Alpine Nelson Clone Attempt

[daveafrank]

So for anyone who has done this recipe...thoughts on the 11 day dry hop? Seems like a lot of contact time...I've been doing 4 day dry hops and gotten great aroma for other IPAs. Just brewed the recipe yesterday and the wort tasted fantastic.

Also, at what temp/attenuation level did you dry hop at?

 

[BlurryEyed]

I'm dry hopping it for 7 days at 70 degrees. Will update when it's tapped.

 

[bobbrews]

thoughts on the 11 day dry hop? Seems like a lot of contact time

The head brewer did say in the video that they let it go for about 2 weeks. An 11-12 day dryhop does seem in line with the owner's intention for this beer. NZ hops are somewhat grassy/earthy. An extended dryhop might accentuate the grassiness; or perhaps it is split into two stages of 6 days each, which seems like a safer bet to me.

The head brewer also stated in the video that Nelson Sauvin hops are used primarily for flavor and not so much for aroma, leading me to believe this beer is heavier on the Southern Cross late additions. (At some point in time in IPA brewing history, it was arbitrarily decided that middle additions give you more flavor and less aroma, whereas late additions give you more aroma and less flavor).

Flaked Rye is likely the only type of Rye Malt used. It has more flavor and rye character (albeit less malty) without the same type of gravity contribution as Rye Malt. This dryish, biscuit character is excellent in paler rye beers. Head retention will be greater, and therefore the ability to carry aroma. It will also do a lot for the body in an IPA mashed around 149 F.

Here is my edit of an earlier recipe post (let me know if anyone attempts it before me):


Alpine Nelson Attempt

90 minute, 7 gallon boil
5.25 gallon batch in primary
74% efficiency
1.065 / 1.010
4.69 SRM

Mash Ratio: 1.5 qt. per every 1 lb. grain at 149 F for 90 min

8.00# or 64% Great Western American 2-row
1.75# or 14% Weyermann Rye
1.25# or 10% Simpsons Maris Otter
0.75# or 6% Flaked Rye
0.50# or 4% Weyermann CaraFoam
0.25# or 2% Acidulated Malt

1.00 oz. "Super Alpha" pellet @ 60 min
0.50 oz. Nelson Sauvin 12.5% pellet @ 30 min
1.00 oz. Southern Cross 12.5% pellet @ 15 min

1.50 oz. Nelson Sauvin 12.5% pellet @ flameout/whirlpool
1.50 oz. Southern Cross 12.5% pellet @ flameout/whirlpool

Dryhop Round 1
1.50 oz. Southern Cross 12.5% pellet @ 6 day dryhop
1.50 oz. Nelson Sauvin 12.5% pellet @ 6 day dryhop

Dryhop Round 2
1.50 oz. Southern Cross 12.5% pellet @ 6 day dryhop
1.50 oz. Nelson Sauvin 12.5% pellet @ 6 day dryhop


Wyeast 1056 starter w/82% attenuation @ 64F

Drop to 48F after 7-10 days of Primary Fermentation. Wait 1 day then rack off yeast and dryhop in two stages.

Confirmed use of White Labs Clarity Ferm by the head brewer. Clarity Ferm from White Labs, added to the yeast, will prevent the precipitation of complexed polyphenols and proteins by hydrolyzing the sensitive (haze-active) polypeptides in the region where such hydrogen bonding occurs. The specificity of the enzyme ensures that no other beer parameters are affected.

 

[jammin]

^i thnk you're way off about flaked rye. Rye malt has a more intense flavor and lends to perceived dry taste. Flaked rye is much softer and contributes sweetness/body.

The dry hop from my experience should excentuate nelson - even at 50/50 the S. cross plays too big of a role.

 

[bobbrews]

i thnk you're way off about flaked rye. Rye malt has a more intense flavor and lends to perceived dry taste. Flaked rye is much softer and contributes sweetness/body.

Perhaps... maybe the ratio is more like 14% malted / 6% flaked. The flaked rye to rye malt ratio in this beer is the only thing that is confusing me. Someone had said earlier that they received confirmation of zero rye malt in Nelson, so I rolled with it. This may very well be incorrect info.

Your idea makes more sense though (edited recipe above). The grains in the buckets also looks like a lot more rye malt is being used than flaked rye.

Neverthless, there are conflicting views:

Northern Brewer: "Flaked rye lends dry, crisp character and strong rye flavor. Use 5-10%."

Flaked will give you more of the spiciness associated with Rye.

in Designing Great Beers I read flaked is stronger for flavor than malt, I think it says 2/3 as much flaked as malt will give the same flavor.

i brewed the same recipe with both with flaked and malted rye. Myself, i tasted much more rye in the beer with the flaked rye over the malted.

For those using rye:

Malted rye has no husk and a high protein content. It is notorious for creating a thick, gummy mash, due partly to the protein, but also excessive amounts of beta-glucans.

A multi-step infusion mash, with rice hulls as a filtering aid, is a near necessity, with rests for glucans (105 F, 30 min.), protein (122 F, 30 min.), and saccharification (148-150 F, 60 min.) followed by mash-out (170 F). This schedule will help avoid the aggravating, dreaded stuck mash and create a beneficial thin mash. Saccharification temperature is kept low as rye will contribute sufficient body without mashing for dextrin.

Recirculation (vorlauf) and wort runoff should be done carefully and deliberately. Start the vorlauf very slowly to prevent the grain from lugging against the screen or manifold and clogging. Be patient when filling your kettle, and assiduously maintain sparge water at 170 F.

The dry hop from my experience should excentuate nelson - even at 50/50 the S. cross plays too big of a role.

You think Southern Cross is more potent than Nelson Sauvin? A little bit of Nelson goes a long way IMO. It is very pungent. All of the little hints in that video points to them favoriting the more mellow Southern Cross hops for late additions and aroma.

 

[jammin]

^that is based on my experience brewing this clone at 50/50 nelson & SC. After I finshed the keg - i felt 2:1 nelson:SC would have been closer to the real thing.

Also - I went heavier on the flaked rye and felt it gave the beer too much body and sweetness. I brew with Rye quite frequently so I am pretty familiar with it's contributions; both in flaked and malted form

 

[bobbrews]

^that is based on my experience brewing this clone at 50/50 nelson & SC. After I finshed the keg - i felt 2:1 nelson:SC would have been closer to the real thing.

Also - I went heavier on the flaked rye and felt it gave the beer too much body and sweetness. I brew with Rye quite frequently so I am pretty familiar with it's contributions; both in flaked and malted form

Copy and paste my recipe with your edits for benefit of this thread.

 

[missigsfan]

I have to agree. Seems like too much SC in that recipe. Every recipe going around has more Nelson in it.

 

[BlurryEyed]

I have to agree. Seems like too much SC in that recipe. Every recipe going around has more Nelson in it.

Exactly because otherwise it might have been named Southern Cross IPA

 

[bobbrews]

Exactly because otherwise it might have been named Southern Cross IPA

They did not name the beer after the hop. The region of New Zealand that inspired the beer is called Nelson. Part of that region is used for hop growing. Multiple varieties are grown there. There is no "Southern Cross" region.

Did you watch the video?

"We're adding them (Nelson Sauvin) at this stage in the boiling process to impart a good flavor from the hop, and a decent bit of aroma, but mainly just flavor. At the same time, Whirlfloc tablets are added to further clarify the brew".

"15 minutes later, a yeast nutrient and Southern Cross hops are added to the kettle."

"I like the Southern Cross because it has a big flavor, but it's just not real intense and pungent. It's just floral and piney, and it compliments the earthiness and spiciness and grapefruit/citrusy parts of the Nelson."


For what it's worth, I just rewatched the video and they seem to be adding the exact same amounts of two separate containers worth of hops at whirlpool and dryhop.

 

[jammin]

@bobbrews - ill say 2 things

the verbage in the video is mostly very generalized. think if you were talking to some neighbor who saw you brewing and has no clue about craft beer.


the hops they get are 1st dang choice, especially the SC. much different and better than what us peasants get. this certainly impacts the final product; so it would make sense our recipe is a little different than theirs to get a similar flavor.

 

[bobbrews]

@bobbrews - ill say 2 things

the verbage in the video is mostly very generalized. think if you were talking to some neighbor who saw you brewing and has no clue about craft beer.

the hops they get are 1st dang choice, especially the SC. much different and better than what us peasants get. this certainly impacts the final product; so it would make sense our recipe is a little different than theirs to get a similar flavor.

Except we do know a thing or two about brewing IPAs... As does Alpine. There are no clueless parties at play here.

Your reply still doesn't help our attempts at a clone. We could say the same about Heady Topper and if we did, we would get no where.

 

[jammin]

my first/only attempt at cloning this looked liked this:

73.% 2 row
12.7% flaked rye
7.3% rye
7.3% marris otter
5.5% carapils


warrior - 16 IBU
1oz each Nelson/SC @ 10 min - 30 IBU
1.5oz each Nelson/SC @ 0
2.5oz each Nelson/SC dry hop for ~ 8 days


My tentative revisions would be to scale back the malted/flaked rye to 50/50 or 60/40 in favor of malted.

I would then do a 100% Nelson dry hop. Part of this is due to my love for nelson and part of this is due to the flavor I experienced not following suit with the real thing. FWIW - I would DH @ 4oz nelson for a 5g batch. I have brewed a couple other nelson/rye beers that have drawn several remarks from friends who say it tastes like nelson when it's "on". All these beers have been nearly 100% nelson in the DH

 

[jammin]

Except we do know a thing or two about brewing IPAs... As does Alpine. There are no clueless parties at play here.

Your reply still doesn't help our attempts at a clone. We could say the same about Heady Topper and if we did, we would get no where.

At nobody STILL has gotten anywhere with cloning heady.

 

[bobbrews]

At nobody STILL has gotten anywhere with cloning heady.

My latest HT clone was pretty damn close, if not cloned. We had a lot of input in that thread, however you are about 1 of 4 people in this thread that has given some good input on cloning this beer. I have not had much experience with rye, and you've convinced me on that front... I'm going with 14% rye malt and 6% flaked rye. But the hop profile/amount/schedule is something I'm just not sold on.

Your Nelson attempt is missing acidulated and uses carapils instead of carafoam. I don't know...maybe you used lactic acid. Carafoam is however completely different than carapils. Your bittering charge is too low... Way too low. Did your attempt come across as not bitter enough and too sweet/juicy from the late hops?

 

[jammin]

w/e bro - good luck. I've actually brewed and you're still thinking about it

Acidualted is for Ph and if you can taste the difference between foam and pils .... congrats

 

[bobbrews]

i've actually brewed and you're still thinking about it

Okay expert.

Pretty sure I've brewed enough IPAs to be able to know what to sort of expect in the final product. Ph is crucial. And yeah, Carafoam is very different from carapils. I'm guessing you've never used Carafoam. It's sweeter. Google the differences between them and you'll see a ton of people are in agreement.

 

[jammin]

^i have. Send me a bottle of your HT clone - I'll pay for shipping. I'd be interested to see what your definition of cloned is

My recipe calls for 5oz DH alone - not sure where you got 6oz total.

Also - never claimed to be an expert. Just trying to do you a favor and help out as you asked



PS - sweet back peddle on your edit....

 

[BlurryEyed]

Bob can talk the talk...let's see some pics Bob! Show us your Nelson! Let's not get pissy and get down to the task at hand, cloning a great brew.

 

[bobbrews]

^i have. Send me a bottle of your HT clone - I'll pay for shipping. I'd be interested to see what your definition of cloned is.

theveganbrewer and myself offered the most input for cloning Heady Topper. He has since retired from homebrewing, but I am still around. I've made five attempts at that beer, and the last one I brewed a month ago was nearly spot on. I would add more Apollo during the hopstand. You can find my latest clone recipe in that thread. And I kegged it, so no bottles.

My recipe calls for 5oz DH alone - not sure where you got 6oz total.

PS - sweet back peddle on your edit....

I only edited my response because you edited yours to include the word each. It originally read as roughly 6 oz:

warrior - 16 IBU
1oz Nelson/SC @ 10 min - 30 IBU
1.5oz Nelson/SC @ 0
2.5oz Nelson/SC dry hop for ~ 8 days

Your bittering charge is still far to low. I use more at that slot for a standard APA.

 

[jammin]

cool story, bro. you should be just fine on your own then.

i keg too and have no trouble bottling off of them. i suspect you're heady clone isn't nearly as close as you think it is - but, I guess we'll never know

 

[bobbrews]

re: jammin

not worth it

 

[jammin]

I didnt ask - and congrats on being a cook

 

[BierMuncher]

This is about one more misstep from being closed. One more personal affront and you'll be taking a 7 day break. Knock it off!! Go brew something for crying out loud!

 

[droder1]

Seriously guys come on. This is a good clone thread let's not get it closed due to a stupid (yes) pissing match. We all have a common goal, cloning a delicious beer. You both have differing views which are helpful but only if we can hone in rather than argue.

As an aside, the HT clone is very solid. There is no crapping on that.

 

[daveafrank]

Yes, lets keep it positive people! Got to imagine we're getting pretty close to a clone!

FWIW, I just brewed up a version that is fermenting away right now. Will certainly update this thread when I take samples.

Sorry for the weird batch size...but its for my 3 gallon keg.

Boil Size: 5.12 gal
Post Boil Volume: 4.32 gal
Batch Size (fermenter): 4.00 gal
Bottling Volume: 3.20 gal
Estimated OG: 1.066 SG
Estimated Color: 4.7 SRM
Estimated IBU: 57.9 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 72.6 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
6 lbs 12.0 oz Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 1 64.5 %
2 lbs Rye, Flaked (2.0 SRM) Grain 2 19.1 %
1 lbs Pale Malt, Maris Otter (3.0 SRM) Grain 3 9.6 %
8.0 oz Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM) Grain 4 4.8 %
3.5 oz Acid Malt (3.0 SRM) Grain 5 2.1 %
0.40 oz Southern Cross [13.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 6 23.0 IBUs
0.30 oz Nelson Sauvin [12.00 %] - Boil 30.0 min Hop 7 12.2 IBUs
1.00 Items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 mins) Fining 8 -
0.30 oz Southern Cross [13.00 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 9 8.5 IBUs
0.80 oz Nelson Sauvin [12.00 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 10 8.5 IBUs
0.50 oz Southern Cross [13.00 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 11 5.7 IBUs
1.0 pkg California Ale (White Labs #WLP001) [35. Yeast 12 -
2.00 oz Nelson Sauvin [12.00 %] - Dry Hop 11.0 D Hop 13 0.0 IBUs
2.00 oz Southern Cross [13.00 %] - Dry Hop 11.0 Hop 14 0.0 IBUs

1500ml starter of Denny's 50 Yeast. Fermenting in the low to mid 60s with a 1deg rise per day as fermentation slows.

Also of note, these are freshly opened packages of 2014 Nelson and Southern Cross. The SC smelled a little oniony and earthy actually. The Nelson was crazy fresh smelling.

 

[BlurryEyed]

Just racked from my secondary to the keg. FG was spot on at 1.012, so must have done something right. Tastes great, can't wait for it to carb up.

 

[missigsfan]

Jesus Christ what a **** show that just occurred.

 

[BlurryEyed]

First pull off the tap after carbonation for a few days at 10 PSI was a pleasant surprise! The color is a little too cloudy at this point as I didn't use any fining agents. I'm going to give it a few pulls before posting a pic, but man, this is one tasty clone. Verrryyy close to the real deal, I'll share my recipe with the pic, but it follows what everyone has posted here already.

 

[daveafrank]

Just took a sample, although my batch isn't fully carbed yet. I will say that my choice of 20% flaked rye in the recipe(with no rye malt) is most definitely wrong. I am missing the spiciness that the rye normally brings to the table.

 

[FourSeasonAngler]

Just took a sample, although my batch isn't fully carbed yet. I will say that my choice of 20% flaked rye in the recipe(with no rye malt) is most definitely wrong. I am missing the spiciness that the rye normally brings to the table.

A good place to start if you attempt this again would be a 50/50 blend.

I commend your efforts in the clone attempts as well as the others in this thread. If you don't mind please post some final result pictures and a quick taste test along with any ideas for tweaking. It really helps those who attempt to give this one a shot.

:rockin:

 

[BlurryEyed]

I'm an amateur brewer, so the experts out there, take my post with a grain or two of salt!

I used this thread's recipe advice to brew a clone. I brew in a bag.

My recipe was as follows (BrewersFriend):

Brew Method: BIAB
Boil Time: 90 min
Batch Size: 5 gallons (fermentor volume)
Boil Size: 6 gallons
Boil Gravity: 1.054
Efficiency: 70% (brew house)

STATS:
Original Gravity: 1.064
Final Gravity: 1.016
ABV (standard): 6.34%
IBU (tinseth): 109.54
SRM (morey): 4.97

FERMENTABLES:
8 lb - American - Pale 2-Row (64%)
1.5 lb - American - Rye (12%)
1.25 lb - United Kingdom - Maris Otter Pale (10%)
1 lb - Flaked Rye (8%)
0.5 lb - American - Carapils (Dextrine Malt) (4%)
0.25 lb - German - Acidulated Malt (2%)

HOPS:
0.66 oz - Southern Cross, Type: Pellet, AA: 12.5, Use: Boil for 60 min, IBU: 30.35
1.25 oz - Nelson Sauvin, Type: Pellet, AA: 12.5, Use: Boil for 5 min, IBU: 11.46
0.75 oz - Southern Cross, Type: Pellet, AA: 12.5, Use: Boil for 5 min, IBU: 6.88
2.25 oz - Nelson Sauvin, Type: Pellet, AA: 12.5, Use: Whirlpool for 0 min at 180 °F, IBU: 42.13
1 oz - Southern Cross, Type: Pellet, AA: 12.5, Use: Whirlpool for 0 min at 180 °F, IBU: 18.73
3.5 oz - Nelson Sauvin, Type: Pellet, AA: 12.5, Use: Dry Hop for 5 days
2 oz - Southern Cross, Type: Pellet, AA: 12.5, Use: Dry Hop for 5 days

YEAST:
Wyeast - American Ale 1056
Starter: No
Form: Liquid
Attenuation (avg): 75%
Flocculation: Med-Low
Optimum Temp: 60 - 72 F
Fermentation Temp: 68 F
Pitch Rate: 0.35 (M cells / ml / deg P)

My results were in my opinion...outstanding. The taste is as close to the real deal as I can remember. The only variant was the color, it just doesn't look like the real deal. The dry hopping really changed the color, even using a hop sack.

Here's my results, and I will certainly brew this again. I wish I had more to offer to help with the recipe, but I'm just not as experienced as most on this thread:

 

[missigsfan]

I never get any spiciness from Nelson. A pretty clean maltiness with the rye contributing smoothness to the body.

 

[jolopez1026]

ive brewed an Alpine clone, twice with rye malt( the kind that looks like sunflower seed kernels), both times have gotten a beer that is pretty damn close to the original if not better! ~ 20% of the grain bill

 

[BrewKaiser]

Brewed this up yesterday and I'm looking forward to see how it turns out. I'ld like to thank all the posters who offered constructive feedback. While there is some "spirited" debate over what is the exact recipe, my perspective and approach to cloning a beer is this:

As an amateur homebrewing hobbyist, I realize that my ability to re-create a beer 100% is like looking for pots of gold under rainbows. There is a near infinite number of variables to what makes a beer between water profiles, grain sources, hops, equipment, an brew process. There are even subtle differences between the Nelson brewed at Alpine vs the recipe brewed at GreenFlash. Again, scale and equipment even on a commercial level produces differences for what is presumably just a scaled up recipe. Given this, I approach a clone as an opportunity to learn and advance my skills as a homebrewing enthusiast.

I certainly would be delighted if my batch is perceived to be the real thing by my group of friends and fellow craft beer enthusiasts, but I know the variables related to my equipment, process, and access to ingredients will ultimately result in a good/great beer that's in the same ballpark as the beer being cloned. If it turns out to be indistinguishable from the real thing, I'll certainly be posting details specific to my set up, recipe and process.

Based on my experiences yesterday, I offer a few observations for anyone else with a similar set up as mine:

Batch Size 5.5 Gal
2 Row - 9 lbs
MO - 1.8 lbs
Rye Malt - 1.5 lbs
Flaked Rye - 1 lbs
Carafoam - .75 lbs
Rice Hulls - .4 lbs


1) I use a 5 Gal Gott cooler as my MLT. The 14.45 Lbs grain bill pushed it to the limits. The result is a very thick mash ratio of 1qt/lb. Ideally I like to use 1.5qt/lb
2) Being concerned about thick mash and reduced efficiency, I milled my grains on the fine side.
3) Since I knew I would have a thick mash with fine milled grains and Rye, I added Rice Hulls and scaled back others to compensate. I pre-soaked rice hulls in hot water for 1 hr to reduce any wort absorption.
3) Sparge did stick and gave me fits. Had to sparge in 4 steps instead of 3.
4) This beer produces a lot of trub and hop material. Hop spider and good whirlpool necessary if using a plate chiller. Plan on losing more volume than normal to trub and hops and adjust volumes by at least .25 Gal.
5) If using BeerSmith2, be sure to adjust Alpha Acids after you receive your hops. I was able to find SC and NS hops on Yakimavalleyhops.com, but actual AA for SC was 14.1% vs 13% default in BS2. Not a huge deal, but there's a lot of SC used and I did use .75 oz at 60 min. Having never used Yakima Valley before, the hops had great aroma, but did seem a bit dry and powdery. Not sure how fresh.

Anyway, my thin mash and multiple sparge steps did result in 88% mash efficiency and as a result my pre-boil gravity was 1.063 for 7 Gal (estimated was 1.059 for 7.5 Gal). As a result I only boiled for 70 min. I didn't want to dilute with distilled water as I didn't want to dilute mineral additions any further since I was already on the soft side. Again, so many variables.

I hope this helps anyone considering to brew this with a 5 Gal Gott and 8 Gal Kettles like me. I greatly appreciate all the research and constructive advice and feedback and encourage anyone brewing this beer to continue to post not only their recipe but also their set up and brew day experiences so we can all learn and make adjustments for our own set up.

 

[BlurryEyed]

Question...my nelson was fantastic, tastes great...only gripe is the color. After dry hopping, it gained a greenish tint...is there any way to help that?

 

[Arbalest]

Cold crash if you can. Maybe still hop particles floating around. It's such a big dry hop bill.

 

[BlurryEyed]

I did cold crash for 24 hours and even used a hop sack on the secondary. That was a pain in the butt to remove from the carboy....

 

[FourSeasonAngler]

In the video Alpine is shown using a product called Clarity Ferm, this could be the reason why there is not as much hop haze in their final product compared to yours.

Otherwise, yes a good very cold crash around 32°F for a few days should knock 99% of the hop particulate out of the beer.

 

[BlurryEyed]

I'll try a gelatin fining agent next go around, but the color wasn't a big deal for me.