Long story short I've been battling against extremely poor head retention since i started brewing (almost 4 years now). Tried different mash tecniques, protein rests, grain bills, thoughts and prayers and so far had no luck. Yesterday I was browsing a few threads in this section and saw a few discussions about oxiclean, someone mentioned it could negatively impact head retention. The thing is that I've been using various oxi-something (different brands of "Sodium carbonate peroxyhydrate" - CAS 15630-89-4) as my NO-RINSE sanitizer for my whole (brewing) life because it was recommended in my first brewing kit. Could this be it?
Am I a *******?
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McKnuckle
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Oxiclean is a detergent, not a sanitizer, and it does need to be rinsed.
As for the original question; we all are, sometimes.
Definitely use StarSan for sanitizing, tried and true, and no rinse required (or desired). You can clean with other stuff, but rinse it very well. I use hot water only unless the surface is impossible to reach, then I use a PBW soak, followed by a good rinse in fresh water.
As for the original question; we all are, sometimes.
Definitely use StarSan for sanitizing, tried and true, and no rinse required (or desired). You can clean with other stuff, but rinse it very well. I use hot water only unless the surface is impossible to reach, then I use a PBW soak, followed by a good rinse in fresh water.
Does it affect head retention?
doogie
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It's not something that people try to put in their wort/beer, but I would suspect that it would negatively impact head retention since most cleaners reduce the surface tension of the fluid to allow for better cleaning.
HobbitBeer
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Make sure you're rinsing the Oxi-clean off, that might be the issue, though I imagine you would have noticed other issues with your beer as well. I use PBW which is essentially the same thing as Oxi-clean; hit my gear with 130 degree water, let it sit for 30, and rinse well with the same temp water until the surface is no longer slick. If you can share the actual detergent you're using we might be able to better assist.
In terms of head retention, do you use soap on any of your gear? There are several ways to diminish the head forming ability of your beer, and one of them is soap - never let it touch anything you brew with.
How heavy do you dry hop? Heavy dry hopping is also associated with low-foam/head retention.
In terms of head retention, do you use soap on any of your gear? There are several ways to diminish the head forming ability of your beer, and one of them is soap - never let it touch anything you brew with.
How heavy do you dry hop? Heavy dry hopping is also associated with low-foam/head retention.
What @McKnuckle said ^
You're not in the U.S. where Starsan is probably the sanitizer of choice, but Iodine (Povidone) based ones have a good following too.
==> Perhaps you can add your country to your user profile, that helps others with giving more to the point advice. Thanks in advance!
Can you get StarSan (produced by "Five Star") or a similar product?
Oxiclean is very good for cleaning brewery equipment. It's highly alkaline and needs to be rinsed off. Then a no-rinse sanitizer should be applied, ideally.
Sadly, brewing kit instructions tend to be more miss than hit, with outdated and bad practices. Instructions for sanitation, and the use of secondaries after xx days are some of the most notorious and persistent.
You're not in the U.S. where Starsan is probably the sanitizer of choice, but Iodine (Povidone) based ones have a good following too.
==> Perhaps you can add your country to your user profile, that helps others with giving more to the point advice. Thanks in advance!
Can you get StarSan (produced by "Five Star") or a similar product?
Oxiclean is very good for cleaning brewery equipment. It's highly alkaline and needs to be rinsed off. Then a no-rinse sanitizer should be applied, ideally.
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Protein/beta glucan rests that last too long can ruin foam stability later on. 10-15' is about the max.
Unless you're using a large % of wheat, rye, unmalted flaked products, etc., beta-glucan/protein rests are generally not needed.
Unless you're using a large % of wheat, rye, unmalted flaked products, etc., beta-glucan/protein rests are generally not needed.
Only unscented to clean after brew day, then i rinse a couple of times.
Already ordered. A bit pricey but consensus here is that it's worth every penny.
Started with 30'+ following the "longer must be better" idea, not sure where that came from. Now I usually do 10' @55°C(130°F)
Thank you all, there's always something new to learn!
Look on the container of your Oxi-whatever cleaner if there are any other products in there, like (synthetic) soaps.
Here in the U.S. branded Oxiclean Free (as well as most generic brands) contain Sodium Carbonate (washing soda) and Sodium Percarbonate (which looks like it's the same as the "Sodium carbonate peroxyhydrate," you quoted, just with a different name).
Here in the U.S. branded Oxiclean Free (as well as most generic brands) contain Sodium Carbonate (washing soda) and Sodium Percarbonate (which looks like it's the same as the "Sodium carbonate peroxyhydrate," you quoted, just with a different name).
HobbitBeer
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I would not use soap on anything you brew with. Most soaps are oil based and oil can cause beer to have very poor foam retention. With PBW or Oxi-clean, it's doing everything the soap would be doing, but more, and better.
I used to use soap on all of my gear, and I do mean all. I was talking to my LHBS folks one day about it, and they recommended a deep soak in PBW, and never using soap on my gear again. Since then I haven't had any issues. For my brew kettle and mash tun, I rinse with warm water and wipe down with a hand towel, and then I hit them with starsan. After every completed brew or tapped keg, I fill up my fermenters and kegs with PBW, drain, rinse, starsan, and seal - the vessel is cleaned and sanitized for the next use, whenever that might be.
Yeah, it's pricey. Make sure you store the bottle upright, the lid tends to leak or even worse, split around the top.
You don't need to make buckets full of it, 2-3 liters of working solution is plenty. Also pour some in a spray bottle. Very handy to sanitize around lids and airlocks, etc. Even when sanitizing bottles, just fill a few bottles and a minute later, pour into the next ones, etc.
- Use soft water to make your Starsan solution.
- Use a (small) washcloth soaked in it to mop onto larger objects' surfaces, rather than fill fermenters, etc.
- The working solution can last weeks, months even. Even if it gets cloudy it keeps working fine.
- With a 1 cm snippet of some multi-range litmus paper you can periodically verify the pH remains under 3.0.
McKnuckle
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[Edit: Literally typing at the same time as @IslandLizard !]
It lasts a very long time. Mix up a bucket's worth of StarSan solution according to the bottle's instructions. Use distilled or RO water if you can. Keep the bucket covered in your brew area.
Since you only sanitize clean surfaces to begin with, you can dip things like tubing or fittings into the bucket to sanitize them. You can let things soak for a few minutes while you do other tasks. To sanitize vessels, remove a cup or a pint, slosh it around the vessel to cover all surfaces, and dump it right back into the bucket. There's rarely a need to discard it.
Eventually (couple months or more?) you'll see some crud in the bottom of your bucket, or the StarSan will get cloudy, and that's the time for a refresher.
I am still on my original StarSan bottle purchased 7 years ago.
Not necessarily...
Light cloudiness does not seem to harm it, and using soft water (or RO water) helps prevent it mostly.
If after a week or 2 a grayish crud layer has settled on the bottom, you can decant (carefully pour, without tilting back until finished) the clear sanitizer above the crud into another container, leaving the gray crud behind.
McKnuckle
Well-Known Member
I think we've made our point that the stuff basically lasts forever.
When making smaller volumes of working solution, use a (small) syringe to measure out the 1.5 ml / liter. Then rinse the syringe out well in your container with solution.
(i skipped a bit)
Do a double pour, pour fast to get foam to the top. then pour slow when it calms down a bit to stabilize the proteins. you'll get that head that's hard as rock over the rim of the glass....
(if you like that sorta thing, personally i just like a dusting
)
Do a double pour, pour fast to get foam to the top. then pour slow when it calms down a bit to stabilize the proteins. you'll get that head that's hard as rock over the rim of the glass....
(if you like that sorta thing, personally i just like a dusting
)
Head retention... How are you cleaning your beer drinking glasses? If in a dishwasher are you using a rinse agent?
Do you get good head retention with commercial beer but not homebrew? How about other people's homebrew?
If you are bottling also look at how are you cleaning your bottles...
Do you get good head retention with commercial beer but not homebrew? How about other people's homebrew?
If you are bottling also look at how are you cleaning your bottles...
Unscented soap so far, then rinse a couple times with hot water, the retention has been low for all beer except german lagers which I drink out of a
Hofbräuhaus München mug that I clean with only very hot water. I guess you are on to something...
MAybe you need to look at your grain bill? I used to have this issue and after doing some research I started adding a couple of pounds of carpils to every 5 gallon brew. It made all the difference in the world.
As eric19312 Brought up, check into you drinking glass. If you still leave small trace of the soaps in the glass it will kill the head. I was having a similar issue, was driving me nuts, till one day I ended up using 2 different glasses, the head retention was different in both glasses. I would suggest using your mug, just once to verify it’s a glass or not. If you get the head you like, then you will know for sure what the issue is. If the head is still the same, then you need to investigate other avenues.
I don't think is a grain bill issue since the I encountered the problem with many commercial "big head" beers. I'll try the carapils, anything that helps is welcome!
I have pretty similar results with my homebrews but longer retention than the glass with bought beers, I always assumed it was due to the different size and shape of the mug. The difference was much less present with my own beer, that's why I started this thread talking about leaving oxiclean in the bottles.
Maybe try the German lager in a beer glass washed with soap and water to see if it makes any difference.
I usually share bottles with my brother, he usually drinks out of a glass that we wash with unscented soap and then rinse with hot water. The glass is very narrow, close to a Stange, I'll have to find a glass closer to the mug shape for a proper comparison.
Under carbonated beer
Don't think so. I brewed a lot of weizens and had even a few gushers on my early brews, the foam just fell flat after 30'' with a lot of dissolved CO2 still in the beer.
Maybe something in the water chemistry?
HobbitBeer
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It definitely seems more like a procedural mistake than anything. I've been brewing for 15 years, and this problem plagued me for the first 5 because I used soap on everything. To this day, my first inclination is to lather all of my gear up, but you gotta trust in the bubbling vat of acid (PBW) and the crazy foam (Starsan).
If after your next batch you're still missing some delicious foamy goodness, there are two other things you can try.
1) Fermcap-S. I have a smaller kettle, and this allows me to do a full boil without boilover. You can add this to both your boil and fermentation, and it will result in far, far, far less krausen than you're used to. They say that this helps retain proteins vital to head retention that are otherwise blown off during fermentation. It's cheap and useful, might be worth giving a shot if nixing soap doesn't help.
2) Oats, Wheat, and Carafoam. I use White Wheat or Oats in almost every single one of my beers, often times both. (2lbs oats + 1lb white wheat in NEIPAs, reverse for a hazy IPA, 2lbs white wheat for normal IPA etc...). Carafoam is also helpful for adding body and foam retention, but prefer to use oats or wheat in my grist as a personal preference.
Good luck!
I think so too. I have a fresh batch of pale ale almost ready to bottle, maybe this weekend or next week, we'll see how it goes!
I use tap water, fairly low on minerals, with some gypsum and calcuim chloride additions if I need to tweak the sulfate/chloride ratio, calculated with BeerSmith. It's quite low on magnesium but other than that it should be ok.
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