Anyone else overwelmed by the amount of hops in IPAs and NEIPAs?

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Taket_al_Tauro

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for example I refuse to post in any thread regarding the use secondaries or that making hop tinctures is better than dryhoping. It’s like I found my inner peace
I saw the hop tincture thing pop up a few times recently and I thought something just can't be right: if it was as effective as dry hopping everyone including the pros would just be doing this by now... so thanks, I'll now definitely ease my mind as well on this subject LOL (not that I was taking it all too seriously to begin with).
 

CascadesBrewer

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regarding the use secondaries
Part of me wants to try out a secondary for a hoppy IPA like I used to...but these days I am so paranoid about cold side oxidation I just cannot see myself doing it. Plus there is the memory of all the bad IPAs I used to make and always blamed it on the recipe.
 

MicroMickey

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Part of me wants to try out a secondary for a hoppy IPA like I used to..
Relax, nobody is going to break down your door to take you and your family hostage. There are very few innovations revealed in this forum. Please continue to brew.
 

CascadesBrewer

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Relax, nobody is going to break down your door to take you and your family hostage. There are very few innovations revealed in this forum. Please continue to brew.
Huh? I am making the best beer of my 25-ish year brewing hobby and a lot of info from Homebrew Talk plays into that. Yeah, you have to sift through some bad advice but there is also a lot to learn from many talented and innovative brewers if you keep an open mind.
 

bwible

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If I find it overwhelming, why would I change my mind it it sells? My comment was merely to point out that we are discussing our own personal taste, not the legitimacy of those beers.
People have no right to question the legitimacy of hoppy west coast IPA or anything else when cloudy beers made on purpose are all the rage and “pastry beers” are a real thing people are actually making.
 

bwible

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If you don't want to drink BMC....
This is something I’ve heard again and again and again over and over again for as long as I’ve been homebrewing. The hate for “BMC”.

We have people here hating on BMC and at the same time defending cloudy beer made that way on purpose, saying its what sells so places are doing it to keep the lights on.

Yet Coors Light is still the number one selling beer here in PA where I live - and probably in many other places.

I buy BMC products. Miller and Landshark. They are great, well made beers that have been around a long time for a reason. If you think they have no quality control, go take a brewery tour some time. I find no reason to hate on them so much.
 

Garfield43

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We can probably all agree that hops and hot sauce have a lot in common. A few years back the rage was how exhorbantly ridiculous a hot sauce you could consume without actually doing physical harm to your GI tract. There'd been hot sauce before and there's still hot sauce now. I'll admit to an attraction to the endorphin rush that accompanies the sensory assault of capsaicin from hot peppers or Wasabi.
The hop arms race reminds me a lot of what I call "spice inflation" in hot sauces.
I used to love Buffalo wings.
I never get them anymore becase many place's mild is way hotter than their hot was 15 years ago.
If you are someone who enjoys suffering though the hottest sauce you can handle, this is a golden age.
If you are like me and enjoy a little bit of sweet heat now and then, these are the dark ages.

Back to beer, somewhere we went from "the kiss of the hops" to "A 10,000 horsepower jet turbine powered enema of the hops!!".
If you like that, good for you.
It seems strange to me.

It is as if one day all the cake bakers decided to go with a more "egg forward" flavor in cakes.
Eggs are important to cakes, you can't make most kinds of cakes without them.
However most people really don't want a heavy egg taste in their cake.
That is pretty much my relationship with hops.
They are important, I am assured it wouldn't taste right with out them but I don't crack open a can hoping for a ton of hop flavor that drowns out the malt and everything else.
Well after a the success of "egg forward" things progressed and now in our hypothetical example most cakes are more like an omelet.
That's where I am with a lot of craft brews.

The beauty of this is as far as I know they still make Schlitz (however I hear the 'Gusto' formula is over hopped compared to original Schlitz from back in the day. Hard to know, seems no one actually wrote down the original "kiss of the hops" formula. So the current "original" formula is based off of 40 year old memories as are any legitimate comparisons of it to "original" Schlitz. I liked the pre Gusto reboot Schlitz, Haven't had a chance to try out the "new and improved reboot of the old and original" yet. )

Anyhow there are still plenty of American style lagers for me to choose from that have set out the hops arms race.
I just assume that IPA is shorthand for "undrinkable hop grenade I won't like" and don't buy them.
Apparently many people do like them since it seems every other new craft brew is an IPA.
 

bwible

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Apparently many people do like them since it seems every other new craft brew is an IPA.
BJCP 2015 Guidelines:
21. IPA
21A. American IPA
21B. Specialty IPA
Specialty IPA: Belgian IPA
Specialty IPA: Black IPA
Specialty IPA: Brown IPA
Specialty IPA: Red IPA
Specialty IPA: Rye IPA
Specialty IPA: White IPA

So how many categories do we really need for IPA? Yet notice nothing here says NEIPA.

Every other new craft brew might be some kind of IPA but the problem now is more than half of them are not labelled properly to tell people what is in the can or bottle they are buying. If it’s a bottle, at least you have an opportunity to hold a bottle up to the light and see if its cloudy or not. With cans you have no chance - and more and more breweries are using cans, especially more little guys.

If they want to brew hazy, cloudy, dank, juicy, etc - that’s all good. All we ask is they put something on the label to let us know what it is before we spend money to buy it and end up with something we didn’t want. I won’t even buy anything in a can anymore. Too many mislabelled.
 

Brooothru

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The hop arms race reminds me a lot of what I call "spice inflation" in hot sauces.
I used to love Buffalo wings.
I never get them anymore becase many place's mild is way hotter than their hot was 15 years ago.
If you are someone who enjoys suffering though the hottest sauce you can handle, this is a golden age.
If you are like me and enjoy a little bit of sweet heat now and then, these are the dark ages.

Back to beer, somewhere we went from "the kiss of the hops" to "A 10,000 horsepower jet turbine powered enema of the hops!!".
If you like that, good for you.
It seems strange to me.

It is as if one day all the cake bakers decided to go with a more "egg forward" flavor in cakes.
Eggs are important to cakes, you can't make most kinds of cakes without them.
However most people really don't want a heavy egg taste in their cake.
That is pretty much my relationship with hops.
They are important, I am assured it wouldn't taste right with out them but I don't crack open a can hoping for a ton of hop flavor that drowns out the malt and everything else.
Well after a the success of "egg forward" things progressed and now in our hypothetical example most cakes are more like an omelet.
That's where I am with a lot of craft brews.

The beauty of this is as far as I know they still make Schlitz (however I hear the 'Gusto' formula is over hopped compared to original Schlitz from back in the day. Hard to know, seems no one actually wrote down the original "kiss of the hops" formula. So the current "original" formula is based off of 40 year old memories as are any legitimate comparisons of it to "original" Schlitz. I liked the pre Gusto reboot Schlitz, Haven't had a chance to try out the "new and improved reboot of the old and original" yet. )

Anyhow there are still plenty of American style lagers for me to choose from that have set out the hops arms race.
I just assume that IPA is shorthand for "undrinkable hop grenade I won't like" and don't buy them.
Apparently many people do like them since it seems every other new craft brew is an IPA.
Couldn't agree more^^^^

You're singin' my song, Bro'. But then you had me at "egg forward" cakes, and that throwback to my childhood years of drinking Schlitz "with just the kiss of the hops" advertising tagline.
 

The_CuRe

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Not overwelmed in my brews (I just made a 5 galon blonde with 4 oz of mosaic), but tired of the hazyness, I refuse to call neipas ipas just cos those are not bitter and not dry, for me, those are 2 essencial characteristics of an IPA. Yet they do have a place, of course.
 

Snuffy

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Everybody has a NEIPA on the board now. It’s a thing. I personally don’t get it. ” Juice bomb” in the description of a beer does not pique my interest. It’s like the process broke down and they just ran with it. But that is probably how most new beer styles came about. I try and keep an open mind and won’t turn one down - if somebody else is buying. I do like the idea that new styles are out there and beer evolves. Somebody was willing to trial and error that beer into existence. More power to em.
 

Toxxyc

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I like that there are different types of beers. Juice bomb is just another one. Like a sweet chocolate milk stout - it's not to everyone's taste, but I love it.

Let's take another example - Gose or other sour styles. If you ask me, it's vomit-inducing disgusting, and I cannot stand it, yet there are great examples and people love it. This is just the same in my eyes. You will find people who enjoy a style, and you will find people who do not.

What I do think is that it's really low and a supremely cheap and uncalled for shot to break down a style simply because you do not like it. Let people drink what they like, how they like. It's them drinking it - not you - so why does it bother you?
 

Snuffy

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What I do think is that it's really low and a supremely cheap and uncalled for shot to break down a style simply because you do not like it. Let people drink what they like, how they like. It's them drinking it - not you - so why does it bother you?
Brewing is an art. Art breeds criticism. Doesn’t bother me at all. Everybody has an opinion. I say let’s hear em.

It‘s not like religion or politics. This is a subject where a well formed argument could actually change someone’s mind.
 
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Snuffy

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Does anyone here have a suggestion of what they consider to be a good example of the NEIPA style? It would be good to try some that a believer recommends instead of just rolling the dice.
 

MicroMickey

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“Beer might sound a pretty humble thing. I mean, this is where we all get, all risk having our enthusiasm derided because . . . come on Michael, is beer that bloody important? You know, you’re a journalist; you have the power to change people’s minds. You only have the power to change people’s minds if it’s something you really believe in and something you feel you really can communicate and that’s something I’ve always tried to do about beer . . . and I just love it and I don’t just love it as it is, I certainly do love it as it is but I also want to make it better; I want to see new things happening but good new things, not bullshit.” quote from Michael Jackson
 

Toxxyc

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Brewing is an art. Art breeds criticism. Doesn’t bother me at all. Everybody has an opinion. I say let’s hear em.

It‘s not like religion or politics. This is a subject where a well formed argument could actually change someone’s mind.
There's a vast difference between criticism or an opinion, and calling someone's light lager they brewed with rice, dextrose and corn syrup "horse piss" (just taking a random example). We have a beer here in South Africa called Castle Lite. It's a 4% lager brewed using extract hops, corn syrup, rice and other stuff to make it get to 4% ABV but with very little flavour. It's not very tasty, but lots of people here absolutely love it (think of it like the Bud Light of South Africa).

Now I'm not a huge fan of this beer, but lots of family and friends are. There's a reason it sells the way it sells. Now I want to try and make something very similar to it - because someone I want to give it to, likes it. Who are anyone to try and tell me I'm making horse piss, for example? I don't care if people say "I don't enjoy that" or "I don't think I'll make it myself", but I think it's really closed-minded for people to then insult the beer, or the brewer.

Same goes with, let's take a popular example, drinking whiskey. There are people out there who swear that the only way to drink it is neat. That's it. Room temperature, in a snifter, and that's it. Whenever someone orders a whiskey on the rocks, or water it down, or add it to Coke, they are crucified as heathens and they don't know what taste/class/whatever you want to insert here is.

I think that's simply uncalled for, and says a lot about the person making those statements. I drink whiskey as well, and I enjoy it neat, or slightly chilled, or with a dash of water, or in Coke or in a cocktail. It's mine. I paid for it. I can drink it the way I want, no?

PS: Not saying you're doing that, but you get my point, I hope. NEIPA is a valid style. One I actually enjoy, from time to time.
 

marc1

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Does anyone here have a suggestion of what they consider to be a good example of the NEIPA style? It would be good to try some that a believer recommends instead of just rolling the dice.
I don't buy many NEIPAs, but I buy them from Trillium whenever I go to MA, and they have been consistently excellent. Some I prefer more than others because of the hops used, etc., but they are a very good example of the style.
 

odie

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I love a good IPA or DIPA...but not a big fan of the grapefruit... strangely, a SNPA recipe I've done a few times has somehow turned to grapefruit the last couple runs...I have no clue why other than possible fermentation temperature?

well, occasionally I have to sub the hops...but I go by the hops substitution tables so it shouldn't really be very different...
 

Hwk-I-St8

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BJCP 2015 Guidelines:
21. IPA
21A. American IPA
21B. Specialty IPA
Specialty IPA: Belgian IPA
Specialty IPA: Black IPA
Specialty IPA: Brown IPA
Specialty IPA: Red IPA
Specialty IPA: Rye IPA
Specialty IPA: White IPA

So how many categories do we really need for IPA? Yet notice nothing here says NEIPA.

Every other new craft brew might be some kind of IPA but the problem now is more than half of them are not labelled properly to tell people what is in the can or bottle they are buying. If it’s a bottle, at least you have an opportunity to hold a bottle up to the light and see if its cloudy or not. With cans you have no chance - and more and more breweries are using cans, especially more little guys.

If they want to brew hazy, cloudy, dank, juicy, etc - that’s all good. All we ask is they put something on the label to let us know what it is before we spend money to buy it and end up with something we didn’t want. I won’t even buy anything in a can anymore. Too many mislabelled.
You're a bit outdated there. From the BJCP website:

21B. Specialty IPA: New England IPA
February 21, 2018
Overall Impression
An American IPA with intense fruit flavors and aromas, a soft body, and smooth mouthfeel, and often opaque with substantial haze. Less perceived bitterness than traditional IPAs but always massively hop forward. This emphasis on late hopping, especially dry hopping, with hops with tropical fruit qualities lends the specific ‘juicy’ character for which this style is known.
Aroma
Intense hop aroma, typically with fruity qualities (stone fruit, tropical fruit, and citrus are most commonly present) reflective of newer American and New World hop varieties without being grassy or herbaceous. Clean, neutral malt in the background, potentially with a light bready sweetness without caramel or toast. Absence of any malt character is a fault. Neutral to fruity fermentation character that is well-integrated with the hops. A creamy, buttery, or acidic aroma is inappropriate. Any perceived alcohol character should be restrained and never hot.
Appearance
Color ranges from straw to yellow, sometimes with an orange hue. Hazy, often opaque, clarity; should not be cloudy or murky. The opacity can add a ‘shine’ to the beer and make the color seem darker. Any visible floating particulates (hop matter, yeast clumps, etc.) are a fault. Medium to rocky meringue white head with high to very high retention.
Flavor
The hop flavor is high to very high, and reflects the same characteristics as the aroma (emphasis on fruit, with ripe tropical fruit, stone fruit, and citrus being most common). The perceived bitterness can be somewhat low to medium-high, often being masked by the body and finish of the beer. The hop character in the aftertaste should not be sharp or harsh. Low to medium malt flavor, generally neutral, sometimes having a bready, grainy, lightly sweet flavor. Noticeable toast or caramel flavors are a flaw. Fermentation character is neutral to fruity, but as with the aroma, supportive of the hops. Off-dry to medium finish. Creamy, starchy, or sugary-sweet flavors are inappropriate, although a high ester level and lower bitterness may give the impression of up to moderate sweetness. A moderate, supportive alcohol character is acceptable but should never be hot or dominating.
Mouthfeel
Medium to medium-full body with a smooth character. No harsh, hop-derived astringency. Alcohol warmth may be present in stronger versions, but should never be hot. Medium carbonation is standard. The beer should not have a creamy or viscous mouthfeel, an acidic twang, or a raw starch texture.
Comments
The style is still evolving, but this style is essentially a smoother, hazier, juicier American IPA. In this context, ‘juicy’ refers to a mental impression of fruit juice or eating fresh, fully ripe fruit. Heavy examples suggestive of milkshakes, creamsicles, or fruit smoothies are beyond this range; IPAs should always be drinkable. Haziness comes from the dry hopping regime, not suspended yeast, starch haze, set pectins, or other techniques; a hazy shine is desirable, not a cloudy, murky mess.
History
A modern craft beer style originating in the New England region of the United States. Alchemist Heady Topper is believed to be the original example and inspiration for many other interpretations that grew in popularity in the early to mid-2010s. Brewers are continuing to innovate and evolve the style, with the style trending towards a less bitter presentation to the point of making a mockery of the term “IPA”.
Characteristic Ingredients
Similar to many newer American IPAs but often with more oats or wheat in the grist, and less caramel or specialty malts. Restricted hop choice to American or New World varieties with a tropical fruit, stone fruit, or citrus character. Neutral to estery yeast strain. Water ranges from balanced between sulfate and chloride to using more chlorides. Heavily dry-hopped, partly during active fermentation, using a variety of hopping doses and temperatures to emphasis hop depth of aroma and flavor over bitterness. Biotransformation of hop oils during fermentation may add to the fruit character.
Style Comparison
Compared to American IPA, New England IPA has a fuller, softer mouthfeel, a more fruit-forward late hop expression, a more restrained perceived bitterness balance, and a hazier appearance. Many modern American IPAs are fruity and somewhat hazy; if they have a dry, crisp finish, at most medium body, and high perceived bitterness, these examples should be entered as American IPAs. Noticeable additions of fruit, lactose, or other materials to increase the fruity, smooth character should be entered in another category defined by the additive (e.g., Fruit Beer, Specialty Beer).
Vital Statistics
IBU25 – 60
SRM3 – 7
OG1.060 – 1.085
FG1.010 – 1.015
ABV6% – 9%
Commercial Examples
Hill Farmstead Susan, Other Half Green Diamonds Double IPA, Tired Hands Alien Church, Tree House Julius, Trillium Congress Street, WeldWerks Juicy Bits
 

Hwk-I-St8

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I like that there are different types of beers. Juice bomb is just another one. Like a sweet chocolate milk stout - it's not to everyone's taste, but I love it.

Let's take another example - Gose or other sour styles. If you ask me, it's vomit-inducing disgusting, and I cannot stand it, yet there are great examples and people love it. This is just the same in my eyes. You will find people who enjoy a style, and you will find people who do not.

What I do think is that it's really low and a supremely cheap and uncalled for shot to break down a style simply because you do not like it. Let people drink what they like, how they like. It's them drinking it - not you - so why does it bother you?
This guy gets it. There are a lot of people who seem to have the attitude that "it wasn't a style when I started drinking beer, so it's not valid", which is really quite comical.

Beer is not a static concept. Every style out there was new at one time and I'm thankful for all of them (even though there are some I don't care for). Embrace the evolution of beer...new styles don't mean old ones go away, it just means more options for all of us.

If a brewery doesn't brew styles you like, don't buy their beer. The most interesting aspect to the "get that pseudo-style off my lawn crowd" is that we all brew beer here. We can literally brew whatever style of beer we want. Why someone with that power would get bent out of shape about what someone else is brewing is a mystery to me.
 

Brian66

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Does anyone here have a suggestion of what they consider to be a good example of the NEIPA style? It would be good to try some that a believer recommends instead of just rolling the dice.
I like Wrench by Industrial Arts. There are many local NEIPA's here in NJ that are OK but to me not worth the money. I like what I make better than 60% of the NEIPA's I've purchased and it's a little cheaper.
 

Tobor_8thMan

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I've always thought the mega hop-heads were similar to high school biology class. Remember the day we walked into the room and were almost floored by the smell of formaldehyde? However, the more we remained in the class the more the objectionable smell diminished.

I think the same happens with hoppy beers. People get used to them. What was once hoppy is no longer hoppy. They need more and more and more.

Just my opinion.

I do know, personally, hoppy beers give me a headache. No, not due to the ABV. Due to the hops. Perhaps a reaction to too much chlorophyll? I don't know, but I do know only hops cause (as other vegetables, etc don't cause the same).
 
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day_trippr

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50% of the beers I've kept on tap over the last three years have been neipas (and, let's be clear, it's New England IPA - though it could be more accurately credited as "Vermont IPA" - but absolutely definitely not "North East IPA").

I brewed through the face-ripping West Coast IPA IBU Wars phase. I was growing Centennial, Cascade and Chinook hops for many years which fit right in. And it was fun - I actually enjoyed the thrill of high IBUs - reminded me of Mexican restaurant dinners with my buds where we challenged how many hot sauce hits one could handle on their nachos :D

But, like those eye-watering nachos, the IBU Wars left my taste buds pretty baked (taking the fabled "lupulin shift" to an 11). But NEIPAs brought the bittering down to reasonable levels plus left a compelling residual sweetness that the WCIPAs never had. I was hooked, bigly...

Cheers!
 

Bluekat

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I like that there are different types of beers. Juice bomb is just another one. Like a sweet chocolate milk stout - it's not to everyone's taste, but I love it.

Let's take another example - Gose or other sour styles. If you ask me, it's vomit-inducing disgusting, and I cannot stand it, yet there are great examples and people love it. This is just the same in my eyes. You will find people who enjoy a style, and you will find people who do not.

What I do think is that it's really low and a supremely cheap and uncalled for shot to break down a style simply because you do not like it. Let people drink what they like, how they like. It's them drinking it - not you - so why does it bother you?
Absolutely agree with your post. I've stated on this thread that I'm not a fan of IPA's (though one of the best beers I've ever had was a pineapple IPA). But I certainly don't think it's appropriate to criticize those that do. Part of the joy of beer is trying different styles and being open to new styles as they emerge. To so strongly criticize our beer loving brethren when they like and brew a certain style or experiment with a new style seems immature and short sighted.
 

Snuffy

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Is a "Hazy IPA" the same as a NEIPA? Was considering the Lagunitas Hazy Wonder. Also Sloop Pixie Dust NEIPA.
 

Snuffy

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Is a "Hazy IPA" the same as a NEIPA? Was considering the Lagunitas Hazy Wonder. Also Sloop Pixie Dust NEIPA.
Nevermind.
"Haze is seen as a byproduct of the combinations of these NEIPA brewing techniques. Combining hop pungency with a silky smooth body causes plenty of hop oils and grain-derived proteins to remain in suspension. The now ubiquitous haze has grown to be a hallmark of the style, with NEIPA often being referred to as Hazy IPA."
 
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