Anyone else overwelmed by the amount of hops in IPAs and NEIPAs?

[firerat]

.... But some people are offended way too easily......

Indeed

 

[Nagorg]

plus $20-$30 worth of hops!!

This is why I started buying bulk hops a long time ago.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

This is why I started buying bulk hops a long time ago.

I do that as well, but there is only so cheap you can get 1 lb of Citra/Mosaic/etc. I have gotten some of those for $20 per lb on sale at YVH, but even there many hops are around $30 per lb. They do have some nice hops around $18 per lb (Azacca, El Dorado, Idaho 7, etc.) and using cheaper hops like Centennial, Columbus, Cascade, etc. are an option. But if I repitch harvested yeast, I can make a Saison for around $15 in ingredients.

 

[skidmark]

Excellent beer, and equally excellent suggestion of having a "calibration beer." My only concern would be that 2H is a single Centennial hop, and while I love me some Centennial, something (or some things) less prominent and specific in taste/aroma might provide a better palate to measure Lupulin Shift. The 'original' Ranger or the 'original' Stone IPA, both of which utilized several different bittering and aroma hops, would IMHO provide a better back drop.

This is an attempt at separating any biases for, or against, any particular hop, or, more importantly, perceived bitterness level.

My thought was based in the opposite -- let's all try a beer that is:

A) *reasonably* available to all,
2) Right in the middle of the accepted IBU range, and
III) Renowned for malt/hop balance (IMNSHO) -- the epitome of the Midwestern IPA.

" Hopelessly Midwestern – corn fed boys and girls,
Hopelessly Midwestern – square pegs in this big round world,
Well, you can go from seas to shining sea,
But right in the middle is the place to be
And if you like it like that, you’re a lot like me –
Hopelessly Midwestern ..."

-- by Joel Mabus (Who, if there were any justice in this world, would be a bazillionaire, and Brittany Spears would be scrubbing his floor ...)

 

[CascadesBrewer]

Regarding Two Hearted...a while back I was buying a bunch of IPAs from the local More Beer here in Virginia and Two Hearted was one of them. I had not had the beer in a while and I thought it was wonderful. Maybe a year later I was visiting family in Michigan and had a Two Hearted and it had that musty cardboard flavor I get from oxidation (it was probably on tap, so blame the bar).

I have had the same with Racer 5 bottles. Sometimes I get a bottle that is wonderful and sometimes cardboard. I ended up building an IPA recipe around info I could find on Racer 5, and I am glad the first bottles I had of that beer were in good shape. NEIPAs are a hard beer to package and I have had some really bad cans.

Here in Northern Virginia, I feel the quality of Hazies/NEIPAs has really improved over the last few years. It seems like breweries have moved back from the pure murk bombs and are making some really clean and drinkable beers. Even the breweries that just brew a hazy now and then to meet market demand tend to put out some pretty solid examples. Sometimes there is a bit of a sameness across beers...a very similar grain bill with some 3-hop combo. My girlfriend who "hates IPA" does seem to actually enjoy those murk bombs that I find rather astringent. Different strokes for different folks I guess.

 

[day_trippr]

Needs more horns
But I love the look just the same.
Wouldn't be caught dead or alive driving it, mind you, but still....

 

[Deric]

This isn't a case of cheesewhiz vs gourmet cheese though. NEIPAs have a legit place...

Are you suggesting Cheez Whiz is not "legit"?

 

[Broothru]

Regarding Two Hearted...a while back I was buying a bunch of IPAs from the local More Beer here in Virginia and Two Hearted was one of them. I had not had the beer in a while and I thought it was wonderful. Maybe a year later I was visiting family in Michigan and had a Two Hearted and it had that musty cardboard flavor I get from oxidation (it was probably on tap, so blame the bar).

I have had the same with Racer 5 bottles. Sometimes I get a bottle that is wonderful and sometimes cardboard. I ended up building an IPA recipe around info I could find on Racer 5, and I am glad the first bottles I had of that beer were in good shape. NEIPAs are a hard beer to package and I have had some really bad cans.

Here in Northern Virginia, I feel the quality of Hazies/NEIPAs has really improved over the last few years. It seems like breweries have moved back from the pure murk bombs and are making some really clean and drinkable beers. Even the breweries that just brew a hazy now and then to meet market demand tend to put out some pretty solid examples. Sometimes there is a bit of a sameness across beers...a very similar grain bill with some 3-hop combo. My girlfriend who "hates IPA" does seem to actually enjoy those murk bombs that I find rather astringent. Different strokes for different folks I guess.

Where 'bouts in Northern VA? Vanish, just outside Leesburg has good beer and a family vibe. Can get crowded on weekends though, and we haven't been there since pre- Covid. Haven't tried any hazies there.

 

[MicroMickey]

Are you suggesting Cheez Whiz is not "legit"?

My favorite - artificial beer & artificial cheese

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

You missed the point. Read the question again. Keyword: overwhelmed. As in overdoing it. As in every craft brewery trying to jump on the hype train and do it even more than the last one. Untill it's too much. How much is too much? That's the discussion here. In my opinion, We've reach that point.

FIFY

 

[Nate R]

Might I suggest Bell's Two Hearted Ale as a calibration beer for this discussion?

Well... since you brought it up...
I am on the west coast- northern california.
I just now found a 6-pack of Bell's 2 hearted (in cans no less!). Anyways... i had read about this beer here and other places a lot.
It is a great beer for sure.
However... is it a 'legend' because it is one of the originals? Like Pliny the Elder out here?
I thought it was a good beer...

 

[Nate R]

Sometimes there is a bit of a sameness across beers...a very similar grain bill with some 3-hop combo.

I agree!!
I gotta get out of this thread before it gets super heated.. but..
I will aay again: Moonraker in Auburn CA. Better then heady topper. Best NE ipa i've ever had.
However... you go there, get say 8 samples of hazy's... there is a certain sameness to them. Sure different hops. But you taste 1 after another and it gets... just... all similar.
So yeah- i agree. They use very simialr base and just mix up the hops. A great business plan for sure.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

Where 'bouts in Northern VA? Vanish, just outside Leesburg has good beer and a family vibe. Can get crowded on weekends though, and we haven't been there since pre- Covid. Haven't tried any hazies there.

I am in Sterling/Potomac Falls/Cascades. I was out at Vanish recently for the first time in a year or two. Aslin has a nice setup in Herndon with some wonderful hazies. I also like Crooked Run in Sterling, but they seem to be a love or hate kinda place. Solace is a great place if you want to pick from a dozen hazies. Ocelot has been a great IPA place since they opened.

 

[Broothru]

I am in Sterling/Potomac Falls/Cascades. I was out at Vanish recently for the first time in a year or two. Aslin has a nice setup in Herndon with some wonderful hazies. I also like Crooked Run in Sterling, but they seem to be a love or hate kinda place. Solace is a great place if you want to pick from a dozen hazies. Ocelot has been a great IPA place since they opened.

I'll have to check out Solace and try again to give Hazy beers another shot. Just never found one I liked, and never saw the attraction.

We got to within 100 miles of Alchemist 3 years ago on a road trip, but had to turn back due to a death in the extended family in Fredericksburg. Kept trying local NEIPAs. Nothing turned me on. Guess another try is called for.

 

[T Murph]

So many people seem to want to dictate what others should like. They don't like hazies, so they bitch about them and say they're defective and shouldn't be on the taps/shelves.

Fruit in beer (pastry sours for example)? Blasphemy! A lot of cane-waving "get off my lawn" types around here.

The reality is that beer, like everything else, is supply/demand driven. In the early 00's, the hop wars were about making IPA's more and more bitter. I liked IPAs then, but they got virtually undrinkable for my palate.

I like the flavor of many hops, love the aroma. NEIPAs that are well done are incredible...poorly done ones suck. That's pretty much like every other style of beer out there.

I drink the styles I like (IPAs, pale ales, belgians, imperial stouts, most classic European styles, etc. I like some sours. But regardless, I have the option to drink what I like and not drink the ones I don't. People act like they walk into a bar and it's 21 taps of hazies....maybe somewhere it's that way, but not here. It might be 5 of them, but there's always variety on tap around here.

I started brewing in the early 90's because imports were expensive and craft was nothing like today. I got back into it in 2014 because I wanted more access to NEIPAs and they were hard to come by around here. They were brewed (Toppling Goliath was good at the time), but you had to know someone to get any. I had had Treehouse and Trillium et al at that point and wanted to just brew my own.

If they come out with some new style that doesn't float my boat, I'm not going to complain, I'm just not going to buy/drink/brew it. Not sure why that's so hard....

You sound a lot like me. I like what I like and I brew what I like. If you like what I brew that's good if you don't that's ok. But I love hops, and of course I like a good IPA, key is good. So many commercial and HB versions taste like the had a large quantity of hops sitting around and wanted use them up before they went bad so they simply threw the lot in the kettle. You have to have a balance of hops to malts to be palatable. Over hopping a brew does not make it better. I'm to the point where I hesitate to sample many of the crazy named examples out there today because often times they are simply over hopped to the point of not tasting good. There are guide lines to follow and they are established for a reason.

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

You sound a lot like me. I like what I like and I brew what I like. If you like what I brew that's good if you don't that's ok. But I love hops, and of course I like a good IPA, key is good. So many commercial and HB versions taste like the had a large quantity of hops sitting around and wanted use them up before they went bad so they simply threw the lot in the kettle. You have to have a balance of hops to malts to be palatable. Over hopping a brew does not make it better. I'm to the point where I hesitate to sample many of the crazy named examples out there today because often times they are simply over hopped to the point of not tasting good. There are guide lines to follow and they are established for a reason.

I would agree up to a point. Some people *love* overhopped beers and don't want "balance". In my opinion, proper "balance" is in the palate of the person drinking the beer. There is no right answer there, only what suits any particular person.

I've had IPAs with so much hops it was like chewing on a hop pellet. If you've ever tried that (I have sampled nearly every raw ingredient I put into beer), you know it's very spicy and burns your throat. I've had beers with significant hop burn that I felt were pretty much undrinkable while another person is saying "Isn't this great"?

To each his/her own. I won't tell them they can't like that beer, I'll just acknowledge it's not my style.

 

[Broothru]

I would agree up to a point. Some people *love* overhopped beers and don't want "balance". In my opinion, proper "balance" is in the palate of the person drinking the beer. There is no right answer there, only what suits any particular person.

I've had IPAs with so much hops it was like chewing on a hop pellet. If you've ever tried that (I have sampled nearly every raw ingredient I put into beer), you know it's very spicy and burns your throat. I've had beers with significant hop burn that I felt were pretty much undrinkable while another person is saying "Isn't this great"?

To each his/her own. I won't tell them they can't like that beer, I'll just acknowledge it's not my style.

We can probably all agree that hops and hot sauce have a lot in common. A few years back the rage was how exhorbantly ridiculous a hot sauce you could consume without actually doing physical harm to your GI tract. There'd been hot sauce before and there's still hot sauce now. I'll admit to an attraction to the endorphin rush that accompanies the sensory assault of capsaicin from hot peppers or Wasabi.

The only practical difference between hops and hot sauce is the unit of measure: IBUs verses Scoville units. Each has a minimum and maximum impact on an individual's threshold of pleasure and discomfort. Different strokes for different folks, as Sly and the Family Stone posited in the 60s.

Hops have been around much longer than any of us, and they'll around long after we're all gone. Trends will come and go but hops as well as peoples' preferences will ebb and flow. And I'm glad for that. Beer would be pretty boring without variety, innovation and change.

 

[T Murph]

I do that as well, but there is only so cheap you can get 1 lb of Citra/Mosaic/etc. I have gotten some of those for $20 per lb on sale at YVH, but even there many hops are around $30 per lb. They do have some nice hops around $18 per lb (Azacca, El Dorado, Idaho 7, etc.) and using cheaper hops like Centennial, Columbus, Cascade, etc. are an option. But if I repitch harvested yeast, I can make a Saison for around $15 in ingredients.

And this is why I'm starting a hop garden. I'm planting my favorite seven varieties now and will expand as needed.

 

[Teufelhunde]

Does anyone else find NEIPAs and some IPAs unpleasant? Maybe I've been drinking some bad examples, because I can't understand how someone can find these beers drinkable. If you like them, good for you, I'm not saying you are wrong and I am right.

Not at all.....BRING ON THE HOPS......

 

[Noob_Brewer]

Have been thoroughly entertained reading through this thread especially with all the analogies used lol. It does seem like a loaded question though as I am of the opinion that its not just sheer high volumes that can make these beers overwhelming but the process used to make the beers. From my perspective - I personally I LOVE saturated hop flavor and aroma. I also prefer IPAs/NEIPAs/West Coast IPAs etc where I can actually make out the different hop flavors. In some poor examples, I agree that some breweries are surely just tossing all they have into it and putting it on tap. It ends up being murky often times but what makes them overwhelming to me is when they are filled with hop burn where it tastes like my mouth is on fire lol. Thats no fun. But I think this is also some breweries processes (or lack thereof) that can lead to this, not necessarily too much volume of hops. Example: I love Other Half - they use (from what Ive read) a very high hop load but I haven't gotten the off-flavors/hop burn/too-much-bitterness that can come with extreme hop loading from the ones that Ive tried. So that tells me they have a solid process to deal with the extreme hop loading. So again, I don't think its always the volume of hops used that can make a beer overwhelming, but the process matters too. In the end, I could care less about how much hops are used as long as I can taste the actual flavor of the hops.

 

[MicroMickey]

This may be a bit out of place here but much of this extended thread deals with the pros and cons of A LOT OF HOP FLAVOR AND AROMA.

Some years ago I quit using Cascade hops. It seemed like trying to swallow hack saw blades. I went to Centennial and Amarillo instead. They were fine. For a long time I thought that perhaps I had some imaginary or unfounded prejudice against Cascade; some BS reason I didn't like them. A few years later, I read an article about the co-humulone component in hops. The recommendation was to use hops with no more than 34% co-humulone to Alpha acid %. Cascade (at least at that time period) was running around 39%. (by comparison, noble hops run about 22% - 25%) When I first started with Cascade, they ran about 5.0% to 6.3% aa and Centennial was around 7%. Times change and both are relatively higher.

The only times I use Cascade now is as a dry hop as it works quite well in that role. I like the aroma and flavor of Cascade but can't handle the throat burn it always seems to impart when used as a bittering hop.

I've also found that First Wort Hopping will generally give you a wonderful hop flavor. I've used this technique for many years now and it has served me well.

Just something to keep in mind.

 

[day_trippr]

One never knows what human genetics might effect.

I grew cascade for seven years and loved the heck out of it. Still do...

Cheers!

 

[Barbarossa]

View attachment 725075
My favorite - artificial beer & artificial cheese

FIFY

Sure bro. 350 IBU as well as almost a pound of hops per five gallons speaks for itself. And none of them will become classics.

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

Sure bro. 350 IBU as well as almost a pound of hops per five gallons speaks for itself. And none of them will become classics.

If someone likes it, it's a good beer...for them.

 

[Barbarossa]

If someone likes it, it's a good beer...for them.

Here's a funny video. The brew dudes tried to clean their fridge from their homegrown hops. I think they nailed it with their comment about some beers being bitter for the sake of being bitter, without character.

You are also right on that one. We can't discuss people's taste. Although, the question here is about those beer being overwhelming, not about their legitimacy. We can clearly say that a question like that is borderline trolling, as people gets into a scuffle about their own taste and choices. Anyway. Have a good one, no hard feelings.

 

[markcurry]

Here's a funny video. The brew dudes tried to clean their fridge from their homegrown hops. I think they nailed it with their comment about some beers being bitter for the sake of being bitter, without character.

You are also right on that one. We can't discuss people's taste. Although, the question here is about those beer being overwhelming, not about their legitimacy. We can clearly say that a question like that is borderline trolling, as people gets into a scuffle about their own taste and choices. Anyway. Have a good one, no hard feelings.

Ok. That's it. I'm doing it. I've got ~3-4 lbs of home grown Cascade from my 2020 harvest in the freezer. Less home brewing for me this year due to pandemic - less opportunity to share. Well, I've been doing smaller batches just as often, but not burning through my stock like normal So, like these two, it's time these hops got used. I don't have the cooling for a lager (nor the patience really), so an ale for me - but I think just like this video - all at the 60 minute mark. Maybe a little more calcium carbonate in my mash water, as they thought it might be help.

I'll probably chicken out and stop at about 2 lbs of the Cascade - but it'll be an eye opener I'm sure.

 

[Bramling Cross]

And there's businesses selling parts for this kind of car also. People are buying it. Paying actual money for it. Sure. Now go ask in a muscle car forum what we think about that.View attachment 725035

What's wrong with that? Clearly someone invested a lot of (I think most of us would agree, dubious) time in that, but that's their jam. What's it to you? I can assure you, that dude doesn't care what we think. Nor, should he.

You intimated that you're a muscle car guy. As a sports car guy, I think of you as my natural prey item...well, at least on the twisty bits I'm not about to tell you guys how to make asses of yourselves at cars and coffee, nor should I bother to listen to you when I take my hair-dresser car out to the race track. We're doing different things and that's okay.

I've been brewing a long time. I've seen styles wax and wane. But, I'll admit, the ABV/IBU wars of the 90's kinda pissed me off. Why on earth would anyone brew high ABV to achieve IBUs? That's stupid. Eventually, I realized the IBUs were just bench racing for sweet, high ABV beers designed for people that didn't know anything about beer. That's when I realized that it doesn't matter if the beer makes sense, it only matters if it sells. These days, it's NEIPA that sells.

With the exception of a Guinness or the obligatory psychological warfare bottle of wine at a business dinner, I brew everything that I drink. I have no interest in NEIPAs, nor do I have any interest in revisiting the the IBU/ABV wars. I brew what I like, you brew what you like. The NEIPA guys, let's let them brew what they like.

You do the muscle cars, I'll do the hair-dresser cars. The low-rider guys, those dudes are cool. The hot rod guys, it's evident. The low rider guys, mind-blowing. The big pickup truck guys...I suppose they have pills and procedures for that, but the guys it doesn't work for seem to have LED light bars to fill that hole in their lives.

 

[Barbarossa]

What's wrong with that? Clearly someone invested a lot of (I think most of us would agree, dubious) time in that, but that's their jam. What's it to you? I can assure you, that dude doesn't care what we think. Nor, should he.

You intimated that you're a muscle car guy. As a sports car guy, I think of you as my natural prey item...well, at least on the twisty bits I'm not about to tell you guys how to make asses of yourselves at cars and coffee, nor should I bother to listen to you when I take my hair-dresser car out to the race track. We're doing different things and that's okay.

I've been brewing a long time. I've seen styles wax and wane. But, I'll admit, the ABV/IBU wars of the 90's kinda pissed me off. Why on earth would anyone brew high ABV to achieve IBUs? That's stupid. Eventually, I realized the IBUs were just bench racing for sweet, high ABV beers designed for people that didn't know anything about beer. That's when I realized that it doesn't matter if the beer makes sense, it only matters if it sells. These days, it's NEIPA that sells.

With the exception of a Guinness or the obligatory psychological warfare bottle of wine at a business dinner, I brew everything that I drink. I have no interest in NEIPAs, nor do I have any interest in revisiting the the IBU/ABV wars. I brew what I like, you brew what you like. The NEIPA guys, let's let them brew what they like.

You do the muscle cars, I'll do the hair-dresser cars. The low-rider guys, those dudes are cool. The hot rod guys, it's evident. The low rider guys, mind-blowing. The big pickup truck guys...I suppose they have pills and procedures for that, but the guys it doesn't work for seem to have LED light bars to fill that hole in their lives.

There's nothing wrong with it, as I stated, but it's not a valid argument to dismiss the original question and answers to that particular question, which is "do we find it overwhelming".

If I find it overwhelming, why would I change my mind it it sells? My comment was merely to point out that we are discussing our own personal taste, not the legitimacy of those beers.

As for sorts car, I like them all. If I could, I would own a 370Z, a supra, a Miata, a 335, an STI etc... I just love cars. You wouldn't catch me dead in a Camaro or a corvette, tho.

 

[Bramling Cross]

You wouldn't catch me dead in a Camaro or a corvette, tho.

You're good people.

 

[Dgallo]

@Barbarossa i think you may just want to unfollow this thread. It has consumed you. I’ve had to do it to many of threads in the past lol for example I refuse to post in any thread regarding the use secondaries or that making hop tinctures is better than dryhoping. It’s like I found my inner peace