I'll take what I can get and continue to learn, ask questions and work hard.
 
This is something I've put a lot of research into recently. Laws are different in every state, but New York has quite a few small nano-breweries popping up, like Barrier Brewing (who brew with a 1BBL Blichmann System) and Blind Bat Brewing (who started brewing 10 gallon Sabco batches and recently bought a 3BBL System).

In New York, it's easy to do because a microbrewery can legally self-distribute and circumvent the dreaded three-tier system. You'll want an automated brewing system of sorts and a temperature controlled area for fermentation and conditioning, to ensure consistency from batch to batch. And you'll need a commercial plot (most states won't license a home brewery). And about a year or more in paperwork.

It takes time/effort/money, but it's not a difficult industry to get into otherwise.
 
suthrncomfrt1884 said:
i'd suggest doing a lot of reading and a lot of brewing. After a few years of homebrew experience, talk to some nearby breweries and see if they need help. Even if it's volunteering, it will get you some experience.

I would suggest reading a few articles at www.ibd.org.uk look at the "learning" tab under "learning resources". I could forward you the pdf of all the articles in one if you pm me with your email address. It was suggested to me by the admissions department at siebel. It's a lot of reading, but if you get through the whole thing, you will have learned a lot.

Another good read would be the practical handbook for the specialty brewer series. It's expensive, but a wealth of knowledge. You can find those at www.mbaa.com

i think right now, those books will be way over your head, but after a few years of brewing experience, you should have no problem.

Good luck!
Click to expand...

great link! Thanks!
 
The tshirt and beer thing is like a hooker that charges for the condom then sleeps with you for free.

However, there needs to be a workaround for the thirsty friend scenerio. They should be able to pay for the cost of the beer. As long as no profit is made it should be all good.
 
beerisgood said:
However, there needs to be a workaround for the thirsty friend scenerio. They should be able to pay for the cost of the beer. As long as no profit is made it should be all good.
Click to expand...

Once you have made revenue (not profit) you need to file taxes. In order to file taxes, you need a business license. In order to get a business license for alcohol sales, you need a brewery license.

And here we are, back to square one. You cannot sell beer.

Look, I have thought about it as much as the next guy, but the fact of the matter is that you literally cannot sell the stuff except legitimately without taking some kind of risk legally. If you are thinking about going pro...start with the basics. Fill out the paperwork, get a very small warehouse in your town, stick your brew stand there, and start your business. The real costs don't come in until you have a full production brewery, so if 500 bucks a year and a small warehouse are going to stop you, you probably shouldn't be starting a brewery anyway. And, if you are in a non 3tier state, sell as much as you want to your friends, and even legally!
 
Suthrncomfrt1884 said:
So, after reading this forum, I just had to do a little research. Just because I DON'T want to be doing anything illegal. I found out that I can brew up to 200 gallons a year (since I have other people in the house) and I'm right around that. I'm not allowed to have a homebrew party and charge people anything to get in. BUT, I can legally give my beer away to people over 21. I guess my thoughts on the whole issue is (yes, I'm trying to find a loophole) that I'm actually selling another product. If I was to sell the t-shirt to someone and then give them some homebrew a week later, no one would ask questions. But because I'm giving it to them at the same time, it looks fishy. I don't understand that. You guys know what I'm doing because I've told you, but no one else would think twice. Eh, we'll see if it comes back to bite me in the ass someday.
Click to expand...

The ATF / IRS can ruin your life through an investigation alone. If they ever did take interest in your proposed activities, your life would be significantly altered for the worse long before you had your day in court... if you ever got to court at all.

I certainly don't have a moral problem with what you're considering, but some things might be better left unsaid on the internet.

I'd guess the chances of the feds taking interest in something like this are pretty slim, but the aforementioned agencies don't exactly have the best record for acts of understanding. It seems that the 'new & improved' pardigm in law enforcement isn't to focus resources on the most heinous crimes, but rather those that are easiest to prosecute.
 
It seems that most of my thirsty friends are getting interested in homebrewing so its becoming a non-issue.

I even offer to teach them on my equipment so they can give it a try and only have to buy the ingredients.
 
lol.... these threads always get me. I am sure you will never get in trouble for your illegal sale of your beer. Only other people get in trouble for doing illegal things.
 
If I wanted to get into illegally selling controlled substances I would go with something with a higher profit margin.
 
Okay, the legality of selling beer without a license is not under question here. I'm not denying that. I'm just thinking it's a bit rediculous that I can't require my friends to pay me at least what I payed to make it. I realize the law is law...but it's dumb. It's not like I'm selling crack, so bringing up controlled substances is a bit over the top. And it's not that I'm even trying to MAKE money off of this. It's not a business in any way.

I'm not opposed to letting my friends come over to my house and have a few beers, but it got a little nuts after awhile. They would be over every weekend, and I would go through a keg in one night. I wasn't charging at first, so it was starting to cost me a lot of money. I decided that I couldn't keep supporting my own hobby if I didn't get some compensation. That's all I'm doing. I'm not selling to the whole town.

So... another question since what I'm doing seems to be so wrong in peoples eyes... What if my friends bought the ingredients for the beer and I brewed it for them? Is that illegal? Because the way people make it seem is that I would still be breaking the law. And...if that's the case, then none of my friends will ever get beer for their birthdays or parties because I'm having to pay for everything myself. It makes no sense.
 
Suthrncomfrt1884 said:
So... another question since what I'm doing seems to be so wrong in peoples eyes... What if my friends bought the ingredients for the beer and I brewed it for them? Is that illegal? Because the way people make it seem is that I would still be breaking the law. And...if that's the case, then none of my friends will ever get beer for their birthdays or parties because I'm having to pay for everything myself. It makes no sense.
Click to expand...

You're not brewing it for them... you're brewing it WITH them. It's a group activity. Their responsibility is to provide the ingredients. That way it's legal w/o question (at least in regards to federal law).
 

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