American Pale Ale, my first creation

[gusty83]

Hey all. I just got into home brewing since I love beer and I really spend a lot of my time and money getting and drinking the good stuff. Ive started 3 beers so far, but theyre clones or other peoples recipes. Anyways, since I love pale ales so much and I have a lot of time at work to research, Ive decided to put my own together and I'd like to know what you think. Its an APA.

partial mash- 4 gallons

8lbs american 2 row
1lb amber dry extract
1lb munich dry extract
1/4lb aromatic malt
1/2lb crystal malt 60L
1tsp irish moss

90 mins
1oz columbus
1oz nugget
1oz zeus
30 mins
1/4oz sterling
1/4 glacier
5mins
1/4zeus
1/4ultra
1/4sterling
dry
1oznugget
1ozglacier
1/2sterling
1/2columbus
1/2ultra

white labs California Ale

What Im going for is a darker, heavier pale ale thats going to be as much bitter as it is fruity/aromatic. Also, this is my first partial mash. I feel like I need to boil non extract for much longer to get all the sugars out. Is this right? I was thinking 90 minutes instead of 60. I am also calculating ~6.5-7% alc/vol for this recipe. Is this correct? If its lower, Im going to bump it with dextrose. If something in my hops schedule is out of place please let me know since I its the most important thing for me here.

 

[jollytim]

What? An American Pale with no Cascades? Sacrilege!

Sounds tasty though... let us know how it turns out.

So is that a 90 minute boil after the mash? That is a hop bomb with that hop schedule. There really isn't any reason to boil for longer than 60 minutes, unless you are looking for more bitterness that a 90 minute boil will give. You'll have already extracted the sugar from the grains during the mash.

Good luck.

 

[Bob]

Jesus.

That's a bitterness delivery vehicle, nothing more. According to my calculations, at an average AA% of 10% for your three different varieties, you're looking at ~140 IBU from your bittering additions alone.

There will be no balance between "bitterness and fruity/aromatic". There will be

HOPS

and that's all.

I don't think it'll be a nice hoppiness, either. In the first place, there are simply too many varieties. You've got delicate varieties like Sterling and Ultra trying to compete with Columbus; Columbus will win. In the second, frankly, I think it'll have a better chance of dissolving the enamel off your teeth than actually tasting good.

So, to comply with "If something in my hops schedule is out of place please let me know since I its the most important thing for me here", here's my advice: Trash your hops schedule and start over.

Before we get into that, let me ask you a question about recipe design: Are you familiar with the concept of a BU:GU ratio? Answer that and we'll start adjusting the hops schedule on the next go-round.

In re: Boil time. 60 minutes is plenty. Boiling longer has nothing to do with extracting sugars ("getting all the sugars out"); that happens in the mash. Boiling can make the wort stronger through concentration, but that has some consequences (Maillard reactions, which impact flavor and color).

Adding dextrose will not help this beer as written. If you insist on that insane hops schedule, you need more malt to back it up, not pure sugar. Pure sugar will only thin the beer's body, adding further emphasis to an already excessive bitterness. In terms of ABV%, you're looking at an OG of 1.065 for this beer. Given excellent attenuation (75%, or FG 1.016), the potential ABV% is 6.5%.

Let's take another look at your hops schedule based on understanding BU:GU ratios and typical recipe formulations. I await your reply.

Cheers!

Bob

 

[kuphish]

I feel like I need to boil non extract for much longer to get all the sugars out. Is this right? I was thinking 90 minutes instead of 60.

No, you'll want to mash the grains. If you're mashing for the first time, check this link out.

 

[hereforbeer]

Try simplifying your recipe.Most pale ales consist of base malt+medium crystal and about 30 IBU's of American hops.Amber,munich extracts and Aromatic malt might be overkill.

 

[BendBrewer]

That's not a partial mash. You're going to need a mash tun.

 

[l1ranger]

i think you might be leaving the realm of APA and moving on to something else.
also, as noted, without extract, its an all grain recipe, not partial mash and you don't want to boil your grains at all

 

[coalpha]

This is a fake post, dont get sucked in...

 

[gusty83]

Mo its not a fake post, im just a beginner. I thought I would try and put something together but maybe im wrong. Im supposed to mash aat 150 and add extract and boil after 1 hour. How much longer do I leave the extract and mash wert to boil? The hop schedule I picked out was based on hops descriptions from research. I dont have first hand experience. No im not familiar with BU:GU ratio. So you think even aromatic malt is a waste of time? I wanted a little malitness to it as well. Ill take out the extracts and have all grain I guess as well. Ill also try and reduce my hop schedule which is probably overkill. I just basically wanted to start making something of my own and working on it. I really want to get a nice ipa going that I perfected myself. Thanks for all the help Ill fix this and repost something more refined. THnaks for all the help youve all been very informative.

 

[danlad]

If you are just starting, you'll never leave it long enough to mellow out with that bittering addition - I certainly had my first few drunk within... well, I'd only get a Revvy 'patience' post backdated if I said.

Read Palmer's online guide - helpful and pretty concise.
http://www.howtobrew.com/

If it were me, I'd do
60 mins - 1oz high alpha hop like your nugget.
20 mins - 1oz flavour hop, whichever sounds good to you.
dry hop - 1oz of whichever sounds good to you.

Keeps it simpler, but still hoppy enough I'd say.

 

[Bob]

I second reading Palmer.

While you're reading, read through the recipe database here on HBT. Pay close attention to the ones with lots of posts praising the recipe.

There are many homebrew clubs in the greater Boston area. Visit them, get to know their members, and join a couple. Figure out who the brewers are that people respect, and learn from them.

You'll pick up a considerable amount of knowledge just keeping your eyes and ears open. Good luck!

Bob

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

No, you'll want to mash the grains. If you're mashing for the first time, check this link out.

Great link, thank you for posting...I've been doing extract recipes and steeping grains now I will be adding mashing to my process....

 

[kuphish]

Mo its not a fake post, im just a beginner. I thought I would try and put something together but maybe im wrong. Im supposed to mash aat 150 and add extract and boil after 1 hour. How much longer do I leave the extract and mash wert to boil? The hop schedule I picked out was based on hops descriptions from research. I dont have first hand experience. No im not familiar with BU:GU ratio. So you think even aromatic malt is a waste of time? I wanted a little malitness to it as well. Ill take out the extracts and have all grain I guess as well. Ill also try and reduce my hop schedule which is probably overkill. I just basically wanted to start making something of my own and working on it. I really want to get a nice ipa going that I perfected myself. Thanks for all the help Ill fix this and repost something more refined. THnaks for all the help youve all been very informative.

Keep posting your modifications and let us help you work on it. BU:GU is the ratio of bittering units to gravity units. So, a beer with 45 IBUs and an OG of 1.045 would have a BU:GU of 1. Likewise, a beer with 30 IBUs and an OG of 1.050 would have a BU:GU of 0.6. So, if you are making an APA, you want your BU:GU to be between 0.7 and 0.9, according to Ray Daniels. Good luck and keep us updated!

 

[gusty83]

revise

2lbs american 2 row
3lb light dry extract
1/2lb crystal malt 60L
1tsp irish moss

90 mins
1oz nugget

30 mins
1/4oz sterling
1/4 glacier
5mins
1/2glacier
1/4sterling
dry
1/3oznugget
1ozglacier

 

[gusty83]

whats a good program for these calculations? Also why do you need to have this specific ratio?

 

[kuphish]

whats a good program for these calculations? Also why do you need to have this specific ratio?

The ratio lets you know how bitter the beer is. For example, a beer with a BU:GU of .5 is evenly balanced between malty and hoppy. A BU:GU of .33 with give you a very malty beer and a BU:GU of .75 will give you a very hoppy beer. The ratio is easier to use than raw IBUs because the IBUs don't mean anything unless they are considered relative to the gravity of the beer.

As far as software goes, I use BeerSmith, but a good, free piece of software is Beer Calculus. You will find that it will do the BU:GU calculation for you, as well.

 

[Calder]

The BU:GU ratio is just a guideline. If you want to do that style, you should (but not necessarily) be within the guideline.

Looks like a reasonable EPA. If you want an APA, substitute Cascades for the Glacier. Roughly 1.050 SG (assumes 4 gallons). Assuming a final gravity of 1.012 it will give you an abv of abut 5%.

 

[kuphish]

The BU:GU ratio is just a guideline. If you want to do that style, you should (but not necessarily) be within the guideline.

Agreed. Also, don't forget to adjust the AA% of the hops in the software to match those that you are using.

 

[Bob]

The ratio lets you know how bitter the beer is. For example, a beer with a BU:GU of .5 is evenly balanced between malty and hoppy. A BU:GU of .33 with give you a very malty beer and a BU:GU of .75 will give you a very hoppy beer. The ratio is easier to use than raw IBUs because the IBUs don't mean anything unless they are considered relative to the gravity of the beer.

This is dangerously oversimplistic.

BU:GU ratios are just as relative as IBUs or any other number when it comes to flavor perception. Bitterness, maltiness, sweetness, hoppy-ness, whatever - they're all flavor perception, which is notoriously resistant to being measured in any scientific way.

Cheers,

Bob

 

[kuphish]

This is dangerously oversimplistic.

BU:GU ratios are just as relative as IBUs or any other number when it comes to flavor perception. Bitterness, maltiness, sweetness, hoppy-ness, whatever - they're all flavor perception, which is notoriously resistant to being measured in any scientific way.

Cheers,

Bob

Agreed, but my goal was merely to give a general overview since the OP had no familiarity with the subject.

 

[gusty83]

Yeah beer smith is great. Thanks for all the help. Im going to go with a pound of dextrose to bump up the volume a bit. Have you guys experienced off flavors from sugars, honeys etc. I read a post where people were saying to stay away from additives and just use malt and extract for alcohol. Another question I have is why do people stay away from dark and amber extract as the main malt in their beer. Ive never even seen a recipe that uses more than a pound of either. I have a good amount of amber and dark that I need to use. I just made a winter warmer that consisted of 2lbs dark extract as the base malt for a 2 gallon yield. I sampled it a few days later and It tastes pretty delicious to me.

 

[hereforbeer]

Typically darker extracts are regarded as of lesser quality than using light extracts+specialty grains.If you have the dark extracts,then by all means use them.Better than letting them spoil.Also,using sugar will dry out your beer and give you a sharp cider-like taste,but in small additions can pass by undetected.

 

[gusty83]

thanks herefobeer. I have another question also. What is the relation between grain and extract. I mean how much grain is equal to 1lb of extract. Im doing a sculpin clone next week that needs 9lbs of 2 row. What amount of light extract will equal the 9lbs of grain. Id like to use 2lbs of grain and the rest extract for it. Any comments?

 

[Yooper]

thanks herefobeer. I have another question also. What is the relation between grain and extract. I mean how much grain is equal to 1lb of extract. Im doing a sculpin clone next week that needs 9lbs of 2 row. What amount of light extract will equal the 9lbs of grain. Id like to use 2lbs of grain and the rest extract for it. Any comments?

Generally, 1 pound of two-row = .75 pounds of liquid extract = .6 pounds dry extract.

If you have some software, it's even easier. Just change the recipe to the 2 pounds of grain, and then add the extract you plan to use in the recipe, adjusting the amount until you reach the desired OG.

 

[kuphish]

Generally, 1 pound of two-row = .75 pounds of liquid extract = .6 pounds dry extract.

If you have some software, it's even easier. Just change the recipe to the 2 pounds of grain, and then add the extract you plan to use in the recipe, adjusting the amount until you reach the desired OG.

Yea, the easiest thing to is plug everything into some software. If you don't want to drop any money on it, then just go to the Beer Calculus link that I posted earlier. It'll calculate everything for you.

 

[gusty83]

Heres my final. I subbed out glacier for cascade as suggested. doubled my 2 row and added dextrine.


4lbs american 2 row
3lb light dry extract
1/2lb crystal malt 60L
10 oz dextrine
1tsp irish moss

90 mins
1oz nugget

30 mins
1/4oz sterling
1/4 cascade
5mins
1/2cascade
1/4sterling
dry
1/3oznugget
1ozcascade leaf
1/2 oz sterling

 

[gusty83]

im also thinking 90g sugar per 4 gallons for bottling?

 

[munche]

The dextrine is pretty much going to give you just extra ABV without adding a lot to the flavor, for an APA I'd keep it simple and leave that out.

Most of the brewing software will give you guidelines to fit within a style as far as OG, IBU etc. I use Brewtarget because it's simple and I think BeerSmith is a bit clunky. I would plug your recipe in there or something similar, select APA as the style and make sure it fits the guidelines, then go from there. Simple is a good thing.

I'm doing an APA soon and my grain bill is 9# of 2 row and 1# of Crystal 15.

I might also recommend knocking it down to a 60m boil, that way you won't have as much liquid boiling off. Your hops look fine IMO

 

[gusty83]

3lbs american 2 row
2lb light dry extract
1/4lb crystal malt 60L
1tsp irish moss

90 mins
1/2oz nugget

30 mins
1/4oz sterling
1/4 ahtanum

5mins
1/4ahtanum
1/4sterling

dry
1/4oznugget
1/2 oz ahtanum
1/4 oz sterling

made it a little simpler. ahtanum instead of cascade for more fruitiness and a little earthiness to compliment the nugget. took out the dextrine. Also going to make 2.5 gallon batches to monitor how this changes more closely from batch to batch. Id like to get a good earthy and floral taste but with a nice lingering hop kick at the end.

 

[gusty83]

That's 60 mins not 90 and at 30 I want to replace the sterling with nugget. I use gallon water egoism I be adding minerals?

 

[Frodo]

I use gallon water egoism I be adding minerals?

No need to add any minerals, but if you're using bottled water make sure it is NOT distilled water. Spring water is good. You can use your tap water if it tastes fine and doesn't have a chlorine taste.

 

[Frodo]

As far as your recipe. Looking much better than originally posted. With it as-is you're going to be looking at a pretty low original gravity if your efficiency isn't great; OG of 1.042 with 70% mash efficiency, which is probably reasonable to expect, if not lower (depends on how you do the partial mash and sparge). And with that low gravity, your 53 IBUs will definitely make the beer bitter.

That said, I'd suggest bumping the DME to 3 lbs. I'd also bump the Crystal 60L to 0.5 lbs to give it more body, and caramel sweetness to counter the hop bitterness. Assuming a mash efficiency of 70% that would give you an OG of 1.055 and 53 IBUs, for a BU:GU ratio of about 1. Decidedly bitter but not out of your mind mouth-puckering bitter.

I would also move the 30 minute hop addition to 20 minutes, for more taste and less bittering. Something to consider too is using only one variety for taste (your 30 minute hop addition) and one for aroma (your 5 minute hop addition). Oftentimes simpler is better.


EDIT: Have you done a partial mash before? If you want to skip that, get rid of the 3 lbs of 2-row and substitute 1 lb 12 oz more light DME for it. If you did that you could then just steep the Crystal 60L (it doesn't need to be mashed) to dissolve the sugars into your wort.

 

[gusty83]

Ok so I will bump the dme and the crystal thats a good idea. I do like the partial mash since it tastes fuller I guess. I cant describe it but it adds a little more to my beer. I also like my hop choice since my last ipa was a cascade amarillo and honestly, the amarillo was not bitter enough( at least not at 1oz addition for the same size) and the cascade was very prominent. The beer was good but it tasted more like a full cascade beer more than anything. I had 1/2 oz boil 1/2oz dry of both if that helps. I wanted to go with something more bitter and also wanted to add some earthiness to it in addition to just floral or fruity. Im thinking a combination of three might work. As for the crystal, there are no fermentable sugars anyways so there wouldnt be need to mash in the first place correct?

 

[gusty83]

and thank you for the water information

 

[gusty83]

3lbs american 2 row
3lb light dry extract
1/2lb crystal malt 60L
1tsp irish moss

60 mins
1/2oz nugget

20 mins
1/4oz nugget
1/4 ahtanum

5mins
1/4ahtanum
1/4sterling

dry
1/4oz nugget
1/2 oz ahtanum
1/4 oz sterling

Should I maybe increase the dry hop additions since it wont affect bitterness at all at this point and I really want to sqeeze the flavors out? Maybe just the ahtanum. Have any of you tried the latitude 48? its supposed to contain a prominent amount of ahtanum and I really liked this flavor so maybe up that in dry hop. I think im liking the rest of the recipe right now.

 

[Frodo]

Should I maybe increase the dry hop additions since it wont affect bitterness at all at this point and I really want to sqeeze the flavors out? Maybe just the ahtanum. Have any of you tried the latitude 48? its supposed to contain a prominent amount of ahtanum and I really liked this flavor so maybe up that in dry hop. I think im liking the rest of the recipe right now.

You could easily go to 2 oz on the dry hopping. FYI I have never even heard of ahtanum or lattitude 48 hops, so I have no idea about them. I've only dry hopped once and it was with a high AA% hop, Centennial.

 

[hereforbeer]

You could easily go to 2 oz on the dry hopping. FYI I have never even heard of ahtanum or lattitude 48 hops, so I have no idea about them. I've only dry hopped once and it was with a high AA% hop, Centennial.

2 oz is no problem.I believe Ahtanum is the signature hop in Stone Pale Ale.

 

[gusty83]

3lbs american 2 row
3lb light dry extract
1/2lb crystal malt 60L
1tsp irish moss

60 mins
1/2oz nugget

20 mins
1/4oz nugget
1/4 ahtanum

5mins
1/4ahtanum
1/4sterling

dry
1/2oz nugget
1 oz ahtanum
1/2 oz sterling


i love stone ipa btw. thats good news.

 

[gusty83]

6lbs american 2 row
3lb light dry extract
1/2lb crystal malt 60L
1/2lb honey malt
1tsp irish moss

60 mins
1oz nugget

20 mins
1/4oz nugget
1/4 ahtanum

5mins
1/4ahtanum
1/4citra

dry
1/2oz nugget
1/2 oz ahtanum
1 oz citra


made a some small changes. changed out sterling for citra. 5 gal batch. Im going to give honey malt a try with this and see if the slight sweetness works.

 

[gusty83]

6lbs american 2 row
3lb light dry extract
1/2lb crystal malt (low L)
1/2lb honey malt
1tsp irish moss

60 mins
1oz nugget

10mins
1/2ahtanum
1/2citra

flameout
1/4 ahtanum
1/4 citra

dry
1oz nugget
1 oz ahtanum
1 oz citra