Alternative Brewing

[wildwest450]

Does this paragraph make anyone else laugh?

It's alternative brewing, man!


_

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

It is already apparent to any new people reading this, but to add my two cents...

Alter is basically just a cavalier brewer. Not measuring stuff or taking into account the scientific aspects of brewing is not revolutionary. Most people who have been brewing for a long time have had one too many early int he brew day then said 'screw it' and not measured anything and cut all the corners. That has been happening since antiquity. To claim it as a progressive brewing style is a bit off.

BIAB works. So does no chill. They are both fine techniques. A 30 minute mash is fine too, if you are happy with the fermentation profile after 30 minutes, then that is great. Simplifying a brew day is a great thing, but your process isn't much simpler than a standard brew day and would only save about 45 minutes to an hour from my brew day.

The biggest difference between "conventional" brewer and the ideas described here are that you do not control your product. That is fine, but anyone new enough to be considering these ideas should know that is not the best way to get a quality product on a consistent basis.

Also, anecdotal evidence on the internet is worth about and much as my pile of wooden nickels. If long standing scientific evidence shows that oxidation is a major issue to the stability and quality of beer and has a significant contribution to a beers flavor, do you really think I should listen to you when you say "I have tasted no difference"? I myself do detect oxidation in my beers and other commercial beers that have been not been as badly mishandled as yours.

Not to go off and be a jerk, but touting your alternative brewing style is crazy talk. Many of the practices you discuss have been used to great effect for quite some time, but they should not be used cavalierly and be expected to produce consistent and quality results.

 

[AlterBrewer]

Does this paragraph make anyone else laugh?

Airborne:

Out of all the people, I think you have enjoyed my thread the most!

 

[Airborneguy]

I totally have.

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

Its not because you are new man, it is because you are preaching a number of very bad practices mixed in with many well accepted practices and claiming the whole thing as some kind of movement.

Brew how you want, but anyone who makes claims like you have in this thread is going to come under fire to protect those who may not know that a lot of your ideas are not good.

 

[BrewKnurd]

I think you're nitpicking just because I'm new here, and somehow you construe my intentions as being some kind of pioneer. Not the case, just thought it might be interesting to share my experiences.

If you're wondering why people "construe your intentions as being some kind of pioneer", consider the following:

Maybe, like me, you have even busted a brewing myth or two!

I have developed my own methods that make brewing more effortless and efficient.

I'm sure what I'm going to publish below will be pure beer heresy to most

Those statements certainly sound like someone claiming to be a pioneer. I only point this out because if you really want to understand why you are getting the responses you are getting, statements like the above are part of the reason.

 

[Revvy]

If you're wondering why people "construe your intentions as being some kind of pioneer", consider the following:


Those statements certainly sound like someone claiming to be a pioneer. I only point this out because if you really want to understand why you are getting the responses you are getting, statements like the above are part of the reason.

WOOT WOOT, we have a winner!!!!!!!

I especially love the mythbusting one, since this place has probably busted so many brewing myths that even Adam and Jamie have learned a thing or three about autolysis, hsa, aluminum, yadda yadda yadda, from us....

 

[AlterBrewer]

It is already apparent to any new people reading this, but to add my two cents...

Alter is basically just a cavalier brewer. Not measuring stuff or taking into account the scientific aspects of brewing is not revolutionary. Most people who have been brewing for a long time have had one too many early int he brew day then said 'screw it' and not measured anything and cut all the corners. That has been happening since antiquity. To claim it as a progressive brewing style is a bit off.

BIAB works. So does no chill. They are both fine techniques. A 30 minute mash is fine too, if you are happy with the fermentation profile after 30 minutes, then that is great. Simplifying a brew day is a great thing, but your process isn't much simpler than a standard brew day and would only save about 45 minutes to an hour from my brew day.

The biggest difference between "conventional" brewer and the ideas described here are that you do not control your product. That is fine, but anyone new enough to be considering these ideas should know that is not the best way to get a quality product on a consistent basis.

Also, anecdotal evidence on the internet is worth about and much as my pile of wooden nickels. If long standing scientific evidence shows that oxidation is a major issue to the stability and quality of beer and has a significant contribution to a beers flavor, do you really think I should listen to you when you say "I have tasted no difference"? I myself do detect oxidation in my beers and other commercial beers that have been not been as badly mishandled as yours.

Not to go off and be a jerk, but touting your alternative brewing style is crazy talk. Many of the practices you discuss have been used to great effect for quite some time, but they should not be used cavalierly and be expected to produce consistent and quality results.

Yes, oxidation is a real issue, but do you really get it pre-bottling? Could it be that the yeast take care of the oxygen while the bottles are carbonating?

If anyone knows the answer for sure, then input, I'm here to learn. I just haven't noticed any difference in taste from pouring vs siphoning (so far).

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

Yes, any exposure to oxygen after the first 5-15ish hours of fermentation (this depends on factors such as the original gravity of the beer) in which the yeast are building cell walls and multiplying will react with the beer to form generally undesirable flavor compounds and "oxidize" the beer. During active fermentation the yeast does have some ability to absorb some oxygen, and to "scrub out" some level of oxygen via the motion of CO2 exiting the beer. However, after primary fermentation any exposure to oxygen will have a permanent effect on the oxidation level of the beer.

Pouring your beer will introduce a large amount of oxygen into the beer. Perhaps you enjoy the oxidized flavors this produces (a serious option) and think this enhances your beers. Or, like you stated, perhaps you are drinking all your beer fresh enough for oxidation to not fully affect the beer. That is fine and works great. However, stating that pouring your beer around all higgldy piggly will have no affect on oxidation levels is just factually inaccurate.

Any book with any level of in depth fermentation analysis will explain these concepts in more detail and more eloquently than I have here.

Do you do this because the bottling wand is too expensive ($1.50)? Even a bottling wand does not completely protect your beer for oxygen contact, but it is miles ahead of pouring your beer around post fermentation. I just don't understand this idea.

The micro fermentation that occurs in the bottle does not absorb or use all the oxygen present in the head space. Indeed, the micro fermentation and tiny amount of oxidation that inevitably occurs in bottle conditioning is a part of the effect of bottle conditioning. However, it should be controlled intentionally, not left to chance.

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

I apologize to everyone for the long responses...

 

[Tinga]

I haven't tried the one's you've mentioned, but I have tried a couple that had so much hop "flavor" and aroma that they were disgusting. I'm a fan of the SMASH concept.

If you like SmaSH type beers you should taste two hearted as mentioned. it's hopped solely with centennial and the grain bill isn't terribly complex.

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

I will also state that brewing myths have only really existed among the ignorant (me included). For example, non of these so called "myths" were unknown to professional brewers (e.g., BMC). Science has explained all these things for loooooong time. HBT has "solved" as many myths as Alter has (zero).

Off the top of my head, Kai is the only one who stands out as running actual scientific experiments with any amount of good data and conclusions. We as a community have been creative in solving problems to make better brewing more available to more people, but creativity is a different animal than "busting myths".

Focus on brewing better beer and learning more about how to control the process. Or don't and just brew beer that you like. Read some books, or don't. Claiming to bust myths is the internet equivalent to measuring your penis then bragging about it.

 

[stamandster]

Wow this thread turned into something I was NOT expecting ... funny how that works out.

 

[AlterBrewer]

Yes, any exposure to oxygen after the first 5-15ish hours of fermentation (this depends on factors such as the original gravity of the beer) in which the yeast are building cell walls and multiplying will react with the beer to form generally undesirable flavor compounds and "oxidize" the beer. During active fermentation the yeast does have some ability to absorb some oxygen, and to "scrub out" some level of oxygen via the motion of CO2 exiting the beer. However, after primary fermentation any exposure to oxygen will have a permanent effect on the oxidation level of the beer.

Pouring your beer will introduce a large amount of oxygen into the beer. Perhaps you enjoy the oxidized flavors this produces (a serious option) and think this enhances your beers. Or, like you stated, perhaps you are drinking all your beer fresh enough for oxidation to not fully affect the beer. That is fine and works great. However, stating that pouring your beer around all higgldy piggly will have no affect on oxidation levels is just factually inaccurate.

Any book with any level of in depth fermentation analysis will explain these concepts in more detail and more eloquently than I have here.

Do you do this because the bottling wand is too expensive ($1.50)? Even a bottling wand does not completely protect your beer for oxygen contact, but it is miles ahead of pouring your beer around post fermentation. I just don't understand this idea.

The micro fermentation that occurs in the bottle does not absorb or use all the oxygen present in the head space. Indeed, the micro fermentation and tiny amount of oxidation that inevitably occurs in bottle conditioning is a part of the effect of bottle conditioning. However, it should be controlled intentionally, not left to chance.

I own a bottling wand and racking cane. For the most part, I've siphoned since it disturbs the trub, less. But it is easier to just pick up a gallon jug and pour, when I'm using a gallon jug fermenter. It depends on the size of the fermenter.

I guess because I haven't experienced oxidized beer that I know of, I have to be skeptical.

 

[bob1852]

I will also state that brewing myths have only really existed among the ignorant (me included). For example, non of these so called "myths" were unknown to professional brewers (e.g., BMC). Science has explained all these things for loooooong time. HBT has "solved" as many myths as Alter has (zero).

Off the top of my head, Kai is the only one who stands out as running actual scientific experiments with any amount of good data and conclusions. We as a community have been creative in solving problems to make better brewing more available to more people, but creativity is a different animal than "busting myths".

Focus on brewing better beer and learning more about how to control the process. Or don't and just brew beer that you like. Read some books, or don't. Claiming to bust myths is the internet equivalent to measuring your penis then bragging about it.

Nilo has a great thread about fermentability of crystal malts...

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

Yes, there have been good experiments here. My main point was to show Alter and others that he is not the only one not "busting myths". Very little actual discovery is done by homebrewers other than real world fixes and solutions. Anecdotal evidence and solutions to apparent problems do not bust myths or prove anything. Brewing is a science (whether you want it to be or not) and scientific solutions exist for all our problems and myths.

 

[Seven]

When the mash time is over, I don't bother checking pH, conversion, or any other technical voodoo.

This is the statement that sort of bothered me. "Voodoo" implies mysticism, magic, ghosts, goblins, and make-believe...

The technical aspects of brewing are much more tangible than that.

I do think it's possible to make beer without sweating the technical details but I don't think anyone will make truly great beer without getting a bit technical about their brewing processes. This includes basic things like mash pH, water chemistry, gravity readings, mash temps, etc.

 

[AlterBrewer]

Wow this thread turned into something I was NOT expecting ... funny how that works out.

Yea, I kinda of expected it. Maybe it's my long winded first post. I didn't feel like going back and editing it like it was a book. I could of worded a few things differently, so I wouldn't have been as misunderstood.

Also, though, you can see how rumors get started. Just because I busted a myth or two in my opinion, doesn't mean that I am saying I was the first to do it. It just means that I had a chance to ALSO give it a try.

I mentioned in the OP that I had learned about BIAB and NC from the forums. I guess people just read what they want to and ignore the rest. I included them as alternative methods, because, well, they still are.

 

[AlterBrewer]

This is the statement that sort of bothered me. "Voodoo" implies mysticism, magic, ghosts, goblins, and make-believe...

The technical aspects of brewing are much more tangible than that.

I do think it's possible to make beer without sweating the technical details but I don't think anyone will make truly great beer without getting a bit technical about their brewing processes. This includes basic things like mash pH, water chemistry, gravity readings, mash temps, etc.

Out of what you listed, I only pay attention to mash temps and gravity readings. I just don't worry anymore trying to keep a steady mash temp, as long as I'm within several degrees.

 

[Reno_eNVy]

Just because I busted a myth or two in my opinion, doesn't mean that I am saying I was the first to do it.

I mentioned in the OP that I had learned about BIAB and NC from the forums.

Okay you have to be trolling because nobody is this dense.

So you're saying you learned techniques on the forum on which you're trying to say you busted the myths of said techniques (but you didn't do it first.)

If that statement doesn't make sense then you now know how we feel when we read your posts.

 

[Airborneguy]

Just as with any other version of a gathering of people, one should never make their first impression a loud one...

 

[AlterBrewer]

Basically, what I'm saying is, that I brew in disregard of some of the accepted scientific facts. If you choose to brew by the book, or anything in between my methods and the book, then great!

My point is you can be a minimalist and just do what is easier or quicker if you have consistently good results. I have certainly thought that maybe I was shortchanging myself by not brewing traditionally, but when I, and some others, compare my beer to commercial breweries, I don't think so.

If anybody is amazed that these processes have served me well, it's me! I'm not asking anybody to change their style, but just figured there were some similar mindsets about this whole brewing concept.

I was actually hoping, too, that there were some other short boil AG brewers out there.

Does anyone out there perform less than 1 hour boils on a regular basis? And is the reason to avoid the long 1 hour boil?

 

[Reno_eNVy]

That may be what you were trying to convey but nothing you mentioned is alternative and you aren't part of an elite group of radical, paradigm-changing hipster brewers, as your tone indicated.

 

[AlterBrewer]

Okay you have to be trolling because nobody is this dense.

So you're saying you learned techniques on the forum on which you're trying to say you busted the myths of said techniques (but you didn't do it first.)

If that statement doesn't make sense then you now know how we feel when we read your posts.

Thanks for the kind words! But if you want to see trolling, I think you've come to the wrong place.

I really don't want to argue, people. Why the nitpicking?

Some have countered my posts in a proper manner, some haven't. I would just like to see it more civil.

 

[supe_kitchen]

I still say you are making prison hooch. Put your beers up against some Firestone Walker, Odell's, Ommegang, or any other exceptional brewery (see GABF winners) and then see how you like your alternative brews. If your motive is to make cheap quick beer, why go all grain? To settle all this, put your beers in a competition and post the results. You may even win a medal and make this thread even more interesting.

Just as a side note I have never entered a comp and don't really intend to, but I do see it as way to get good outside feedback if you are unsure about your palate. Just cause your buddies like your beer doesn't mean it's good. I have made some beers that I thought were crap and had lots I people tell me it was great.

Also don't think I am hating on your approach, I say stay open minded and try everything on your own to be sure what works and what doesn't. But if you really want to brew great beer consistently, it is pretty difficult if you are just throwing a bunch of stuff together and hoping for the best.

 

[cdubbaya]

Somehow I read this entire thread, here's what I got out of it.

You brew to make beer, using techniques you learned from this thread. Great. You also brew styles that are typically pretty basic to most brewers. Great. You have no desire to learn about the Brewing Science that could help you expand the hobby you love, and that's also fine. But claiming you don't need to worry about the "Voodoo" to make great beer, is limiting your ability to make great beer.

Of course, "great beer" is subjective, but that's why we have competitions, standards boards, and thousands of breweries (both big and small) that strive to expand our pallets and progress the styles from thousands of years of beer making.

But hell, just when you think you've read it all and brewed it all, someone comes up with a Doughnut Bacon Maple Ale and screws it all up again. :cross:

 

[terrapinj]

keep in mind that we all have different intentions as well

some are simply happy making beer that tastes good, there is a guy at my LHBS that has apparently been brewing the same exact recipe every time for many many years - and he's perfectly happy with that

there are others that strive to learn every little minutia and detail on how to make the absolute best beer possible and will nitpick every little detail to find a flaw or room for improvement in every beer.

some people want to make beer, others want to make the best beer possible and strive to keep learning, and many fall in between

there are many different ways to brew, you need to find what works best for you and what brings a smile to your face after the 1st sip of a new batch

don't get hung up on what others do but remember there are many people who come here that have little to no knowledge on brewing and can easily develop bad habits based off of what they read; HBT comes up 1st for a number of google searches on most brewing related topics and for some people what we type here can be their 1st and perhaps only exposure to homebrewing

 

[baldben]

So many impassioned replies. I guess some feelings got hurt or toes were stepped on.

The guy shared some of the more unorthodox techniques. Maybe if you've been on this site 3 years you heard it all already, but a lot of us haven't. I'm not going to throw away time tested techniques because I read his post, but I'm still glad I did.

The point of the forum is to share and discuss homebrew techniques, right? No need to belittle people for doing so. As a new user it's not an encouraging sign.

EDIT: I came to this particular post because it was tweeted. Odd, since apparently it has no value.

 

[BrewKnurd]

So many impassioned replies. I guess some feelings got hurt or toes were stepped on.

No one's feelings got hurt. No on feels their toes were stepped on. No one cares what the OP does in his brewing. They do, however, care if he presents things as having no impact they have been shown to have impact. Maybe he doesn't detect them, and that's great for him. But to not point out that these things CAN cause a difference does a disservice to people that may just be getting into brewing.

The point of the forum is to share and discuss homebrew techniques, right? No need to belittle people for doing so. As a new user it's not an encouraging sign.

The "belittling" has little to do with what he wanted to talk about, a much more to do with HOW he chose to talk about. I'm sorry if this is hard for people to accept, but the reality of the world is that how you say things matters.

 

[squirrelly]

Very well said. I could not agree more. This coming from the brewer who uses a fully automated, fully digital, closed system to brew homebrew.....