Another dumb spunding question

[broke student]

I'm planning on natural carbing my current batch. It's currently fermenting in a spike Flex+ with the cooling coil installed. I plan to cap the spunding on the flex at 14 and bring the temp down to 45F, let it ferment out the last 5 points. When I transfer to the keg which will be at room temp (62F), should I pressurize the get to 25 PSI which is roughly the same carb level, place the spunding valve on the keg at 25 and then transfer in order to not lose any CO2 and keep the carb level the same?

 

[Jtvann]

Havent checked the specs on the flex, but I dont think you will be able to get that high in CO2 pressure. I could be reading something wrong in your post too.

What do you mean by cap at 14? If you drop the temp down to 45, it's going to stress the yeast out. Those last few points will need the higher temp to finish out.

You are correct about the transfer to keg part. Whatever pressure your flex is at, you want to have your keg just barely below that pressure. It's similar to kegging already carbonated beer.

I've never used a keg for spunding. Always used my unitank. I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you should transfer to keg to handle all the spunding.

I think it would be pretty easy to force carb in your flex, as that should need less than 15 psi at lower temps.

 

[Transamguy77]

I’m looking to do the same thing, ferment under pressure, you will need to have the keg set at whatever pressure your unitank is at. You could just swap over your spunding valve to your keg after pressurizing it and then transfer your beer.

 

[RPh_Guy]

The best way to avoid oxygen pickup is to spund in the keg.

Transferring beer after fermentation (whether it's carbonated or not) leads to more oxidation.

 

[Vale71]

The best way to avoid oxygen pickup is to spund in the keg.

Transferring beer after fermentation (whether it's carbonated or not) leads to more oxidation.

Open transfers lead to oxidation no matter when they are performed. "You will get no oxidation because yeast will consume all the oxygen" is just a myth.
To answer the OP: what matters is the temperature the beer is at, not the vessel itself. Even if the keg is at room temp once it fills with cold beer it will chill down to roughly the same temperature. If you pressurize the keg to a higher pressure than the fermenter no beer will flow but CO2 will backflow and since you would exceed the maximum rated pressure for the Flex+ you'd probably blow the lid and possibly hurt yourself, so don't do it under any circumstance.

 

[RPh_Guy]

You will get no oxidation because yeast will consume all the oxygen" is just a myth.

Active yeast remove the vast majority of DO before oxidative damage occurs. DO is gone in a matter of minutes.

 

[Vale71]

That's all fine when oxygenating wort but if it's already partly turned to beer then lots of damage will be done. The golden rule when using the Drauflassen technique is never to add oxygenatad wort later than 12 hours after yeast pitching as what you have in the fermenter past that point is no longer to be seen as wort but as beer. Any oxygen that gets into beer does not purposefully aim for suspended yeast and will oxidixe anything it comes in contact with. Yeast scavenging can certainly ameliorate the situation but lots of damage can and will still be done. The only way to prevent that is to avoid any oxygen ingress at all (i.e. closed transfer ot a purged vessel).

 

[RPh_Guy]

Of course I'm suggesting to avoid oxygen. Don't aerate the beer.

I'm saying he should closed transfer to the keg to spund. It's not Drauflassen. Spunding in this case is [closed] transferring the beer to the purged serving keg during the tail end of fermentation so that the beer will naturally carbonate and the active yeast will absorb any minimal amount of oxygen introduced.

 

[broke student]

This all makes sense. I wasn’t sure if lowering the temp would be too stressful for the yeast to finish the job. I don’t have a keezer/kegerator at the moment so what I’ve been doing with NEIPAs is ferment in the Flex, closed transfer to keg and burst carb. I then will (closed) transfer some to a small 1.5 gal keg I have that fits in my regular fridge. Drink, repeat. The flex can withstand 15 psi which isn’t enough at room temp, but I’ll just transfer to keg for spunding. Even though the beer transfered from the regular keg will to the small keg will pick up oxygen the keg honestly doesn’t last long so I don’t think it’ll matter too much.

 

[bmullins393]

The flex can withstand 15 psi which isn’t enough at room temp, but I’ll just transfer to keg for spunding.

"The flex can withstand 15 psi which isn’t enough at room temp, but I’ll just transfer to keg for spunding. "

Could you explain what this means? It was my understanding that the Flex+ was capable of natural fermentation with a spunding valve. I have never heard that this was a temperature sensitive operation. I have read others accounts of doing just that. What am I missing here?

Thanks!

Bob

 

[Robert65]

At room temperature, beer will not be fully carbonated at 15 psi, that requires closer to 30 psi. At colder temperatures, beer will be fully carbonated at lower head pressures. Consult the standard carbonation charts for the relation between temperature, pressure, and v/v CO2. Since this fermentor cannot withstand pressure above 15 psi, to ferment and fully carbonate beer would require that it be held in a refrigerated chamber, and fermentation carried out at lager temperatures. However, spunding in the keg is always preferred, as the active yeast will protect against the oxygen exposure inevitable during even a closed transfer, and it is much easier to transfer beer that is not fully carbonated. Therefore, it is best to ferment at atmospheric pressure, and transfer to keg for spunding with the required remaining fermentable extract.

 

[bmullins393]

At room temperature, beer will not be fully carbonated at 15 psi, that requires closer to 30 psi. At colder temperatures, beer will be fully carbonated at lower head pressures. Consult the standard carbonation charts for the relation between temperature, pressure, and v/v CO2. Since this fermentor cannot withstand pressure above 15 psi, to ferment and fully carbonate beer would require that it be held in a refrigerated chamber, and fermentation carried out at lager temperatures. However, spunding in the keg is always preferred, as the active yeast will protect against the oxygen exposure inevitable during even a closed transfer, and it is much easier to transfer beer that is not fully carbonated. Therefore, it is best to ferment at atmospheric pressure, and transfer to keg for spunding with the required remaining fermentable extract.

Thank you so much!

So would you pressure ferment with spunding valve at room temp allowing the 12psi some use, then transfer to keg and refrigerate to finish the carbonation with a spunding valve at the lower temp? If so, would you still use Co2 to finish carbonation and serve?

 

[Robert65]

Thank you so much!

So would you pressure ferment with spunding valve at room temp allowing the 12psi some use, then transfer to keg and refrigerate to finish the carbonation with a spunding valve at the lower temp? If so, would you still use Co2 to finish carbonation and serve?

Ferment with an airlock at whatever temperature is appropriate for the yeast, no pressure applied at all during fermentation. When about 1°P from final gravity, transfer to keg and attach spunding valve set to required pressure for desired carbonation. No additional CO2 needed for carbonation. Beer is fully carbonated by the time it reaches FG. The only thing you need bottled CO2 for is transferring and serving; you can purge your keg by hooking it up to the fermentor and putting the airlock on the keg -- fermentation produces enormous amounts of free, extremely pure, CO2!

 

[bmullins393]

Ferment with an airlock at whatever temperature is appropriate for the yeast, no pressure applied at all during fermentation. When about 1°P from final gravity, transfer to keg and attach spunding valve set to required pressure for desired carbonation. No additional CO2 needed for carbonation. Beer is fully carbonated by the time it reaches FG. The only thing you need bottled CO2 for is transferring and serving; you can purge your keg by hooking it up to the fermentor and putting the airlock on the keg -- fermentation produces enormous amounts of free, extremely pure, CO2!

Got it!

Thanks so much!!!

Bob

 

[Ridenour64]

Robert and RPH,

Is this your guys process that you guys use for every batch? To closed pressure transfer to serving keg at the tail end of fermentation? then spund on keg at room temp to say 30 psi. How do you account for any sediment from this fermentation? Cut the out post dip tube to serve above sediment? Floating dip tube? Are you not worried about long term storage on the sediment?

 

[Robert65]

This is indeed my procedure for every batch, and it makes the best beer possible: fine carbonation and excellent foam, and it will stay perfectly fresh for an extremely long time. Not to mention it turns a batch around quicker. No need to worry about leaving it on the sediment.

I make primarily lagers, so I'm not spunding at room temperature; but choose a temperature appropriate for the yeast.

Trimming the liquid spear tube is one option, I have done that. I now have Clear Beer Draught System floating dip tubes in all my kegs and love them. Some people I guess just pull a couple of yeasty pints at the beginning of a keg, but that doesn't appeal to me.

 

[Ridenour64]

This is indeed my procedure for every batch, and it makes the best beer possible: fine carbonation and excellent foam, and it will stay perfectly fresh for an extremely long time. Not to mention it turns a batch around quicker. No need to worry about leaving it on the sediment.

I make primarily lagers, so I'm not spunding at room temperature; but choose a temperature appropriate for the yeast.

Trimming the liquid spear tube is one option, I have done that. I now have Clear Beer Draught System floating dip tubes in all my kegs and love them. Some people I guess just pull a couple of yeasty pints at the beginning of a keg, but that doesn't appeal to me.

This is enticing to me, because I would love to be able to get beers out of my unitank quicker so that I have it available for new batches. It almost seems to defeat the purpose of having a unitank though.

I mostly make ales. I’m wondering how this would work with temperature control. I know fermentation temp control is the most important during primary fermentation. After transferring to the keg, should I worry about temp control. In the summer my house is in the high 70’s.

 

[kevink]

Spunding in this case is [closed] transferring the beer to the purged serving keg during the tail end of fermentation so that the beer will naturally carbonate and the active yeast will absorb any minimal amount of oxygen introduced.

If you purge and transfer correctly, where is the minimal amount of O2 coming from?

 

[Robert65]

It almost seems to defeat the purpose of having a unitank though.

Just because you have a piece of equipment that can be used in a certain way, is hardly an imperative to do things that way, if you find a better way. I could pressure ferment. I have in the past, just because I could. I don't. And your unitank isn't going to waste. It holds pressure, which is essential to doing a successful closed transfer. Better to have more horsepower than you need, so to speak, than not enough.

 

[Die_Beerery]

If you purge and transfer correctly, where is the minimal amount of O2 coming from?

How does one purge and transfer correctly?

This is how, and if you are not following it, than you are not doing it "correctly"

http://www.********************/bre...rging-transferring-stabilizing-finished-beer/
and co2 impurity

http://www.********************/brewing-methods/carbon-dioxide-purity/

Short answer. Closed transfer and spund. It's the nearly the only way for homebrewers.

 

[RPh_Guy]

If you purge and transfer correctly, where is the minimal amount of O2 coming from?

Slightly longer answer:

• Some oxygen is present in bottled CO2, so if you use that to push your beer, it will be exposed to oxygen.
• The transfer and gas tubing cannot be 100% purged of air.
• The tubing you use to transfer may be oxygen permeable to some degree.
• Depending on how you purge the keg some oxygen may be present: if you use bottled CO2 there will be oxygen, and if you fill it will regular sanitizer to push out, the sanitizer liquid will contain dissolved oxygen and equilibrate to some degree with the head space while it's being pushed out.
• Leaky connections.

Is this your guys process that you guys use for every batch?

I actually bottle. Although my beers have a lower shelf life than they would if I kegged, spunding is still a very powerful tool that allows the preservation of the low oxygen character (when combined with other best practices) for an adequate length of time.

I feel like I should address the comments about the effectiveness of the yeast.

• Thanks to @Die_Beerery we data lots of data now that the actively fermenting yeast will consume the small amount of oxygen in a matter of minutes.
• We also have scientific evidence that dissolved oxygen does not immediately form reactive oxygen species immediately in beer like it does in wort during the mash. Molecular oxygen actually doesn't just react with every molecule it bumps into.
• Furthermore, pretty much anyone who's ever drank a beer can tell you that it doesn't significantly oxidize/degrade within a matter of minutes despite an open transfer (into a glass so you can drink it)!
• Lastly, the "proof is in the pudding". Multiple low oxygen brewers successfully bottle low oxygen beer while maintaining the delicate grain and hop flavors. The guy here bashing the effect of active yeast oxygen scavenging isn't a low oxygen brewer.

Of course botting is very prone to oxidation if you don't follow all the right steps, as is kegging.

 

[Vale71]

The guy here bashing the effect of active yeast oxygen scavenging isn't a low oxygen brewer.

Yes, and thus used to thinking with his own head and not just blindly follow some mantra. Just saying...

 

[RPh_Guy]

Yes, and thus used to thinking with his own head and not just blindly follow some mantra. Just saying...

Science is just people thinking and not actually testing, right?

 

[Vale71]

Ok so now the new version of the LODO truth is that oxygen cold-side is no biggie because you have yeast protecting the beer until said yeast is removed (in our case until the beer is drunk and digested since we usually don't filter) but the tiniest amount of O2 warm-side will turn your beer into a disgusting concoction that you have to be crazy to even think of imbibing.
Congratulations, you just went one order of magnitude beyond ridiculous.

 

[Die_Beerery]

Ok so now the new version of the LODO truth is that oxygen cold-side is no biggie because you have yeast protecting the beer until said yeast is removed (in our case until the beer is drunk and digested since we usually don't filter) but the tiniest amount of O2 warm-side will turn your beer into a disgusting concoction that you have to be crazy to even think of imbibing.
Congratulations, you just went one order of magnitude beyond ridiculous.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Ok so now the new version of the LODO truth is that oxygen cold-side is no biggie because you have yeast protecting the beer until said yeast is removed (in our case until the beer is drunk and digested since we usually don't filter) but the tiniest amount of O2 warm-side will turn your beer into a disgusting concoction that you have to be crazy to even think of imbibing.
Congratulations, you just went one order of magnitude beyond ridiculous.

Oxidation during the mash is facilitated by much higher levels of DO, much higher temperature, and oxidative enzymes generating reactive oxygen species immediately from any DO.

On the cold side beer is only protected by actively fermenting yeast (only during fermentation), and oxygen should still be avoided as much as possible except when pitching.

The attitude really isn't needed. It's just juvenile.

 

[kevink]

Slightly longer answer:

• Some oxygen is present in bottled CO2, so if you use that to push your beer, it will be exposed to oxygen.
• The transfer and gas tubing cannot be 100% purged of air.
• The tubing you use to transfer may be oxygen permeable to some degree.
• Depending on how you purge the keg some oxygen may be present: if you use bottled CO2 there will be oxygen, and if you fill it will regular sanitizer to push out, the sanitizer liquid will contain dissolved oxygen and equilibrate to some degree with the head space while it's being pushed out.
• Leaky connections.

Well, of course those are all potential sources. I thought you meant minimal amounts of O2, though, not possibly unmeasurable or hypothetical sources of O2.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Well, of course those are all potential sources. I thought you meant minimal amounts of O2, though, not possibly unmeasurable or hypothetical sources of O2.

It's measurable if you have the right instrument. With the optimal process it should be only a few ppb DO, which is enough to negatively affect the beer if you don't have active yeast to scavenge it. Many professional breweries do measure Total Package Oxygen (TPO). It's not just theoretical.

The source of your CO2 can tell you the purity.

 

[Transamguy77]

There is a lot of info here that I didn’t know, and at the same time I’m not looking to totally eliminate oxygen I’m just looking to know the process to pressure ferment, have the Co2 purge my serving kegs and then pressure transfer.

I have always made good beer and I’m hoping this is another way to simplify the process and if the benefit is an improvement that’s a bonus.

 

[Robert65]

There is a lot of info here that I didn’t know, and at the same time I’m not looking to totally eliminate oxygen I’m just looking to know the process to pressure ferment, have the Co2 purge my serving kegs and then pressure transfer.

I have always made good beer and I’m hoping this is another way to simplify the process and if the benefit is an improvement that’s a bonus.

Why are you wanting to pressure ferment? It definitely doesn't simplify the process, especially when it comes to transfer. I did a lot of experiments with it, and found that it offers no advantages for lagers not better and more easily achieved by other means, and is patently detrimental to ales.

 

[Big Monk]

 

[Transamguy77]

Why are you wanting to pressure ferment? It definitely doesn't simplify the process, especially when it comes to transfer. I did a lot of experiments with it, and found that it offers no advantages for lagers not better and more easily achieved by other means, and is patently detrimental to ales.

So here’s my thought process, I wanted to start using my fermentation Co2 to purge my serving kegs and naturally carb my beer at the same time, so my plan was to daisy chain the serving kegs and set a spunding valve to 15-20 psi and then just pressure transfer after fermentation is complete.

You say that it is detrimental ales, What styles? I haven’t read that it is detrimental rather no real benefit and I would think that it’s better for IPA’s, because it would minimize oxygen while dry hopping because I could put the hops in the serving kegs prior to fermentation.

And how I think it would simplify my process because when fermentation is complete all I have to do is pressure transfer to kegs that are ready to go and the beer is mostly carbed so it’ll cut down on the carb time and use less of my bottled Co2. Maybe it will be more hassle I can’t say until I try it.

 

[Robert65]

Sorry, late night, just a quick partial response.

It definitely suppresses ester formation and inhibits attenuation in ales, so the character is impacted significantly and negatively. Also, Scott Janish's blog details experiments he did that found it counterintuitively reduces dry hop character in IPAs.

Also note that there is a very simplistic and misinformed notion of what "pressure fermentation" means circulating in the homebrew and craft brew sphere. The actual commercial practice is radically different (see Kunze ch. 4,) and requires the same monitoring and control as conventional lager fermentation, precisely what homebrewers hope to avoid. There is simply no good reason for anyone, including the vast majority of macro lager brewers, to employ pressure fermentation.

You can achieve all your goals quite simply. Fermentation produces enough CO2 to purge multiple kegs. Hook them up in series if you like, let fermentation proceed at atmospheric pressure, and rack with sufficient remaining extract to spund. This is the essence of both conventional and "pressure" fermentation: the pressure (and elevated temperature) is only desirable at the tail end.

Unless you have the technical capabilities of a macro brewery, attempting to carbonate in a unitank and then transfer to package absolutely guarantees not only unnecessary pains in the a$$ but also rapid deterioration of the beer.

And again, you mention reduction of carbonation time after transfer. Using proper spunding procedure, there is absolutely zero carb time. Carbonation is concurrent with fermentation, but transfer to keg is simple and carries no risk of oxidation. Only sophisticated commercial packaging equipment can enable any practical modification of the process outlined here.

 

[Big Monk]

Always remember, there are no dumb spunding questions, just dumb spunding answers.

 

[broke student]

Sweet thanks for all the help everyone. I transferred to the keg and pressurized to 30 psi so I could set the spunding valve. Should I vent out the pressure I put in or just leave it at the 30 while the yeast finish up?

 

[Robert65]

Most of us put that kind of pressure on initially if only to seat the lid, and there's really no need to vent it. There's not much actual CO2 added there in the headspace. You'll notice the pressure will drop as this is absorbed into the beer, and eventually rise again as the beer carbonates.