Alternative Brewing

[baldben]

AlterBrewer

I'm new to brewing and appreciate the alternative perspectives. It's not surprising that the more set in their ways brewers would want to rebut you point for point.

I'm currently brewing using extract but use the late addition method to increase hop utilization. It would seem the same principle would apply to boiling hops in pure water, so I thought that was really interesting. I wonder what interaction there could be between the compounds in the malt and those in the hops that would make this undesirable to some?

Also, I like the idea of using smaller batches. Currently I could probably only manage a 5-gallon batch once a month or so as I'm saving for more sophisticated equipment. Smaller batches would allow me greater variety and more experience in a shorter time. Do you tend to do 2-stage fermentation with these? If so, what vessels do you prefer for primary and secondary?

-bben

 

[Airborneguy]

If so, what vessels do you prefer for primary and secondary?

-bben

Secondary? And you said who is set in their ways? :rockin:

Since it's obvious you're talking about me, I think you are putting too much thought into the reason for my "rebuttal".

A lot of what this guy is doing is not "alternative" at all. Many of us to do it regularly. As a matter of fact, I would venture that he formed his opinion of what he thinks other homebrewers find verbotten from books, not from this forum, because it's a lot of the literature that's behind the times and slow to catch up to new tecniques. Some of what he characterized as "time saving" actually takes much longer than what more experienced homerbewers are doing.

I'm the last person to care what other people do with their beer or how they make it. But I try to some extent to pass some of my knowledge of what works on to people who might have something to learn. If you want to mash flour, mix it with hop water, and ferment it more power to you.

 

[baldben]

Airborneguy

It's not only a matter of whether a secondary is necessary or preferable. Depending on the vessels, the use of a secondary could allow me to start a new batch in the primary sooner. And more batches in shorter time is my goal.

 

[AlterBrewer]

Oh, yes, sorry for my oversight. SG of water is 1. Thanks.

 

[AlterBrewer]

AlterBrewer

I'm new to brewing and appreciate the alternative perspectives. It's not surprising that the more set in their ways brewers would want to rebut you point for point.

I'm currently brewing using extract but use the late addition method to increase hop utilization. It would seem the same principle would apply to boiling hops in pure water, so I thought that was really interesting. I wonder what interaction there could be between the compounds in the malt and those in the hops that would make this undesirable to some?

Also, I like the idea of using smaller batches. Currently I could probably only manage a 5-gallon batch once a month or so as I'm saving for more sophisticated equipment. Smaller batches would allow me greater variety and more experience in a shorter time. Do you tend to do 2-stage fermentation with these? If so, what vessels do you prefer for primary and secondary?

-bben

I have only tried secondary twice. Too much trouble for someone like me. Didn't see any clearer beer or better tasting beer. Good idea if you only have one fermenter, though, so you can ferment another batch.

 

[squirrelly]

I think if you use a "secondary fermentation" for what it actually is then you'd see some improved results. To rack the beer to another carboy after fermentation with no additions of any adjuncts or yeast is not secondary fermentation; that is simply conditioning or a brite tank. I use secondary fermentations quite often (being I ferment in conicals this is the same vessel.) I use a secondary fermentation after primary fermentation has completed, and I'm adding another yeast to either dry out the beer or add another characteristic such as Brett or lacto. In this instance a secondary fermentation is taking place being that another yeast strain is mowing through residual sugars or more complex non-fermentables pure strains of brewers yeast can't manage. Sometimes I need to run off the primary yeast and add a yeast that has a higher alcohol resistance to finish fermentation. If I am dry hopping or adding oak I am not doing a secondary fermentation at all, but rather conditioning the finished beer.

Many here including myself have said many times over that moving beer to a separate vessel for no reason is an outdated, risky, and un-needed procedure.

 

[baldben]

squirrelly

I understand that the risk of autolysis is considered low for most fermentation times, but what about getting the off flavors that could be encountered from leaving one's beer on the trub? Or is that generally discarded before fermentation?

 

[squirrelly]

Are you referring to my method of secondary fermentation? I use stainless conicals for fermentation which allow me to harvest my yeast to re-pitch and dump the trub once fermentation is complete. By using this method I do not disturb the beer, can pressurize the fermenter with C02, and still remove any trub.

 

[RobbyBeers]

I've learned a lot from the "alternative" spirits on this board, so cheers to that. However, every new brewer tends to think that they are the spearhead of a brewing revolution, so I tend to take their decrees with liberal skepticism. No offense intended...I've been guilty myself...in my case, I eventually realized that my newbie beers just weren't as great as I thought they were, so my process has gotten more traditional over the years.

I wouldn't take issue with any of your particular techniques. If it works in your brewhouse, carry on. Overall I would warn that:

(1) Taste is subjective. Others may not agree that your results hit the mark. Still others may have goals beyond a cheaper beer supply, a shorter brew day, or a "normal" taste with no "ill effects."​

(2) Not all techniques scale well to other volumes, or translate well to other systems. The traditional techniques are "traditional" because they work for most people, most of the time. Everyone should feel free to pick and choose from the toolbox, but I'd be careful before insinuating that any of the tools are obsolete for everyone.​

 

[Airborneguy]

You said it much better than I did.

 

[AlterBrewer]

Just remembered something else I've done differently, that in the end, I could discern no difference. I researched partial boil AG, but found most people scorning the practice. I went ahead and tried it twice, and I couldn't see any difference in the outcome.

Since I only boil for 20-25 minutes, the darker color you're supposed to get went unnoticed, if it happened at all. This is a good way to make a larger batch than you normally could if you don't have the proper heat or pot size. You could make a 5 gallon batch in a five gallon pot by only boiling 3 gallons or so.

My last batch was 3 gallons, and at the start of my boil I had only 2 gallons of wort. At the end of the boil, I diluted with ice cold water and chilled conventionally in the sink with ice and water. No problems!

I usually brew with a no sparge method, which goes quicker too, but you do have to use more grain.

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

man, sorry i missed this thread when it was hot.

Alter, i totally appreciate your 'against the grain' (pun totally intended) attitude towards brewing, but i don't think you're really reinventing the wheel here. with all the new brewers on HBT because of christmas, i think you're post was ill timed and struck a chord with some experienced brewers who, after seeing tons of noobs struggling with the basics, pointed the obvious out to you.
like a few others said, if it works for you, awesome. but there's many flaws in many of your statements that may or may not negatively effect the outcome of one's beer were they to try them. the mash temp issue for instance, you may not be able to tell the difference between a beer mashed at 145 as opposed to 155, but most people can. most people can also detect the differences between a beer boiled for an hour with timed hop additions from one boiled for 15 minutes with a hop tea added 'sometime' in the boil. i'm guessing a lot of folks could also taste the difference between a beer that was intentionally oxidized in the bottling process and one that was bottled carefully without introducing excessive oxygen.
as for the rest, most people have tried these things before, nothing alternative there.

sometimes it's fun to be different. personally, i find great enjoyment in being different by doing things like ordering a nice tasty Alt when my buddies are ordering Mich Ultra. (sorry, couldn't pass that one up)

 

[supe_kitchen]

I believe when I was new to homebrewing I always felt the majority of my beer was sh*t, with a few good ones sneaking through. Those good beers inspired me to improve all my processes in a 'traditional' manner, which resulted in a much improved percentage of really good beers. I can easily make stuff that is drinkable but I strive for my beer to be great, because I love drinking great beer.

If 'alternative methods' make drinkable beer by all means do it, but anyone can put kool aid packets in a trash bag and make prison hooch. My advice would be to drink a lot more really good beer and then see if what you are making is actually that good.

 

[squirrelly]

Norde struck a good point here. When we judge beers on panels we are picking out things in the beer as well as the brewer's process that could or have been shown to help make better beer. Most judges should be giving positive feedback as well as constructive criticism, but it all boils down to is this the best brewed beer in the category? If not, how can we assist the brewer to make it the best beer?

Most of the things the OP has mentioned are specifically things that get dinged in competition. Now I know the majority of you are thinking, "but I don't brew to compete." this is fine, it makes you no less a great brewer, but is not your goal to make GREAT beer? By using many of these methods the OP has talked about I feel the brewer is cheating himself out of making the best beer he could make. Things like DMS, diacytal, high mash temps and tannin extract are all things taught by the BJCP classes, and are exactly what brewing practices like this will lead to. As Norde stated, just because YOU can't taste these flaws doesn't mean others can't.

 

[maltbarleyhops]

ok, i have to share my opinion.

although i find myself in agreement with most of these posts, i would like to say,

im not looking to shorten my brew day, i enjoy the 6-8 hours i spend brewing a batch. i will occasionally take care of a few things in advance such as grinding malt the day before or setting up my rig the night before.
i do full boils (60-90 min) and full mashes (mostly 60 min) because i believe they contribute fully to the finished product.
"secondary" fermentation? my raspberry pale is the only one i brew that requires it, now if it seems that i have a more than average amount of trub (not yeasts) settling out, i may move it off of it.
"alternative methods" - from what ive read in this post, this seems a very moot point. didnt really run into anything that seemed alternative. brewing in a completely sealed system and moving water from the HLT to Mash Tun to kettle via a vacuum setup or mashing with a autoclave type press system, that would seem "alternative to me.

All in all people, if your enjoying your craft/hobby/disorder and your brewing beer you enjoy, then run with it. If im looking to have a good beer fast, ill grab a racer 5 out of my bottle fridge. if i want to craft a great beer, ill spend the time in research, ill continue to lager my pilzen for 90 days and ill vourlauf my IPAs until the cows come home.
Great beers are great, but my homebrew is mine and thus very special to me. ill take the time, doing it the old tried and true way that works for me, to get what i want. if i can shave some time by cleaning and sanitizing more efficient or having everything set up early i will but i wont try to tell anyone that my way is better or more efficient or cutting edge.
As far as shortcuts go, they are just that, a shorter way to the end. think of it like this: your traveling to a destination. One hundred miles this way and 65 miles that way. sure youll knock off 35 miles, but you wont get to see the worlds largest ball of twine, youll miss out on that 3 mile long sweeping left hand turn that cuts across a beautiful canyon, and you wont be able to stop at that groovy little BBQ shack that has the best ribs this side of Heaven. but you will end up in the same place, but you will have missed quite a bit.

Like i said, i enjoy my entire brew day, it s my day, my beer, my way...

Now, back to that autoclave mash press tun thing..,...

 

[Airborneguy]

...and you wont be able to stop at that groovy little BBQ shack that has the best ribs this side of Heaven.

And where did you say this place was?

 

[AlterBrewer]

I believe when I was new to homebrewing I always felt the majority of my beer was sh*t, with a few good ones sneaking through. Those good beers inspired me to improve all my processes in a 'traditional' manner, which resulted in a much improved percentage of really good beers. I can easily make stuff that is drinkable but I strive for my beer to be great, because I love drinking great beer.

If 'alternative methods' make drinkable beer by all means do it, but anyone can put kool aid packets in a trash bag and make prison hooch. My advice would be to drink a lot more really good beer and then see if what you are making is actually that good.

I've already tried many bottled macro and micro brews in my time. Honestly, I have yet to find one that tastes as good as one from my best batches.

Prison Hootch? Get outta here! You would be very welcome to try one of mine if you were close by. I think you would be quite surprised.

 

[BrewKnurd]

I've already tried many bottled macro and micro brews in my time. Honestly, I have yet to find one that tastes as good as one from my best batches.

Prison Hootch? Get outta here! You would be very welcome to try one of mine if you were close by. I think you would be quite surprised.

I think part of where you may have lost a lot of people in regards to having faith in your preferences in beer was when you called Longhammer a "very good IPA." I encourage you too enjoy what you like, and I'm certainly not questioning your opinion of anything. But I think that many in this discussion would perhaps not agree that Longhammer is a very good IPA.

Again, I want to be very clear that I think everyone should drink what they want, and I think everyone here would agree. I am not questioning the validity of your tastes, I just think that you're not convincing many people that your beer must be good if your comparison point is Longhammer.

 

[phenry]

I think part of where you may have lost a lot of people in regards to having faith in your preferences in beer was when you called Longhammer a "very good IPA." I encourage you too enjoy what you like, and I'm certainly not questioning your opinion of anything. But I think that many in this discussion would perhaps not agree that Longhammer is a very good IPA.

Again, I want to be very clear that I think everyone should drink what they want, and I think everyone here would agree. I am not questioning the validity of your tastes, I just think that you're not convincing many people that your beer must be good if your comparison point is Longhammer.

I just finished reading through the thread and was about to bring this up. Long Hammer really isn't a very good IPA in my books, even for how cheap it can be bought. Put one of your IPAs up next to Two Hearted, Stone, Odell's, or Firestone Walker, then tell us how it compares. Those four IPAs are in many people's eyes extremely good examples of the style, Long Hammer kinda falls short of that title for most.

 

[AlterBrewer]

This thread is aptly named because:

No Chill and BIAB are NOT the standard brewing procedures. This should go without saying. Man, do you know what the proponents of these two methods had to endure just to get these two methods accepted? They're STILL impuned. Just because "many" on this forum may use these two methods, and many elsewhere, doesn't negate the fact that these are alternative ways to brew. I, for one, am thankful that the Aussies brought these into the limelight, so at least they're pretty well known, now. But...still not the norm. Heck, even No Sparge is alternative. At least John Palmer mentioned in his book, though.

Why I started this thread is to show that you can brew with alternative techniques and make great beer. I also mentioned that I'm a minimalist, for the most part. So I didn't want to purchase a wort chiller, mash tun, vinator, bottling bucket, etc. Sometimes being a minimalist does mean a little more trouble, but I don't have storage and extra cleaning issues involved with purchasing all the "toys". Save a lot of money, too.

We already know of the advantages of brewing the traditional way and having all the nice "toys" to make brewing more enjoyable. This thread is just suggesting some ideas, some mine and some already well known, that are alternative and minimalist in nature.

If you don't think that what I've mentioned so far is alternative then read on:

Try striking up a conversation about BIAB or NC in your LHBS or somewhere like AHB, Midwest, or Northern Brewer, and see how far you get. Mention brewing for only 20 minutes. Notice the silence or "huh"?

Read any textbook on homebrewing. Sorry, I missed the chapters on BIAB and No Chill!

Visit most any internet site on homebrewing; again use a mash tun and chill quickly, or else!

Do a poll on this forum; how many of you BIAB and NC as your main methods? Betcha the great majority don't.

So, please, no more about how this thread isn't talking about alternative methods. And please don't take me out of context. I'm not claiming to have invented anything.

I'm not spearheading any revolution, just wanted my point of view out there. Several times people post and wonder about things like shorter boil times, partial boil AG, splashing around the beer during bottling, etc. I'm here to tell you not to worry, go ahead and try new things, experiment, don't be told that you're beer is going to suffer. My experience is that everything is fine in the end.

 

[BrewKnurd]

Honestly, dude, I think a big part of the reason you got the response you did is your posts came off as "look at how cool I am and the stuff I'm doing!" I mean, "Maybe, like me, you have even busted a brewing myth or two!" doesn't make it sound like you're just interested in sharing information, it sounds a lot like you're bragging about how awesome you are. And that's going to tend to get a "oh yeah, well we'll show you" reaction from people. I'm not saying that's right, but that's part of human nature. Just trying to maybe provide some insight into why you got some of the responses you did.

 

[Revvy]

This thread is aptly named because:

No Chill and BIAB are NOT the standard brewing procedures. This should go without saying. Man, do you know what the proponents of these two methods had to endure just to get these two methods accepted?

Yeah actually we DO KNOW....Since many of the proponents of No-Chill brewing in America, did their enduring and convincing ON THIS VERY FORUM. I was one of the folks defending it, but that was a long time ago, man.

That's the issue, you're new here, you've just signed on. You have no idea of our culture, our history, and what we talk about on here. Do you actually read this forum, or did you just come in with guns a blazin?

Did you happen to notice all the threads on here DAILY about BIAB and No chill brewing?

The reason folks are saying that it's not very alternative, is because on here on THIS FORUM, it's not! Just like long primaries and some of the other things talked about every day on here, we've been talking about it, and experimenting about it and sharing our insights on here, FOR YEARS about it.

We've been talking about No-Chill and BIAB on here since Feb of 2009, the very day that the issue of BYO magazine where John Palmer first introduced those concepts to we yanks, hit our mailboxes. I remember that first thread like it was yesterday.

People actually were convinced that you could die from botulism from doing no-chill brewing. Did you know that? That's the kind of arguments we had about it.

But if you can't count that's 3 bloody years ago!!!!!!!!

That's why most folks are saying to you, "Ain't nothing new here fella" because is the forum, with over 40,000 members, it's "been there, done that, designed the t-shirt."

Have you actually read our forum? Maybe if you did then you'd see why were not worshiping the ground you walk on for bringing this stuff up.

The that's the point I think, you're so p-oed that noone is seeing you for the brewing genuis that you think you are for bringing this stuff to the masses.....

Maybe if you look around you might see that a lot of the groundbreaking work on that, originated right here in this forum.

Like I said earlier, maybe you could stand to learn some things from us.....

On here the debate is not that BIAB/No Chill is a viable means of brewing, on here, the last year it has been, whether or not BIAB/No-chill brewing should have it's own subsection of the forum.

We've come a long way in 3 years, on this subject, baby.

Perhaps if you looked around here, and see what we're about maybe you'd see that.

A lot of the folks on here, are the one's writing the next generation of books, or articles or podcasts...and you can be assured that those things are being covered.

 

[AlterBrewer]

I just finished reading through the thread and was about to bring this up. Long Hammer really isn't a very good IPA in my books, even for how cheap it can be bought. Put one of your IPAs up next to Two Hearted, Stone, Odell's, or Firestone Walker, then tell us how it compares. Those four IPAs are in many people's eyes extremely good examples of the style, Long Hammer kinda falls short of that title for most.

What's so bad about Longhammer, I don't get it? I haven't tried the one's you've mentioned, but I have tried a couple that had so much hop "flavor" and aroma that they were disgusting.

What you are saying as well, is subjective. Another very good IPA from the past, was made by Saranac. Don't know if it's still available. It was the first IPA I ever had, and it made me a fan of IPA/APA styles.

I tend to like the more simple brews, not the complex ones. I'm a fan of the SMASH concept. The only beers I brew are APA, Blonde, American Wheat, and maybe Munich-based Amber. That's it! I don't care to try brewing anything else. I have toasted wheat malt and 2 Row both, with good results, if I want some more malty flavor. I don't use Crystal Malts at all, anymore, as I feel the beer flavor was adversely affected by them. Just not a fan, and prefer more of a pure grain taste, maybe?

 

[bob1852]

that's four bloody years ago!!!

Your math is wrong, revvy. 2/2009 is three years ago.

 

[wildwest450]

I've already tried many bottled macro and micro brews in my time. Honestly, I have yet to find one that tastes as good as one from my best batches.

You can't expect to be taken seriously here with that attitude. We've all heard many times that "I" make the best beer i've ever tasted, far too many i's in that sentence.


_

 

[Revvy]

Your math is wrong, revvy. 2/2009 is three years ago.

I originally wrote three.....show's how good my math is....

 

[AlterBrewer]

Yeah actually we DO KNOW....Since many of the proponents of No-Chill brewing in America, did their enduring and convincing ON THIS VERY FORUM. I was one of the folks defending it, but that was a long time ago, man.

That's the issue, you're new here, you've just signed on. You have no idea of our culture, our history, and what we talk about on here. Do you actually read this forum, or did you just come in with guns a blazin?

Did you happen to notice all the threads on here DAILY about BIAB and No chill brewing?

The reason folks are saying that it's not very alternative, is because on here on THIS FORUM, it's not! Just like long primaries and some of the other things talked about every day on here, we've been talking about it, and experimenting about it and sharing our insights on here, FOR YEARS about it.

We've been talking about No-Chill and BIAB on here since Feb of 2009, the very day that the issue of BYO magazine where John Palmer first introduced those concepts to we yanks, hit our mailboxes. I remember that first thread like it was yesterday.

People actually were convinced that you could die from botulism from doing no-chill brewing. Did you know that? That's the kind of arguments we had about it.

But if you can't count that's 4 bloody years ago!!!!!!!!

That's why most folks are saying to you, "Ain't nothing new here fella" because is the forum, with over 40,000 members.

Have you actually read our forum? Maybe if you did then you'd see why were not worshiping the ground you walk on for bringing this stuff up.

The that's the point I think, you're so p-oed that noone is seeing you for the brewing genuis that you think you are for bringing this stuff to the masses.....

Maybe if you look around you might see that a lot of the groundbreaking work on that, originated right here in this forum.

Like I said earlier, maybe you could stand to learn some things from us.....

On here the debate is not that BIAB/No Chill is a viable means of brewing, on here, the last year it has been, whether or not BIAB/No-chill brewing should have it's own subsection of the forum.

Perhaps if you looked around here, and see what we're about maybe you'd see that.

I'm aware that this forum is progressive. I've been reading this forum for over a year. Did you actually read my posts? You can't seriously think that all this is mainstream?

If anyone is Pissed off, it's you! If you don't like my thread, then move on, bro!

I think you're nitpicking just because I'm new here, and somehow you construe my intentions as being some kind of pioneer. Not the case, just thought it might be interesting to share my experiences.

By the tone of your post, it sounds like you could take a little advice from your avatar: RDWHAHB

BTW, I read those posts you mentioned. You are not realizing that these methods are still not the preferred methods, by most. So therefore, they are alternative!

 

[Revvy]

Near as I can see, this is the very first thread about BIAB/No-chill brewing that I recall. Note that it is March, 2009 New BYO Aussi brewing article .

And we have several threads on the subject which have has hundreds if not thousands of views on it. Like this one, and this one and this thread has over a thousand posts in it.

If you bothered to look, you'd see we have threads about "hop bursting" and spicing nochill batches, how to calculate efficiencies with BIAB, and how to step mash.....It's all here.

On here, they're not alternative. No matter what you say.

And honestly on here I think it's getting closer to 50% BIAB vs other methods of Ag...Everytime ag is mentioned, someone jumps in about biab...Just like everytime someone mentions bottling, someone has to jump in and mentions kegging. It's almost becomming as annoying.

I think BIAB on here, has gotten more people to all grain than anything else has.

*shrug*

 

[Airborneguy]

The only beers I brew are APA, Blonde, American Wheat, and maybe Munich-based Amber. That's it! I don't care to try brewing anything else. I have toasted wheat malt and 2 Row both, with good results, if I want some more malty flavor. I don't use Crystal Malts at all, anymore, as I feel the beer flavor was adversely affected by them. Just not a fan, and prefer more of a pure grain taste, maybe?

Does this paragraph make anyone else laugh?

 

[AlterBrewer]

You can't expect to be taken seriously here with that attitude. We've all heard many times that "I" make the best beer i've ever tasted, far too many i's in that sentence.


_

Not meant to be arrogant. Just being honest. Taste is subjective! I just mentioned this to make a point, that my beer ain't that bad!