Am I becoming an AG Elitist?

[RLinNH]

So here I am, at a HERF (a gathering of Cigar Smokers where we Smoke, Eat, and Drink for the weekend). My buddy gave me a Pint of his Oatmeal Stout. Yup, it's a good beer. But, I could taste the Malt Extract Flavor to it. Keep in mind, I have been Brewing, Drinking, and surrounded by AG Beers now for going on a little over a year. I have not had an Extract beer in that time. Like I said above. Yup, good beer. But, I was thinking and still do, it would have Tasted better if it was an AG. Am I turning into an anal AG Elitist? Or maybe it's just this batch.

 

[DD2000GT]

You obviously have a refined taste for the difference between all grain and extract produced beers. As an extract/recent mini-mash kind of brewer - I have always wondered what that "extract taste" was as I have always had a "different" taste to my beers that I have tried for years to get rid of (different water, yeast, fermenting temps, sanitizer, etc.). It may just be the extract tast I am experiencing and I need to step it up to AG.

Can you explain that extract taste so I can see if this is the taste I am experiencing.

Thanks,
Dan

 

[Wables]

Yes, you are becoming an elitist.

I call it the extract twang. This is why I started AG. I originally thought it was from the corn sugar in bottling, but I think that it was from the extract. I don't have any extract brewing buddies any more, so I haven't sampled that taste in quite a while.

 

[RLinNH]

You obviously have a refined taste for the difference between all grain and extract produced beers. As an extract/recent mini-mash kind of brewer - I have always wondered what that "extract taste" was as I have always had a "different" taste to my beers that I have tried for years to get rid of (different water, yeast, fermenting temps, sanitizer, etc.). It may just be the extract tast I am experiencing and I need to step it up to AG.

Can you explain that extract taste so I can see if this is the taste I am experiencing.

Thanks,
Dan

Dan,

I just had another sample of the beer, and the only way I can explain it is it tastes like a watered down "Twang" to it. Very Unlike an AG. Sorry, but that's all I can come up with. BTW, this is a kegged batch.

 

[RLinNH]

ALso, as a NOTE. This is in no way a Shot to Extract Brewers. If is nothing more then an inquiry to the topic. Just wanted to see if it was just me, or if others are having/had had the same experience.

 

[mew]

I don't think all extract beers have the twang. In the ones that have the twang, it is due to old ingredients. So, you are not being elitist by noticing a flaw in a beer that comes from the extract. If, however, you appropriate that flaw to all extract beers then yes, you are an AG fat cat.

 

[Mutilated1]

I taste the extract 'twang' with some extract beers, but certainly not all.

Make an AG Lager and Mash at too high a temp and you'll taste practically the same thing.

I'm not sure what exactly causes it though. Someone told me it was parts of the wort that didn't ferment or something like that, sorry thats my dumbed down version as I maybe misunderstood it when I was drinking...

You can definitely make extract beer without it though.

 

[RLinNH]

I don't think all extract beers have the twang. In the ones that have the twang, it is due to old ingredients. So, you are not being elitist by noticing a flaw in a beer that comes from the extract. If, however, you appropriate that flaw to all extract beers then yes, you are an AG fat cat.

Very good point mew.

 

[BoxofRain]

What does this elusive twang taste like?

 

[WBC]

I do not think you are any "LABEL" if you like good things. I have tried all kinds of brewing and just like cooking, the results you get is directly proportional to your effort and quality of the ingrediants you use. If you heat a can of condensed soup rather that cutting up fresh ingredients and using fresh spices then the result will speak for itself. If you do not want to put much effort or money into brewing then you can not expect your beer to be as good as someone who does it the hard way.

 

[RLinNH]

So along comes Jim, with his 5 year old Partial Mash Trappist Brown. This beer solidifies my point. This beer is every Bit as good as any AG that I have ever had. Matter of fact, it's the best Belbian Beer I have ever had. Very Drinkable, Smooth, and loaded with flavor. No Extract Flavor waht so ever. Damned fine Extract beer!!!

 

[DD2000GT]

Dan,

I just had another sample of the beer, and the only way I can explain it is it tastes like a watered down "Twang" to it. Very Unlike an AG. Sorry, but that's all I can come up with. BTW, this is a kegged batch.

This is exactly what mine taste like. I guess I am going to have to upgrade to AG because I hate that "off" taste. One more question - is canned kits worse or the same as quality extract kits (like from Williams or AHS) on this "tang"? I am not sure this is with ALL extract brewing or just ones with older or canned (contact w/ metal) kits. Also - is it the same with DME and LME?

I really like the convenience of extract brewing, but have only used the LME at my LHBS. I just did a mini-mash kit from AHS for the first time, and that was not too hard - but it came with extract as well.

Thanks again,
Dan

 

[Bobby_M]

I think the correlation between twang and extract beers is simply due to the likelihood of those beers being brewed by a novice. I think if I were to brew an extract batch right now that it would be devoid of it.

 

[DD2000GT]

I think the correlation between twang and extract beers is simply due to the likelihood of those beers being brewed by a novice. I think if I were to brew an extract batch right now that it would be devoid of it.

Can you elaborate? Are you saying there are techniques that can reduce or eliminate extract twang? If so - what are those techniques?

 

[the_bird]

I think the correlation between twang and extract beers is simply due to the likelihood of those beers being brewed by a novice. I think if I were to brew an extract batch right now that it would be devoid of it.

The other theory I've heard posited (and that makes a lot of sense to me) is that it has to do mostly with using older, canned LME that's gone a bit stale/oxidized. I'm curious whether there's a correlation between extract twang and the use of DME versus LME, and the freshness of that LME.

 

[eddie]

What does this elusive twang taste like?

It's a slightly astringent and metallic taste that comes through in the background of some extract brews.

 

[Saccharomyces]

I have done an extract kit lager and two partial mashes and nothing wrong with them. Also many homebrewers in the club do extract or PM and their beers are quite good, many better than mine. Fresh ingredients and a dialed in process can make good beers with extract or AG.

 

[fratermus]

My buddy gave me a Pint of his Oatmeal Stout. Yup, it's a good beer. But, I could taste the Malt Extract Flavor to it.

My understanding is that twang, if present, is due more to past-its-prime extract rather than from extract per se.

 

[fratermus]

I think the correlation between twang and extract beers is simply due to the likelihood of those beers being brewed by a novice.

An excellent point.

 

[rabidgerbil]

Fresh ingredients and a dialed in process can make good beers with extract or AG.

Good point. There are commercial breweries out there using extract, and not only selling good product, but winning awards with it. I remember hearing an interview on The Brewing Network, with a commercial brewer that brews extract, and brews very good beers, but he is also very particular about the quality of the ingredients he uses.

 

[Pabst Blue Robot]

What does this elusive twang taste like?

Salty milk and coins.

 

[Bobby_M]

Can you elaborate? Are you saying there are techniques that can reduce or eliminate extract twang? If so - what are those techniques?

I have no idea what each of the contributors might be but I pick up off flavors in almost every extract beer I've tasted. The thing is, those beers are always made by someone who's on batch number 5 or so. I've had extract beers that I have mistook for all grain but I come to find they were made by someone who's been brewing extract for 2 years or more.

Think about it, novices will most likely: mishandle hot wort, have poor sanitizing understanding, tiny partial boils, slow chilling, tainted top off water, HOT fermentations, underpitch yeast, under aerate, poor post ferment transfers, etc.

My first few extract batches tasted like dog vomit in retrospect.

 

[SILVER13ACK]

Did you know it was an extract beer before you drank it? It could be your mind playing games.

 

[GIusedtoBe]

I've only brewed quite a few extract beers that are very good but the limitation IMO has been the malty taste that is so much dependant on the extract. An extract IPA I did is better than most commercial versions IMO w/ the exceptions of a few super IPA's like Stone and Dogfish Head.

Unfortunately I still haven't gotten to try the fruits of my recent AG conversion (4 batches in the pipeline) but I'm afraid I might have the same learning curve w/ AG that I had w/ extract.

I also think under utlization of hops has been a problem w/ some of my extract beers or maybe the hoppy brews I made covered the extract flavor.

My AG brews have tasted awesome so far in the hydrometer samples but the jury is obviously still out on them. I don't think i will go back to extract though because AG is much more fun even w/ the additional work. I am enjoying coming up w/ my own recipes etc.

So I guess I have become an AG snob who has never even tried a finished AG homebrew.

Cheers
Al

 

[artbrewer]

in my short experience with both ag and extract i find that extract brews are always too dark and heavy...also have that twang...the ag brews which i made after only 3 extract kits were nice and light in color and the flavor is cleaner and fresher

 

[hoss75]

I would say that poorly brewed extract beers have that twang, but it it usually comes down to improper fermentation techniques. Some of the best beers I've had were extract or partial mash. I enjoy AG brewing, alot, but it definitely isn't the holy grail people make it out to be.

 

[Gordie]

Not an eliteist - just a discriminating palate and a sharp brewer. The "twang", as mentioned above, is a flaw. Noticing it doesn't mean anything beyond the fact that you know enough to identify a problem and also its solution.

That makes you a valuable resource for the fella who brewed it...

 

[Aubie Stout]

I brewed (5) extract batches that all had a "twang". It drove me to all grain and I've never had the same problem since.....

 

[Anbrew]

When I switched to AG I didn't notice a real dramatic difference in quality, not at all like some were claiming I would. Similar to what others in this thread are saying, I think often extract beers are made by inexperienced brewers. I find that often they are under-attenuated. (many inexperienced extract brewers don't make starters, aerate, etc.)

I do think that you can definitely make world-class beer with extract.

 

[jcarson83]

After reading all the posts I still have no idea what the extract twang is. If its just a metallic taste I would attribute this to an infection more than a extract specific trait. I too didn't notice a difference between extract and AG immediately after I switched. I think other techniques have more to do with the quality of the brew other than AG. I like AG and haven't done an extract batch in quite awhile but that's just because I don't really have a reason to. I don't really care about how long it takes to brew because I enjoy it and I don't need to increase my supply because if I run out of home brew I'll just buy some commercial good beer.

 

[Junebug]

I can detect the extract "twang" in all of my previous brews. They weren't bad, but I could always pick up on a syrupy flavor. Today, I brewed my very first all-grain, in the hopes that I will ditch this "twang". Things went a bit slow, but this was my very first attempt. If this beer (Christmas Ale) turns out o.k., I will never brew an extract beer again.

 

[billtzk]

I'm with WBC on this. I don't think there is anything elitist about preferring the highest quality food and drink. Hedonist maybe, but not elitist. And your HERF sounds a bit Hedonistic to me. Bravo!


I can identify the extract twang (sort of a flat, canned, prepared-food flavor) in many brew-pub beers. I'm not a fan. It's like the difference between Chef Boy-R-Dee Ravioli and a homemade ravioli made from scratch.

 

[carl spakler]

Unless you grow your own hops and grain as well as culture your own yeast you are just choosing your own line in the sand to make yourself feel superior to others IMO.

A well made beer with fresh ingredients tastes good, a poorly made beer with old ingredients likely won't.

Calling yourself and elitist is like being proud of being a snob that looks down upon anyone not up to your standards.

 

[zoebisch01]

Of course you are. It's like gravity.

 

[TeleTwanger]

My extract batches were about as good as my all grains, no twang. But, I would do mini-mashes with like 6 lbs of grain. If you add the dme late in the boil you get similar hop U.

 

[RIBeer]

I stepped up to all-grain several batches ago and, while still a complete novice, have noticed a general overall improvement in my brews. My brew buddy and I did an extract batch a while back that used canned extract - it has that extract "twang", but none of the extract kits we purchased from our esteemed host resulted in a twang. I have to concur that it seems to come from canned extract, as it certainly is slightly metallic.

 

[carl spakler]

I would love to see a double blind taste test of beers brewed by experience brewers and see how this truly turns out. My belief is that the placebo effect is stronger than reality here.

 

[FireBrewer]

Not an eliteist - just a discriminating palate and a sharp brewer. The "twang", as mentioned above, is a flaw. Noticing it doesn't mean anything beyond the fact that you know enough to identify a problem and also its solution.

+1. Your palate is improving and you're recognizing flaws, flavors, etc. Nothing more.