Am I expecting too much from a braid?

[DNW]

Ok, I did one AG batch using a 5 gallon paint strainer, but wanted to do a Pilsen with a multistep mash schedule using my new pressure cooker SIMS setup and knew I couldn't do that in a bag. So I bought a 3/4" braid and put a circular braid setup in the bottom of my 5 gallon Igloo®.

Once I figure out I needed to fully open the valve on my steam source the SIMS system worked great, but I totally stretched out and wrapped up my braid with all the stirring. It still worked OK - I feel I got pretty good drainage and ended up with just about exactly 75% brewhouse efficiency, but I'm wondering if I should re-use it. For one thing, there was a bunch of what looked like little pieces of SS braid in the bottom. For another, with the thing stretched out to almost three feet long I don't see how any more than the first couple inches are really doing anything.

Should I ditch it and build a copper or CPVC manifold? Or has anyone tried putting a "form" inside the braid? Like some tubing with large slits in it or something to hold the shape?

 

[Fingers]

You can reinforce the braid with some copper. Just drill crap out of the copper and insert it into the braid. Conversely you can just be careful! I've been using the same braid for two years now without any reinforcing at all.

 

[TheMan]

I second Fingers post...just practice caution and it will last fine. Mine hasn't been damaged yet either.

 

[IrregularPulse]

I've been using the same braid for 2 years now without any reinforcing at all.

I've been using my same braid no reinforced for 1.5 years. You just have to realize it's there and not destroy it. I use a paint mixer on a drill to stir my mash too.

 

[nostalgia]

I went with a stainless spring inside mine.

As you noted in your post, no matter how long your braid is, if it's not reinforced in some way only the first inch or so is doing any filtering. The rest is just going to flatten out once liquid starts running and the grain bed compacts.

-Joe

 

[Fingers]

I went with a stainless spring inside mine.

As you noted in your post, no matter how long your braid is, if it's not reinforced in some way only the first inch or so is doing any filtering. The rest is just going to flatten out once liquid starts running and the grain bed compacts.

-Joe

I have to call you on that one, Joe. Unless the stainless somehow springs back into round shape after it's flattened, you just saw the testament of several guys here who say they've been using a non-reinforced braid for years without collapsing.

 

[DNW]

I went with a stainless spring inside mine.

Exactly the concept I was looking for. I have one in my cart and will get it on its way the next time I place an order.

Thanks!

 

[nostalgia]

I have to call you on that one, Joe. Unless the stainless somehow springs back into round shape after it's flattened, you just saw the testament of several guys here who say they've been using a non-reinforced braid for years without collapsing.

You're welcome to call me on whatever you like

I of course have no proof, but neither does anyone else without a submersible camera in their mash. I'm just using common sense and a bit of logic. With nothing to hold the braid open, only the first inch or so of the braid will be actually filtering the liquid, especially once the grain bed starts to compact.

I could be wrong *shrug* but this is what I believe. The spring cost me $4 and has the benefit of reinforcing the braid and keeping it from thrashing around in my mash when I stir it.

-Joe

 

[weirdboy]

As you noted in your post, no matter how long your braid is, if it's not reinforced in some way only the first inch or so is doing any filtering. The rest is just going to flatten out once liquid starts running and the grain bed compacts.

Mine doesn't, and I've made plenty of high gravity beers in my MLT using the existing braid.

I know this because one time I did manage to tangle up my braid while stirring during a protein rest, and I was able to reach in and fix it by hand. No flat parts.

 

[Fingers]

I'm just using common sense and a bit of logic.

My sense of logic says that when my braid gets damaged, it stays damaged. So if it got crushed in the mash, it should stay crushed. No?

 

[DNW]

I have to call you on that one, Joe. Unless the stainless somehow springs back into round shape after it's flattened, you just saw the testament of several guys here who say they've been using a non-reinforced braid for years without collapsing.

Actually, no one said theirs hadn't collapsed. Just that they hadn't been destroyed. I guess until further information is forthcoming there's no way to interpret what "not destroyed" means.

When I started, my braid was about 20" long, and round. When I got done it was "stretched" as long as it could be - I'm guessing about 3' - and flat. I haven't tried pushing it back into shape yet. I suppose that even as is it would probably work just as well on the next batch as it did on the last one, since I would have to assume it was in pretty much the same condition through the whole lautering process.

 

[DNW]

Sounds like braid <> BRAID

 

[nostalgia]

My sense of logic says that when my braid gets damaged, it stays damaged. So if it got crushed in the mash, it should stay crushed. No?

No - I'm not saying "damaged", I'm saying "crushed" or "flattened" to the point that it will not provide a channel for clear wort.

If you pinch it flat with your fingers, does it spring back to round? In my mental experiment, the weight of the compacting grain bed flattens it out. When there is water in the mash (like during the protein rest noted above) there's no weight on the braid and it can naturally spring open.

Although for many stainless steel braids - like the one I originally used - flat is its natural state:

But like I said, I'm not claiming to be correct, this is just what I believe. The proof in the pudding is in the eating, as they say, so if it works for you, enjoy.

-Joe

 

[Scimmia]

You're welcome to call me on whatever you like

I of course have no proof, but neither does anyone else without a submersible camera in their mash. I'm just using common sense and a bit of logic. With nothing to hold the braid open, only the first inch or so of the braid will be actually filtering the liquid, especially once the grain bed starts to compact.

If the braid was somehow filled with air, your logic would be sound. This isn't the case, though. The only pressure exerted on the braid would be the difference of the weight between the grain and the water, which is pretty small. The grain doesn't sink to the bottom very quickly, right?

 

[weirdboy]

If you pinch it flat with your fingers, does it spring back to round?

No, not it doesn't. If I manually flatten out my braid, it stays flattened until I push on the end to make it round again. So, the fact that my braid is round to start with, and still round when I'm done mashing leads me to believe that it was round throughout the process.

 

[EO74]

where did u get the ss spring???

 

[nostalgia]

If the braid was somehow filled with air, your logic would be sound. This isn't the case, though. The only pressure exerted on the braid would be the difference of the weight between the grain and the water, which is pretty small. The grain doesn't sink to the bottom very quickly, right?

No, it doesn't, but once the grain bed starts to compact during lautering there will be a considerable amount of weight there to squish the braid. Maybe it doesn't matter because it doesn't start to happen until most of the liquid is gone, who knows? As I said, supporting the braid is cheap peace of mind and has the added benefit of physically reinforcing it.

Now I want to go test things

-Joe

 

[nostalgia]

where did u get the ss spring???

McMaster-Carr. Part numbers are linked in the thread above.

-Joe

 

[Synovia]

You're welcome to call me on whatever you like

I of course have no proof, but neither does anyone else without a submersible camera in their mash. I'm just using common sense and a bit of logic. With nothing to hold the braid open, only the first inch or so of the braid will be actually filtering the liquid, especially once the grain bed starts to compact.
-Joe

The braid is made of stainless steel. It is fully capable of holding itself open.



I have never seen that flat stuff you posted before. Mine's natural shape is round.

 

[boo boo]

As I said, supporting the braid is cheap peace of mind and has the added benefit of physically reinforcing it.
-Joe

My take also. I use a coiled piece of copper wire in mine to hold the shape.
Cheap peace of mind.

 

[DNW]

Sounds like braid <> BRAID

The braid is made of stainless steel. It is fully capable of holding itself open.

I have never seen that flat stuff you posted before. Mine's natural shape is round.

As I said, I think that for one thing we are talking about different products. Nevertheless, the braid I used was round when I started (taken off a plumbing piece) and it was flat when I finished.

When we start making absolute statements we can get into trouble.

 

[malkore]

I can tell you taht when I hit my braid with a spoon, it became creased and is still creased. The SS braid in your photo looks different than mine (and not just because yours is flattened).

I would wager that not all SS braids are created equally. mine is VERY stiff and if held vertically can support a lot of its own weight before it begins to curve. yours looks very soft and 'flowing' and not rigid like what both my MLT's use

 

[Coastarine]

I have been contemplating this for a while because I randomly get slow draining sometimes. I currently have a silicone tubing inside my braid but I realize now how soft it gets when it is hot. The idea of using a spring is brilliant. I love coming across tricks like that on this website. After a few years of being here it happens less and less, but I love that it still happens.

 

[wilserbrewer]

IMHO with the preferred type of braid, nothing is required to keep it open. I'm currently using what I believe to be a washing machine braid...a bit more stout than some...must admit I have been eyeing the water heater supply braids...they seem near bulletproof.

Of course, if you choose to use a "soft" braid that naturally has a flat form like Nostalgia, of course something inside will be required...but I ask, "why start w/ something that needs improving when there are other alternatives"?

 

[Coastarine]

The one I started with could hold itself open brand new, but after getting knocked around by my drill/paint stirrer a few dozen times it looks a little beat up. Once there was nothing inside it could stretch, which necks it down and makes it much less rigid. I just ordered parts to make a "T" version of nostalgia's braid for my rectangular MLT. Each end will have a female threaded hose barb fitting with a plug to weigh down the end and seal it off. That's what I had before but it wasn't a tee, it was just a 12" braid dangling around with a plug in the end.

 

[bendavanza]

I bought stainless wire at Ace Hardware, and coiled it around a sharpie to make a spring. It helps the braid keep it's shape and that helps it to not get crushed. Once i went with a rounder edged mash paddle, my braid has been getting less damaged. I used the smaller braid, so mine is more delicate than others.

 

[hopvine]

...With nothing to hold the braid open, only the first inch or so of the braid will be actually filtering the liquid, especially once the grain bed starts to compact...

The braid doesn't filter, that's what the grain bed is for. If the braid filtered, there would be no need for vorlaufing, but we've all seen the first couple quarts run cloudy and filled with grain particulate before the wort is adequately filtered by the grain bed. The braid is more like a strainer, holding large particulate (husks, etc.) from exiting the mash tun.

 

[rico567]

I got the large-diameter braid with the Bargain Fittings conversion. I've read that it's water heater line braid. It's about 9 inches long. It's been beaten up a bit in use, but I see no signs of degraded performance. the thing lauters like a storm drain.

 

[oldschool]

nostalgia, does your igloo leak heat like mad from the lid like mine does? I've been covering it up, but i think i really need to fill it with that spray foam stuff. also, i'm really paranoid about f-ing up my braid and keeping it on the bottom, although i have yet to have any trouble from it yet. but only stir once or twice during the mash.

 

[phatuna]

I am also a big proponent of using a stainless spring inside my braid. It makes perfect sence to me and since I have started using it, no worries. It costs about $.50 at any hardware store, why not??

I had a stuck runoff on my second ag attempt without the spring. I beat the hell out of the braid trying to break my mash up. After that, I found a thread that recommended the spring and have never looked back

 

[z987k]

No - I'm not saying "damaged", I'm saying "crushed" or "flattened" to the point that it will not provide a channel for clear wort.

If you pinch it flat with your fingers, does it spring back to round? In my mental experiment, the weight of the compacting grain bed flattens it out. When there is water in the mash (like during the protein rest noted above) there's no weight on the braid and it can naturally spring open.

Although for many stainless steel braids - like the one I originally used - flat is its natural state:

But like I said, I'm not claiming to be correct, this is just what I believe. The proof in the pudding is in the eating, as they say, so if it works for you, enjoy.

-Joe

I'd be willing to bet that SS braid of your is not SS. It looks a lot like the SS lookalike fiber braids that they put on hoses. The ends of your braid really give it away, it looks frayed. SS does not do that. SS also does not collapse under no weight.
I bought a hose like that once by mistake and it filtered like **** because the grainbed crushed it. I would bet a spring inside would help a lot.
However a real SS braid does not crush under the weight on the grains as if it did, it would stay somewhat deformed, just like if you bend a pipe, it does not spring back.

 

[Coastarine]

I'd be willing to bet that SS braid of your is not SS. It looks a lot like the SS lookalike fiber braids that they put on hoses. The ends of your braid really give it away, it looks frayed. SS does not do that. SS also does not collapse under no weight.
I bought a hose like that once by mistake and it filtered like **** because the grainbed crushed it. I would bet a spring inside would help a lot.
However a real SS braid does not crush under the weight on the grains as if it did, it would stay somewhat deformed, just like if you bend a pipe, it does not spring back.

You think mcmaster carr is lying about product 1478T3?

The wall thickness is only 0.010". It is made of very fine wires, but that doesn't mean that it isn't SS.

 

[nostalgia]

The ends of your braid really give it away, it looks frayed. SS does not do that. SS also does not collapse under no weight.

SS braid does do that. SS also can collapse under no weight, depending on the weave. The weave I originally used (in the photos) was made of a much finer stainless wire than the ones that usually sheathe plumbing hoses.

The heavy water heater hose sheath that I switched to later is made of a much heavier gauge wire in a looser weave. The ends still frayed in the same manner (and I had the puncture wounds to prove it) but it did keep its shape a lot better.

I still don't trust it under the weight of the compacted mash. And as I've said several times, that's just my opinion. The spring does more than just keep it from getting squished and it makes me happy. So it was worth the $4 for me.

-Joe