Another Bru'N Water question!

[jdauria]

Have been using Bru'N water (paid supporter!) for a few years now and when doing normal adjustments have had no issues.

But lately, after reading Gordon Strong's Modern Homebrew Recipes, I have been using his method of water adjustment. Using RO water, I adjust the water to a 5.5 pH with phosphoric acid before mashing in and then just make minor brewing salts additions depending on the grain bill and style.

The question I have is how to handle this pre-adjusted water pH? Am I correct that I need to show my adjusted 5.5 pH on the sheet #1 Water Report input under the "reported water pH" section? And then on the main Water Adjustment tab change my dilution percentage from 100% to 0% so it's taking the 5.5 pH starting point from the first section? Pretty sure that is why I have been off lately.

I do BIAB full volume, so have no sparge water to worry about.

 

[ajdelange]

When you acidify your water to mash pH you are reducing its proton deficit to 0. You won't need to add any more acid to prepare your water for mashing. Given this you could simply report your water's pH as the actual pH and it's alkalinity as 0. As far as alkalinity is concerned you are brewing with distilled water (as far as the other minerals are concerned you are not). This is a wise thing to do (IMO) and it makes management of acidification easier. What I do not know is how Bru'n water is particular would respond to this methodology. It ought to tell you how much acid you need to hit the target mash pH without any consideration of the water. That acid is acid in addition to what you added to the water to decarbonize it. Should the program tell you you need base don't add base. Just deduct the required amount (in mEq) from the mEq of acid you added for the water treatment.

 

[bigdaddybrew]

High quality RO water is almost mineral free. It's PH will vary by the amount of dissolved CO2 producing carbonic acid. This acidity will have little capacity to effect mash PH. You will also notice in Brunwater that the starting PH entered on the water input page has almost no impact on the mash PH page. Not sure Brunwater is set up for pre-acidified water. I add calcium chloride, salt and gypsum to my RO water to build a basic water profile and enter this on the water input page. Then I enter my grains and mash thickness and add pickling lime or phosphoric acid to hit a predicted mash ph of 5.4. After mashing in, if needed, small additions can be added to hit the target mash ph. Does Gordon Strong's book explain the need to pre-acidify RO water?

 

[ajdelange]

I missed the key point in the OP - that it's RO water we are talking about. There is no need to pre-acidify RO water as it's alkalinity is close to that of DI water. There is no alkalinity (to speak of - it's about 1.5 ppm as CaCO3). I do know, I think, because it is hard to dope out what the program actually does, that Bru'n water calculates bicarbonate (in which it does its reckoning)as 61*alkalinty/50 when the pH is below 5.9 so just put in 5.9 pH and 1.5 alkalinity and then enter the resulting bicarbonate.

 

[mabrungard]

Unfortunately, Gordon's approach is a poor substitute for proper manipulation of brewing water and wort chemistry. It works fine for some styles, fails miserably for others. I guess you should plan on brewing only the styles the method works with.

 

[ajdelange]

Unfortunately, Gordon's approach is a poor substitute for proper manipulation of brewing water and wort chemistry.

As I understand it Gordon's approach is to acidify the mash water to the mash pH which seems like a very smart way to deal with the alkalinity of the water. I know Sierra Nevada does this for at least some of its beers. One still has to deal with the proton deficit/surfeits of the malts, of course, but calculations are made simpler as the water's alkalinity does not have to be accounted for. As the approach is quite robust in terms of acid/base chemistry I cannot imagine which parts of it could be considered improper with respect to either water or wort chemistry. Please explain this comment. What is improper? And equally important, what is proper?

It works fine for some styles, fails miserably for others.

Could you give an example or 2 of styles where it works fine and a couple for which it fails miserably? Could you explain why it works fine when it does and why it fails when it does?

Thanks.

 

[mabrungard]

As I understand Gordon's recommendations, it is to add X amount of acid to RO water and brew. There is no pH measurement and there is only one value for X. We both know that this should be good for at least one class of grist acidity. However, without the measurements or calculations to refine that acid addition to meet the requirements of either the grist or the resulting kettle pH, you are well aware that the result could be many tenths off a preferred pH. For example, applying that recommendation blindly to a stout or porter brew would result in a thin, acrid flavored beer. The recommendations appear to be more suited to pale beers and they should be adequate in that use.

However, I'm not saying that broad measures can't be applied. A couple of months ago, I authored a Zymurgy article that targeted the hesitant water treater. Providing descriptors of perceived results for classes of the brewer's beers, the goal was to help the layperson understand if their tap water had high or low alkalinity. The two general questions were: are your pale beers consistently better than your dark beers or are your dark beers consistently better than your pale beers? From that self-assessment, the article provided recommendations for either minor acid additions or minor alkali additions to try on their problem brews. They weren't intended to be perfect, but were intended to be a step in the right direction. The goal was to illustrate that paying attention to water chemistry could be worth it to the brewer. Hopefully, they will then consider delving into this subject.

The problem I perceive from Gordon's recommendations is that they seem to be applied to all brewing grists and I know that can't work. In a way, my recommendations help split water treatment into 3 categories when brewing with RO or distilled water: Adding acid to the mash for pale beers, Adding no acid or alkali to amber beers, and Adding an alkali to dark beers.

 

[ajdelange]

As I understand Gordon's recommendations, it is to add X amount of acid to RO water and brew. There is no pH measurement and there is only one value for X.

Breathing easier here. Didn't realize your comment was restricted to RO only and that the amount of acid was not to be adjusted nor that pH measurement were not being made.

I certainly don't think 'one acid addition fits all' and I have trouble believing that Gordon would try to promulgate that. Of course the Primer essentially says to do this though the acid amounts are 'adjusted' for different types of beer through sauer malz percentages. But no one claims that the Primer will get you Brewer of the Year.

 

[jdauria]

Thanks for the responses. Of course, I reread the the instructional part of the Bru'n Water spreadsheet, which I have read when I first downloaded the software. I do see that if using RO water then sheets one and two are not needed.

While Gordon recommends adjusting the pH of the water pre-mash with phosphoric acid, he still adds calcium chloride and/or gypsum to the mash too depending on the style he brews. In Modern Homebrew Recipes he says that he adjusts the water to 5.5 and does minimal brewing salt additions as a personal preference.

 

[ajdelange]

In Modern Homebrew Recipes he says that he adjusts the water to 5.5 and does minimal brewing salt additions as a personal preference.

I figured he'd at least check the pH. But then on the other hand I remember him telling me that he has a friend that brings him as much RO water as he wants. Not much point in acidifying RO water and the amount required to acidify it isn't going to do much against malt proton deficit.

 

[jdauria]

The problem I perceive from Gordon's recommendations is that they seem to be applied to all brewing grists and I know that can't work. In a way, my recommendations help split water treatment into 3 categories when brewing with RO or distilled water: Adding acid to the mash for pale beers, Adding no acid or alkali to amber beers, and Adding an alkali to dark beers.

I guess I should have included more details of his method since of course not everyone may have read his book. What he does Martin, is for most of this beers in the book,except pale beers, is he holds out roasted malts and crystal malts and adds them at vorlauf. So he is pretty much mashing a pale beer for every recipe. So with the acidified brewing water at 5.5 pH and the pale malt grist, he only adds 1 teaspoon of gypsum or calcium chloride per every 5 gallons of brewing water. Adding the dark grains at vorlauf are to reduce any astringency.

Using his method has been an easy way to adjust my beer, and I think I was stuck on it because, well, it's Gordon Strong! My beers his way have been good, but as I sat playing with Bru'N Water today, it dawned on me doing it your way, I have made much better beers!