Alternative to London Ale III

[Brewddah]

I am tired of Wyeast London Ale III quitting on me. Last two times I've used it, it gets stuck at ~1.024 or so and will not budge, even if I raise the fermentation temperature. The most recent time I used it, I made a 2L starter with another 2L step up, with a final pitch rate of ~1.7 Million cells/mL/P. Again, it quit at 1.025. I like the mild esters and flavor from this yeast, but I'm tired of having to send in US-05 to the rescue. Any recommendations?

 

[Biscuits]

Doesn't sound like it's a yeast problem.

 

[Brewddah]

It is specific to this strain. I never have stuck fermentations with anything else. I'm also mashing at 150F, so that's not the issue either.

 

[waldoar15]

You could try 002. I use it in my ESB and it's never stuck on me, but it's highly flocculent. I give it a swirl a couple of times a day to keep it in suspension.

Or try one of the drier English Ale strains.

 

[BucksIPA]

Wlp028 , 1084

 

[Comfort_Zone]

Depending on the beer, you could use some variant of Conan. I've had decent luck with those. Otherwise, WLP002 is a solid yeast.

 

[thehaze]

WLP095 or RVA 132 Manchester Ale.

Regarding 1318: I never had the problems you are facing. 1318 will ferment nicely in 3-4 days, even when mashed at 154F ( NEIPA ). It usually gets me 74-77% attenuation, and that is awesome for an English yeast strain.

 

[Brewddah]

WLP095 or RVA 132 Manchester Ale.

Regarding 1318: I never had the problems you are facing. 1318 will ferment nicely in 3-4 days, even when mashed at 154F ( NEIPA ). It usually gets me 74-77% attenuation, and that is awesome for an English yeast strain.

The weird thing is, 1318 didn't always have this attenuation problem for me. Last three batches have been problematic, and it's generally the same recipe each time. Before that, it finished 1.015-1.017.

 

[day_trippr]

I have not had a similar problem with 1318, it's been a steady finisher all along. I agree there's something out of the norm going on but without seeing an example of a problematic recipe there's not much I could add to that.

I've been trialing Imperial A38 against 1318 to see how it works as I'm a fan of the Imperial strains I've used. I split last week's Julius clone between them and again with this weekend's experimental neipa.
Perhaps that might be worth a try...

Cheers!

 

[Brewddah]

I have not had a similar problem with 1318, it's been a steady finisher all along. I agree there's something out of the norm going on but without seeing an example of a problematic recipe there's not much I could add to that.

I've been trialing Imperial A38 against 1318 to see how it works as I'm a fan of the Imperial strains I've used. I split last week's Julius clone between them and again with this weekend's experimental neipa.
Perhaps that might be worth a try...

Cheers!

Could the alcohol tolerance of this yeast be the issue? The OG has been 1.070 these last two batches. Grain bill was 10# golden promise, 1# Munich, and 1# flaked oats. Mashed at 150F, with 5.5 mL lactic acid. I have used this grain bill, and ones like it, without much issue.

 

[day_trippr]

No, that's not it. The Julius clone OG is 1.073 and has alway finished within a point of 1.013 with 1318.
Your mash temperature is similar, and your grain bill is much more similar than different.
On top of that, that 1.7M/ml/°P rate is crazy high - I aim for .75M - so it sure as heck isn't the pitch rate.
I dunno, running out of ideas pretty quickly here...

Cheers!

 

[Comfort_Zone]

Alcohol tolerance shouldn't be much of an issue. Most strains can hit 12% without much trouble. I'm wondering if they're having quality control issues. Try Imperial A38 Juice. Never had a problem with any of their strains.

 

[ba-brewer]

The weird thing is, 1318 didn't always have this attenuation problem for me. Last three batches have been problematic, and it's generally the same recipe each time. Before that, it finished 1.015-1.017.

Were the last three batches from different pouches or all from the same pouch(repitched yeast to all 3 batches)?

If you repitched enough times maybe you selected the most flocculent yeast some how. I have gotten pouches of wyeast ESB yeast WY1968 that attenuated in the mid 70 and other that attenuated to the mid 60s. Some yeast do better on repitches than they do the first time from a starter.

wyeast has the flocculation class as high for 1318, high flocculators can drop like a rock at times and need to be coaxed back into suspension to finish. It is best to start rising temp before they drop/stop. It takes a while for CO2 to come out of suspension so if you change the temp when you see less airlock activity the yeast had already been slowing down for a while.

 

[Queequeg]

If your pitch at 1.7 it could be pitch rate. In theory you are getting much less growth during the growth phase meaning a suboptimal parent to daughter cell ratio. As such the same cells which fermented your starter are also having to ferment the whole batch.

Do a quick Google, under attenuation is definitely associated with over pitching.

 

[Miraculix]

If your pitch at 1.7 it could be pitch rate. In theory you are getting much less growth during the growth phase meaning a suboptimal parent to daughter cell ratio. As such the same cells which fermented your starter are also having to ferment the whole batch.

Do a quick Google, under attenuation is definitely associated with over pitching.

Interesting thought, never heard of it.

 

[Brewddah]

Never heard of that either. However, it did the same thing at 0.75M in a previous batch.

 

[Brewddah]

Were the last three batches from different pouches or all from the same pouch(repitched yeast to all 3 batches)?

If you repitched enough times maybe you selected the most flocculent yeast some how. I have gotten pouches of wyeast ESB yeast WY1968 that attenuated in the mid 70 and other that attenuated to the mid 60s. Some yeast do better on repitches than they do the first time from a starter.

wyeast has the flocculation class as high for 1318, high flocculators can drop like a rock at times and need to be coaxed back into suspension to finish. It is best to start rising temp before they drop/stop. It takes a while for CO2 to come out of suspension so if you change the temp when you see less airlock activity the yeast had already been slowing down for a while.

They were different pouches. I did see the airlock activity basically stop after four days on this last one. I was fermenting at 67F. I usually raise the temperature after 1 week. Maybe I should do it sooner?

 

[ESBrewer]

No point discussing the yeast or assumed stuck fermentation without discussing the recipe. There should be nothing wrong with this strain in general. It is expected to leave more residual sweetness than us-05.

 

[Brewddah]

Mentioned in a previous post in this thread, but I used #10 golden promise, 1# munich, and #1 flaked oats. Mashed at 150F.

 

[ba-brewer]

They were different pouches. I did see the airlock activity basically stop after four days on this last one. I was fermenting at 67F. I usually raise the temperature after 1 week. Maybe I should do it sooner?

I start bumping the temp a few (2 or 3)degrees Fahrenheit on day 3 or 4, then another couple more degrees a couple days later.

Looking back at your first post you said you did two 2L starter. If you crashed the yeast between the first and second step and the beer was not really clear when you decanted the beer you might have selected only the most flocculent yeast. If your yeast was 50% viable a single 2L starter could of got you more than enough yeast for 5gal of 1070 wort.

If I do a multi step starter I like to do it in a way that the last step has a growth greater than 2. I also don't crash just dump one step into the next and only crash after the last step.

 

[CKelly]

As people have said, any variant of Conan will do you well. I've also made some good stuff with WLP008 (East Coast Ale)

 

[thehaze]

1318 will ferment in like 3-4 days and it will be done. 1318 also likes higher fermentation temperatures and it handles them much better than other " IPA/clean " yeast strains, resulting in a very pleasent ester profile, with no fusels, etc.

The latest IPA I made with 1318 had an OG of 1.060 and FG was 1.013, resulting in 77% attenuation. The mash. temp was 68C/154.4F for 90 minutes. Grain bill included pale malt, flaked barley, oats and wheat, and Golden Naked Oats.

1318 usually gets me between 74 and 77% attenuation and this is with no sugar, nor very low mash. temp.

 

[ESBrewer]

64-65% attenuation is very low for this yeast. I feel that there is something suboptimal in the mash. The grain bill itself seems to be fine. Oats could leave starchy compounds and you could mash them a bit longer like thehaze did above. Using smaller flakes / instant type ('1min' etc) flakes could also be more effective. Also, I would check that the actual mash pH is pH5.2-pH5.5 and that the enzymatically active GP and münich are carefully milled so that they release enzymes effectively. Always good to check if the thermometer works as expected, especially when mashing rather low. How much further did it attenuate when you pitched US-05 to rescue?

 

[Brewddah]

64-65% attenuation is very low for this yeast. I feel that there is something suboptimal in the mash. The grain bill itself seems to be fine. Oats could leave starchy compounds and you could mash them a bit longer like thehaze did above. Using smaller flakes / instant type ('1min' etc) flakes could also be more effective. Also, I would check that the actual mash pH is pH5.2-pH5.5 and that the enzymatically active GP and münich are carefully milled so that they release enzymes effectively. Always good to check if the thermometer works as expected, especially when mashing rather low. How much further did it attenuate when you pitched US-05 to rescue?

I use flaked oats in other recipes with different yeast and never have any trouble. My mash pH was 5.2 both times. US-05 took it to 1.010, like it always does when I use it on its own.

 

[ESBrewer]

Not sure what is going on here. I think it should go down to 17 or something cause us-05 behaves as expected. Is it a fresh vial or did you culture/top crop it before you made the starter? 1968 would be one alternative, or 1469.

 

[Brewddah]

Not sure what is going on here. I think it should go down to 17 or something cause us-05 behaves as expected. Is it a fresh vial or did you culture/top crop it before you made the starter? 1968 would be one alternative, or 1469.

This most recent time, it was a two week old smack pack. I don't remember how old the one before that was.

 

[thehaze]

I have used 2 months old Wyeast packs and they worked fine.

Maybe you are inhibiting the yeast with your fermentation temp./schedule?

What you have experienced is pretty weird and more weird is the fact that it happened more than once, so it could easily be something in your process, that is causing the low attenuation.

 

[ba-brewer]

Hard to say why your last few batches came different from previous batches, but yeast is an organic produce so some variations is possible.

Different company, but whitelabs has a database of fermentation results for beer brewed for the taproom. They don't provide a lot of information about the brews so I don't know how useful it really is, but some yeast have pretty wide range of attenuations for similar beer types. Normally they seem to attenuate over the published numbers but some are lower. I was recently looking at WLP041 Pacific ale yeast in the database and some brews were in the mid 60s and others up close to 80%. I would think that yeast might be suitable for a NEIPA. ​

One other thing to look at is some English yeasts need plenty of oxygen to preform well. I don't know how to tell which one are which but those strains seem to need be treated like lager yeasts and benefit from a shot of pure O2.

 

[Brewddah]

I usually ferment at 67 and then raise to 70 after a week. This worked in the past with this yeast. The last three batches have been problematic. I need to brew this again with different yeast and see what happens. If it doesn't get stuck, I'll know that it's 1318 to blame. If it does, perhaps I am screwing up somewhere.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I was recently looking at WLP041 Pacific ale yeast in the database and some brews were in the mid 60s and others up close to 80%. I would think that yeast might be suitable for a NEIPA.

Bit of a sore point that, I've just managed to order WLP041 by accident, when I meant WLP051... :-( There's logic in trying it for a NEIPA though, as it seems to be the closest US relative to Fuller's/Whitbread B, which in turn seems to be related to Conan.