Another mediocre beer...getting frustrated

[mjasinski30]

Hey guys. Just popped open another beer (American red ale) and again, something is just off. It’s not flat, but tastes a little flat. Also the coloring is much more hazy than I’d expect out of a red ale. I’ve attached a picture of the recipe and end product.

I’m guessing it’s in the fermentation somewhere. I tried to keep a closer eye on the temp and kept it around 68 the whole time. It’s either that or maybe it got infected somewhere along the way. It’s the fourth batch I’ve brewed and the best so far but I keep running into the flat/unclean taste.

Thanks in advance!

 

[Sammy86]

Hey guys. Just popped open another beer (American red ale) and again, something is just off. It’s not flat, but tastes a little flat. Also the coloring is much more hazy than I’d expect out of a red ale. I’ve attached a picture of the recipe and end product.

I’m guessing it’s in the fermentation somewhere. I tried to keep a closer eye on the temp and kept it around 68 the whole time. It’s either that or maybe it got infected somewhere along the way. It’s the fourth batch I’ve brewed and the best so far but I keep running into the flat/unclean taste.

Thanks in advance!

View attachment 717675View attachment 717674

Are you bottling or kegging? Either way, head looks decent from the picture.

You gotta let the flavors develop...2-3 weeks of maturation is a necessity...why the old saying goes Patience is a virtue.

From the picture it doesn't look infected and your fermentation temp was fine...mu guess is you're drinking young beer.

 

[mjasinski30]

Are you bottling or kegging? Either way, head looks decent from the picture.

You gotta let the flavors develop...2-3 weeks of maturation is a necessity...why the old saying goes Patience is a virtue.

From the picture it doesn't look infected and your fermentation temp was fine...mu guess is you're drinking young beer.

Thanks. I’m bottling. The taste isn’t terrible, so maybe it’s just not done. I let it ferment for 2.5 weeks. Maybe it needed a few more days. The recipe called for two weeks (unless I read it wrong). Thanks for the feedback. I’ll keep trying.

 

[Tobor_8thMan]

Please realize the "Heat up 3 gallons of water to 160F. Place the grains in a mesh grain bag and steep in the hot water for 60 minutes." Will probably immediately lose 10F when the grains are initially put in. This means 150F. Then, over 1 hour more heat is lost leading to inefficient mash.

Concerned about haze? Was it fined?

 

[Sammy86]

Thanks. I’m bottling. The taste isn’t terrible, so maybe it’s just not done. I let it ferment for 2.5 weeks. Maybe it needed a few more days. The recipe called for two weeks (unless I read it wrong). Thanks for the feedback. I’ll keep trying.

Once you bottle, minimum 2-3 weeks to carb and condition...then 24 hrs in the fridge before drinking. Might seem drastic but it will help.

 

[Tobor_8thMan]

Hardest part is waiting...

 

[Joeywhat]

4th brew? Keep going. It's like playing an instrument. You're not awesome at it right off the bat. It'll take some time and fine tuning to get things going. Your processes will change and adapt and each beer will get a little better (with caveat that some of them will be a lot worse in between ).

 

[mjasinski30]

Thanks, guys. I let it carb and condition for about 3 weeks for the first 12. Second twelve are still conditioning so maybe there will be a difference.

 

[mjasinski30]

4th brew? Keep going. It's like playing an instrument. You're not awesome at it right off the bat. It'll take some time and fine tuning to get things going. Your processes will change and adapt and each beer will get a little better (with caveat that some of them will be a lot worse in between ).

Thanks for the encouragement. I’m not giving up yet!

 

[Joeywhat]

At the end of the day, if you haven't brewed an awful beer, you just haven't brewed long enough. There will be some bad ones here and there, and those are learning moments. Good beer is built on the foundation of bad and so-so and not bad beer. Central Europe didn't get good at it overnight and neither will you.

Luckily the internet exists so a lot of the trial and error can be bypassed. The rest of the "error" is just getting some character along the way

 

[z-bob]

Stale malt extract will do that. 20-something years ago I was doing partial-mash beers using a 30 lb growler of LME that I bought on sale. Couldn't figure out why all my beers had a "twang" to them and assumed it was the little bit of sugar I was using for priming the bottles. Nope, pretty sure it was the two year old malt extract. (probably oxidized)

 

[D.B.Moody]

I think the beer looks good, and I like Challenger and EKG hops combination. Clearing is mostly time, though finings can help. If you're unhappy with the carbonation, check your priming. The instructions weren't displayed for this, but, if it involves boiling corn sugar in water for 5 minutes, you can boil off some sugar. Maybe add a smidgen more corn sugar next time. (Smidge is a technical term for less than a skosh.) I assume you followed instructions and kept the steep at at least 150.

 

[tracer bullet]

Please realize the "Heat up 3 gallons of water to 160F. Place the grains in a mesh grain bag and steep in the hot water for 60 minutes." Will probably immediately lose 10F when the grains are initially put in. This means 150F. Then, over 1 hour more heat is lost leading to inefficient mash.

I think there's a lot here. 150 might be going WAY down to 100 or so by the time that hour is up. And other than getting a little color, tiny bit of flavor, it's basically a 5lb Light LME beer. It won't be very exciting.

I keep running into the flat/unclean taste.

Can you expand on that a little more? Compare it to something.

Stale malt extract will do that.

Good point as well.

 

[brewdude88]

The two things that I find can cause the most problems for newer brewers are water and fermentation temperature.

What is your water source? Does it contain chlorine/chloramine? Alkalinity/mineral profile known?

How are you monitoring fermentation temp?

Just to be clear, does it taste flat from a carbonation standpoint or from a flavor standpoint like mashed potatoes with no salt.

 

[mjasinski30]

I think there's a lot here. 150 might be going WAY down to 100 or so by the time that hour is up. And other than getting a little color, tiny bit of flavor, it's basically a 5lb Light LME beer. It won't be very exciting.



Can you expand on that a little more? Compare it to something.



Good point as well.

The two things that I find can cause the most problems for newer brewers are water and fermentation temperature.

What is your water source? Does it contain chlorine/chloramine? Alkalinity/mineral profile known?

How are you monitoring fermentation temp?

Just to be clear, does it taste flat from a carbonation standpoint or from a flavor standpoint like mashed potatoes with no salt.

The flat/unclean taste is not lack of carbonation but as brewdude said more like lack of taste (mashed potatoes without salt). As I finished the pint, the taste got better, but again, something just tasted off.

As for fermentation temp, right now I’m simply monitoring by putting a thermometer on top of the bucket. I know that’s overly simple, but it’s what I have to work with for now. I’ve considered buying and outfitting a mini-fridge especially for when it warms up here in Texas and it gets hard to keep room temperature down. Just not ready to commit quite yet.

 

[mjasinski30]

At the end of the day, if you haven't brewed an awful beer, you just haven't brewed long enough. There will be some bad ones here and there, and those are learning moments. Good beer is built on the foundation of bad and so-so and not bad beer. Central Europe didn't get good at it overnight and neither will you.

Luckily the internet exists so a lot of the trial and error can be bypassed. The rest of the "error" is just getting some character along the way

Great points and helpful, Joey. Thanks.

 

[mjasinski30]

I think the beer looks good, and I like Challenger and EKG hops combination. Clearing is mostly time, though finings can help. If you're unhappy with the carbonation, check your priming. The instructions weren't displayed for this, but, if it involves boiling corn sugar in water for 5 minutes, you can boil off some sugar. Maybe add a smidgen more corn sugar next time. (Smidge is a technical term for less than a skosh.) I assume you followed instructions and kept the steep at at least 150.

Love the technical terms smidge and skosh. You’re speaking my language. I’ll have to be honest though, I’m not sure what you mean by finings.

 

[mjasinski30]

Please realize the "Heat up 3 gallons of water to 160F. Place the grains in a mesh grain bag and steep in the hot water for 60 minutes." Will probably immediately lose 10F when the grains are initially put in. This means 150F. Then, over 1 hour more heat is lost leading to inefficient mash.

Concerned about haze? Was it fined?

So heat the water more during the boil? I keep a thermometer in the water to watch the temp and I stayed around 155.

Also, not sure what you mean by fined?

 

[tracer bullet]

The idea about temps for the grains is to keep them around 150 - 155 or so for that hour. Convert their starches to sugars and get the flavors. Assuming here that they are milled and not whole.

A fermentation temp of 68-ish isn't bad. However, it was probably higher since the fermenting beer raises in temp beyond the room itself. I'm not sure how high exactly (low 70's?) or that it would definitely cause the issue, but it's a possibility.

Finings are various things that can go in the beer to make it turn clear. Helps settle the yeast out. Yeast doesn't normally taste very good. It could also be what you are tasting. Try letting a few inches in a glass warm up to room temp, see if it's still cloudy. If so, you may indeed be tasting suspended yeast.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

if it involves boiling corn sugar in water for 5 minutes, you can boil off some sugar.

No. Water boils off, sugar doesn't.

 

[Nokie]

Thanks, guys. I let it carb and condition for about 3 weeks for the first 12. Second twelve are still conditioning so maybe there will be a difference.

If you’re bottling I usually let them condition 4 weeks. Then put one in the fridge and try it. If it’s good then you’re good to go not not wait another week.
keep notes on dates and tastes.
sounds like that’s what you have planned with conditioning the other 12 longer.
Write down how the 3 week ones taste and compare to the other 12 when you try them.
you will definitely notice a difference. And it will ease your frustration

 

[bwible]

Thanks. I’m bottling. The taste isn’t terrible, so maybe it’s just not done. I let it ferment for 2.5 weeks. Maybe it needed a few more days. The recipe called for two weeks (unless I read it wrong). Thanks for the feedback. I’ll keep trying.

2.5 weeks seems like plenty of time but the only way to really know is to measure. You use a hydrometer to read your original gravity and final gravity. The final gravity should be in a range close to what the instructions say and should be constant for at least 3 days. The difference between these 2 numbers tells you your alcohol percentage.

I don’t think you have a fermentation issue. If the beer wasn’t finished fermenting and you bottled it, then you would first notice overcarbonated beer then beer would gush out of the bottles when you opened one and if left too long the bottles could start exploding.

By finings, they mean add Irish Moss with 5 min left in the boil. Or now they have Whirlfloc tablets. It helps the beer clear.

If the extract was old it could produce a stale flavor. Look for a best by date on the end of the can. I prefer dry malt extract when using extract because its less likely to have that canned flavor. Dry malt extract is a powder that comes in a bag, like brown sugar instead of a syrup in a can.

Hop timing is another thing you can change. Hops added at the start of the boil give bitterness. Hops near the middle of the boil are for flavor and hops added near the end of the boil give some flavor but mostly aroma. Use a recipe calculator. There are free ones online. Hops are supposed to be kept refrigerated. If this was a box kit with unrefrigerated hops that were sitting for awhile then that could also be an issue.

Brewing beer is like cooking. You really want to use the freshest ingredients. It’s important. Like you can stick a frozen pizza in the oven but its just not going to taste like what you get from the pizza shop.

 

[bwible]

If you can describe the off flavor it would help us to better understand. Here is a list of common off flavors and causes:

https://learn.kegerator.com/off-flavors-in-beer/

 

[D.B.Moody]

No. Water boils off, sugar doesn't.

Tell that to the stick plate in my microwave.

 

[SmallScaleOperator]

Tell that to the stick plate in my microwave.

That is a "Boil Over", which are why my wife no longer lets me make beer in the kitchen!

Keep at it, brewing decent beer is a series of small improvements over time that add up to your next brew being better than the last. Just try to learn something each time and have fun.

I brewed in Texas for a while without refrigerated fermentation. Room temperature 70 to 75 degrees. I would just carefully choose my yeast strains and beer styles for warmer weather.

 

[eric19312]

It's been said already but three things stand out...

The recipe uses LME. Not a deal breaker but if you can look for a kit that uses Dry Malt Extract instead. If you are buying from a LHBS stick with him/her, you do want to support that business, but talk to them and make sure you are getting very fresh LME. This stuff does stale pretty fast even in a sealed can.

Water - try a batch with either distilled or RO water. Since you are using extract you don't actually need your water to supply any salts. You shouldn't need it with distilled or RO water but if I was using RO water from one of those vending machines I'd probably still go ahead and treat it with half a campden tablet just to be very sure no chlorine.

Temperature - you need to know the temperature of the fermenting beer not the general area near the beer. Those stick on thermometers are pretty good for starting out. Precise accuracy is not that critical but you really want to know if your fermentation is spiking up into the mid 70s or higher. In Texas you are really going to need either active chilling (fermenter in a fridge/freezer controlled by inkbird, swamp chiller, glycol...) or learn to love brewing with Kveik yeast.

 

[ATLBeer]

First variable to change is the extract. Substitute the LME with 4 lbs of DME (officially 4.11). Add it late in your boil, like with 20 minutes to go, just before your second hop addition.

Leave everything else in your process the same and see if it improves. If you change more than one thing, you won't know wat it was.

Your process is within normal ranges for a partial mash /extract brew
Mash @ 150-155 is perfect and as a partial mash, being precise isn't required
Water - this impacts mashing most of all. since you are using a lot of extract, it isn't going to be the biggest factor
Ferment temp starting at 68 is just fine for an ale yeast, but you can check the specific strain to see what they recommend

Another option is to pick a different recipe. Why did you choose this one? Is it a clone of something you like?
I think your hop amounts are very small and it isn't delivering the flavor you expect. If you are used to drinking modern ales or IPAs, then this recipe is going to fall short of those flavors. You are using less than 2 oz of hops, and in several of my recipes I am using 10-12 oz for 5 gallons.

There are hundreds of extract recipes here and on other sites. Pick a clone of your favorite beer and use DME.

 

[Surly]

At the end of the day, if you haven't brewed an awful beer, you just haven't brewed long enough. There will be some bad ones here and there, and those are learning moments. Good beer is built on the foundation of bad and so-so and not bad beer. Central Europe didn't get good at it overnight and neither will you.

Luckily the internet exists so a lot of the trial and error can be bypassed. The rest of the "error" is just getting some character along the way

What Joe says is so true and well articulated. I had just welcomed a new member of HBT with the following advice. I think it ties in well with Joeywhat's train of thought. I wrote, "There are a few different approaches offered to new brewers as they begin to learn. Mine is to begin brewing ales. And, I recommend starting with darker ales rather than IPA's. With darker ales the characters inherent may hide any off flavors. Once processes and procedures are established and you get your brewery, "dialed" in begin to expand the style of beer you brew.

We want new brewers to be as successful as possible. Especially when they first begin. We would rather not hear of people leaving the hobby because of an early brew off flavor. LOL, I would have left long ago."

 

[Davedrinksbeer]

Since your carbonating in the bottle, your going to have a little layer of yeast on the bottom of the bottle so when your pouring you have to pour very slow and easy so you don’t suspend the yeast into your beer. That maybe the cause of the haze and some off flavor. Also seems most beers need a little aging. Always seems to me the 2-3 month mark is when I can notice improvement in the taste of my beers. I can testify that it seems the last 2-3 bottles of beer are the best tasting beers out of the batch.

 

[Davedrinksbeer]

Make sure you leave that yeasty layer of beer in the bottle when you pour.

 

[KeizerBrewr]

Most beers are just fine after two weeks of bottle conditioning. That being said, most of my beers get a month in the bottle; two weeks to carbonate, two to cold condition in the fridge, before I crack one. If you're using kits that favor LME, definitely be quick about getting them brewed up to help ensure that the LME is fresh. DME isn't as prone to that(not wanting to start the great DME-LME debate). How is your sanitation? You're being religious with the use of Star San and making sure everything is nice and clean before, during and after brew day? I might have missed it, but are you using your tap water? If you are, next time with this recipe use some good store bought spring water. Make one change at a time. If you haven't started one yet, get a spiral notebook and use as your brewday bible, meaning you write out the grain bill, hop charges, yeast, and any finings you use, then the step by step process how you did it. Note any changes you made. This will help you better adjust or just recreate a brew and keeping the guess work out of the equation. The beer in the picture looks mighty tasty, I bet it will be a different beer in a month.

 

[Brews and Blues]

It seems most of you guys give your beer quite a bit of time after bottling to condition. Do you do the same with kegging? Have you all found it beneficial to wait a few weeks after kegging as well?

 

[drgonzo2k2]

It seems most of you guys give your beer quite a bit of time after bottling to condition. Do you do the same with kegging? Have you all found it beneficial to wait a few weeks after kegging as well?

Personally I try to, but honestly it depends on how well the brewing pipeline is running, and if I'm stocked up or not. From some recent anecdotal evidence I think it holds up for me. I tried an all Citra pale ale after 1 week of carbonating in the kegerator. The carbonation level itself was fine, but the taste was a little green. After 2 weeks it was definitely tasting better, and nearing 3 weeks now it's tasting really great.

I'm experiencing something similar with a hoppy wheat bear that I brewed one week after the Citra.

 

[Holden Caulfield]

Just adding one other item that may have been a factor and that has not been brought up - oxidation during bottling.

It is very important to not splash or agitate the beer when preparing for bottling. When preparing priming sugars a good practice is to boil the sugar in a little water then add it to the bottling bucket so it is gently mixed while the beer is siphoned into the bucket. Then, only a little gentle stirring is required to ensure the sugars are evenly mixed.

In the case of the method of adding sugar directly to the bottles, do not shake the bottles to mix as this will introduce the oxygen in the headspace quickly into the beer, causing oxidation to occur before the yeast get an opportunity to scavenge.

Oxygen scavenging bottle caps are helpful no matter the method.

Once capped, the bottles should be carefully handled until the conditioning phase is over to minimize oxidation.

Below is a video that demonstrates just how important good bottling practices are to making good beer.

 

[SmallScaleOperator]

It seems most of you guys give your beer quite a bit of time after bottling to condition. Do you do the same with kegging? Have you all found it beneficial to wait a few weeks after kegging as well?

I try to give all my beer at 10 days in the keg on serving pressure. I have found that the last beer is always the best one... So I probably should start drinking that one first and let the rest mature.

 

[Davedrinksbeer]

Come back and repost on here March 1st and tell us if the beer on March 1st taste better than the beer you had today. Then that will help tell you if it’s just a conditioning time issue or a brewing issue.

 

[Nokie]

It seems most of you guys give your beer quite a bit of time after bottling to condition. Do you do the same with kegging? Have you all found it beneficial to wait a few weeks after kegging as well?

I don’t give it that much time when I keg. But I also give it more time in the fermenter. Usually an extra 5-7 days. I will keg and drink that day. It’s still a little young tasting. But not nearly as bad as when bottling.
plus when you bottle you’re getting a new little fermentation from your priming sugar that’s causing your carbonation. Which I allow the extra time in the bottle to mellow back out

 

[Nate R]

I cannot add anything else to the above good advice...
Except... if you want to share the bottles with your buddies, give it a clever name and try to use some fancy marketing techniques...
Call it an "Alaskan Hazy Red Pale Ale" or some such... the more adjectives in the title, the better. Your buddies will think you're a mad geniuse brewer!!

 

[drgonzo2k2]

I don’t give it that much time when I keg. But I also give it more time in the fermenter. Usually an extra 5-7 days.

That's a good thing to mention. Conversely I do a relatively quick fermentation, generally no more than 7 days. Then depending on what I'm doing it's a 2 day dry hop and/or a 2 day cold crash prior to kegging. With that schedule it seems like more time in the keg for me. The Citra pale ale that I kegged nearly 3 weeks ago is tasting really good right now.

 

[Tobor_8thMan]

So heat the water more during the boil? I keep a thermometer in the water to watch the temp and I stayed around 155.

Also, not sure what you mean by fined?

Must account for grain temp when heating mash water. Beginners will add 10F. If we want to mash at 155 F (which will make a malty brew) we heat to 165F. But, once again, depends on the temp of the grain and heat loss (especially if transferring hot water from HLT to MLT).

Steeping grain over 1 hour will lose temp. Your final temp may be way too low for proper mashing.