Any tips for a first time Lager brew

[Prymal]

In the middle of my brew day now. Sac rest at 150 but the decoction didn't go to well, I pulled 10 quarts of thick mash brought it to a boil and held for 10 minutes. I then returned 100% of the mash back and my temp had only reached 160 where i was shooting for a mash out and 168. I just used the gas burner to raise the rest of the way to mash out. I have to assume that my decoction volume was just wrong. I am sure that I achieved the melanoidin production through the decoction even though I didn't hit my temps.

 

[FredTheNuke]

Did you hit your EST OG? If so all is well - no reason for a 168 mashout with highly modified Pilsner malt besides a higher temperature assisting in flushing out sugars... Especially when the next step is to boil it. Then again skipping mashout is one of those "opinions". I brew almost exclusively Pilsners and have yet to have a tannin issue... knock knock... I use Weyermann's Bohemian Pilsner with a bag of Castle Pilsner here and there...

 

[Prymal]

estimates OG was 1.060 my messured OG was 1.064. My eff was 77.8%, I am going to underpitch by about 50 billion cells based on mr malty which is kind of annoying but not to terrible.

 

[Prymal]

Fermentation ended at 1.010 which makes my final ABV 7.1% so i guess this has become a bit of an imperial pilsner. I did a 36 hour d-rest 2 weeks ago at which point I didn't taste any Diacetyl but now I do . Have had it lagering at 40 since the d-rest. I just transferred to a keg where it will sit on gas until the 4th of July hopefully the diacetyl will reduce a little more over the next 2 weeks.

 

[CidahMastah]

Fermentation ended at 1.010 which makes my final ABV 7.1% so i guess this has become a bit of an imperial pilsner. I did a 36 hour d-rest 2 weeks ago at which point I didn't taste any Diacetyl but now I do . Have had it lagering at 40 since the d-rest. I just transferred to a keg where it will sit on gas until the 4th of July hopefully the diacetyl will reduce a little more over the next 2 weeks.

When did you do your D-rest? (what gravity was the brew at that time)

You may need a little longer lagering time since the ABV is so high.

 

[Prymal]

I did the d-rest around 1.020 I didn't take notes on that point. I currently have the keg raising back up to room temp and will let it sit at least a week based on some other threads about topics like this. I might also Kreusen the beer is the week at 70 doesn't help.

 

[CidahMastah]

That sounds about right for your drest.

I think you will be ok, but it might just taste a little harsh. I tried a friends lager and it had some diacetyl right off, like slick on the mouth. That was right out of the fermenter before lagering (he did a drest too). It was slight and after lagering for 1 month or so it was noticeably less and gone in 2 months. Don't get frustrated, it just might turn around.

I would recc you keep it lagering as close to 32C as you can get it. Do let us know how it turns out though. Good luck!

 

[Prymal]

Absolutley I will keep you updated. Like I said I was hoping this was gonna be ready for the 4th which would have been 1 month totaly lagering. The butter was pretty overwelming so i want to try atleast the post kegging d-rest just for kicks, worst case it doesnt do anything and I lost a week, no big deal I have enough in the pipeline to work it out.

 

[CidahMastah]

Absolutley I will keep you updated. Like I said I was hoping this was gonna be ready for the 4th which would have been 1 month totaly lagering. The butter was pretty overwelming so i want to try atleast the post kegging d-rest just for kicks, worst case it doesnt do anything and I lost a week, no big deal I have enough in the pipeline to work it out.

I know where you are coming from though. It takes up a lot of space and time to do a lager. So I am always anxious until I finally taste it and it works out

 

[Rundownhouse]

I would recc you keep it lagering as close to 32C as you can get it.

I, on the other hand, would recommend lagering it as close to 32F as you can get it.

I'm crashing an Ofest from drest to lager tonight myself.

 

[blacksailj]

Cidahmastah how did your decoction vs infusion tests turn out? I've only done one decoction mash, a tripple, missed degrees each step but the final product was top notch. The mouth feel was very full while using only 2 row pale malt. I am wondering how it might have turned out with a simple single infusion mash and if the decoction mash actually lead to complexity to the beer. What are your findings?

 

[CidahMastah]

Cidahmastah how did your decoction vs infusion tests turn out? I've only done one decoction mash, a tripple, missed degrees each step but the final product was top notch. The mouth feel was very full while using only 2 row pale malt. I am wondering how it might have turned out with a simple single infusion mash and if the decoction mash actually lead to complexity to the beer. What are your findings?

I haven't done the infusion only brew just yet (but will try to post my results when I do).

So far I have a distilled water single mash out decoction boiled for 22minutes and a well water (close to dublin style) single mash out decoction boiled for 22 minutes.

I plan to do a single infusion with buoth the hard and distilled water, but due to my lack of lagering space I am limited to spread the batches out.

FWIW - my distilled water version was top notch IMO. I am currently lagering the second version so I don't know how that one will turn out (about 1 week lagering only)

Denny has reported a bit on the decoction and says he generally doesn't notice a marked improvement, and many tasters didnt either. Don't quote me fully, but Denny did a little test and those were the general results as I recall them (powerpoint presentation and all).

I personally think there probably is little palatable difference between an infusion and a decoction (I have not done a side by side though). But there is a certain sexy factor to performing one in your beers. So a blind taste, literally with a blind fold would be needed.

Until I do all the versions I won't be able to decide if water, and infusion/decotion impacts my lagers enough to warrant running to the store, or extending my brew day.


I have been curious about using 2row vs pilsner too. But never had done side by sides. I would be very interested to try that as well, just lack the space to do all my tests, I do 11G batches.

In the least my first lager attempts were sorta paying homage to the german brewing guidlines with the german pilsner and other malts. I am sure american versions would make a fantastic lager as well.

 

[Denny]

Denny has reported a bit on the decoction and says he generally doesn't notice a marked improvement, and many tasters didnt either. Don't quote me fully, but Denny did a little test and those were the general results as I recall them (powerpoint presentation and all).

My results are here...http://www.ahaconference.org/wp-content/uploads/presentations/2008/DennyConn.pdf .

If you add together those who preferred the single infusion beer and those who had no preference, it's clear there was no preference for the decocted beers. There were 5 beers and IIRC 19 blind tasters. The tasters were experienced homebrewers, BJCP judges and commercial brewers.

 

[CidahMastah]

My results are here...http://www.ahaconference.org/wp-content/uploads/presentations/2008/DennyConn.pdf .

If you add together those who preferred the single infusion beer and those who had no preference, it's clear there was no preference for the decocted beers. There were 5 beers and IIRC 19 blind tasters. The tasters were experienced homebrewers, BJCP judges and commercial brewers.

Thanks Denny - I was looking all over for that!

 

[Prymal]

So I took a sample yesterday of this pilsner and its a real butter bomb still, after 4 weeks at 34 and 72 hours at 72. I am going to krausen the beer over the next week. What is the procedure for doing this? How much starter wort to how much dry Nottingham (the only yeast I have on hand). Also should I degass before pitching the fresh yeast its been carbing for the last 2 weeks?

 

[Prymal]

So I took a sample yesterday of this pilsner and its a real butter bomb still, after 4 weeks at 34 and 72 hours at 72. I am going to krausen the beer over the next week. What is the procedure for doing this? How much starter wort to how much dry Nottingham (the only yeast I have on hand). Also should I degass before pitching the fresh yeast its been carbing for the last 2 weeks?

Any help with this would be great.

 

[Denny]

Based on my experience, a qt. of actively fermenting wort should be a good amount. If you have a choice, use a lager yeast. If not, oh well.....

 

[blacksailj]

As for using unfermented wort and adding yeast I am not sure. I know that true krausening is using fermenting wort which already has the active yeast present. For this I have a formula that has worked perfectly for many of beers I've done. A few things first: with proper fermentation at the correct temperatures and handling it is safe to assume, with out testing, that during fermentation the beer naturally absorbs 1 volume of CO2. If shaken or often agitated it might be less. That is on the skill of each brewer to decide. Also1 degree Plato drop gives off 2.5 volumes of CO2.

Equations:
(D*A)/B=C. Then,
(C*Z)/X=Y

A.Volume of CO2 needed in finished beer
B. 2.5 is the volume of CO2 dropped per 1degree Plato
C.Degree Plato needed to prime the beer.
D. Volume of CO2 saturation already in the beer (or assumed level usually 1.0)

X.Plato of fermenting beer - degrees Plato of the final gravity of the finished beer.
Y. Gallons of fermenting wort needed to prime (Z)sized keg/cask.
Z. The gallon size of keg.

If you still plan on using unfermented wort I would suggest using this equation for an estimate and add just a little amount of yeast or at least make a starter.

 

[Denny]

As for using unfermented wort and adding yeast I am not sure. I know that true krausening is using fermenting wort which already has the active yeast present. For this I have a formula that has worked perfectly for many of beers I've done. A few things first: with proper fermentation at the correct temperatures and handling it is safe to assume, with out testing, that during fermentation the beer naturally absorbs 1 volume of CO2. If shaken or often agitated it might be less. That is on the skill of each brewer to decide. Also1 degree Plato drop gives off 2.5 volumes of CO2.

Equations:
(D*A)/B=C. Then,
(C*Z)/X=Y

A.Volume of CO2 needed in finished beer
B. 2.5 is the volume of CO2 dropped per 1degree Plato
C.Degree Plato needed to prime the beer.
D. Volume of CO2 saturation already in the beer (or assumed level usually 1.0)

X.Plato of fermenting beer - degrees Plato of the final gravity of the finished beer.
Y. Gallons of fermenting wort needed to prime (Z)sized keg/cask.
Z. The gallon size of keg.

If you still plan on using unfermented wort I would suggest using this equation for an estimate and add just a little amount of yeast or at least make a starter.

However, this appears to be for priming the beer. The poster above wanted to reduce diacetyl, a different issue. The yeast consumes the diacetyl, so adding actively fermenting wort is pretty important.

 

[blacksailj]

In my readings, when krausening beer ment to prime with fermenting wort. When doing so it is known to clean up the yeast as you mentioned in the package. I don't know the term for it, but repitching fermenting wort and let it do it's a thing before carbonating and packaging ,it would still do a good job of cleaning it up. In that case I would follow your advise on the volume. At least if you want to krausen it again you the the formula. Good luck and keep us posted on the outcome.

 

[Denny]

Generally when you do what you describe it's called "priming with gyle" and actively fermenting wort is not used. But there are variations on the technique.

 

[blacksailj]

I know, there are a ton of variations to every step of brewing and most work well one way another. When I worked at a brewery and was give the cask duties & we always used fermenting wort/gyle to prime our bright beer. That was the method used and worked flawlessly. That's where I learned this equation. Another method for this would be know your yeast an attenuation rate, do the math and package it at the right moment that when it finishes it will have produced the correct volumes. I find the other way much easier.

As for adding fermenting wort to clean up byproducts like diacteyl, I just got done reading a book from a brewer writen in the early 1800s and they did this to every batch wheater it needed it or not, but added the fermenting gyle right before it hit terminal gravity.

 

[Prymal]

Based on my experience, a qt. of actively fermenting wort should be a good amount. If you have a choice, use a lager yeast. If not, oh well.....

Thanks, I'll give this a go over the weekend. I am currently bringing the beer up to room temp and purging the co2. I'll update in a few weeks with the results.

 

[Prymal]

OK, I have the starter going but how long do I wait to pitch it into my Pilsner? 1 quart starter with 1 packet of Nottingham.

 

[Denny]

Wait til you think it's about at high krausen, then pitch it.

 

[passedpawn]

FYI I've made pilsners with that Rahr 1-row (is it the 1.7L stuff?) Came out as an almost perfect bopils. I did not use any other malt. Wyeast 2001 Pils Urquell. I've made several batches. I didn't get any diacetyl, but then I don't think I can taste diacetyl.

I've got an identical batch with Weyermann Bohemian Pilsner fermenting now for comparison. I've done a protien rest with all my pilsners at 120F. This new batch is split between 2001 and W34/70.

 

[sonex]

FYI I've made pilsners with that Rahr 1-row (is it the 1.7L stuff?) Came out as an almost perfect bopils. I did not use any other malt. Wyeast 2001 Pils Urquell. I've made several batches. I didn't get any diacetyl, but then I don't think I can taste diacetyl.

I've got an identical batch with Weyermann Bohemian Pilsner fermenting now for comparison. I've done a protien rest with all my pilsners at 120F. This new batch is split between 2001 and W34/70.

report back on your impressions. I'm curious how the 34/70 dry yeast compares, it would be nice to save money for my next Bo Pils if the results are good.

 

[Prymal]

34/70 is the most popular lager strain in the world so it has a fantastic track record if pitched properly at the right temps.

 

[sonex]

34/70 is the most popular lager strain in the world so it has a fantastic track record if pitched properly at the right temps.

this is true, but sometimes the process of making a strain dry will slightly alter the yeast. I have used 34/70 in darker lagers and it was fine but there are stronger malt flavors to hide off tastes that a yeast may throw off. In a very light beer like a BO Pils there is not much to hide a slight odd flavor.

 

[Prymal]

Wait til you think it's about at high krausen, then pitch it.

Well that was a waste of a packet of yeast. There was just the smallest layer of krausen when I went to bed and it had totally dropped out and finished fermenting by the time i woke up. I guess I try again earlier in the morning so that I can monitor more closely.