All things Trappist

[Paulaner]

Random, but I've been seeing Westmalle Dubbel on tap the last few months. Back in the day, the only place to get it on draft was at the Oude Arsenaal in Antwerp. That said, I had one at lunch the other day and the bartender poured it in a 16 oz glass, filled it up to the rim. Normally that's a no-no, but for $7, I'll take that every day. I wonder if I can buy a keg of it.

A few years back we stopped at Bierhandel Willems in Grobbendonk right outside of Antwerp for some beer to take back to Germany, and were served a 0.33cl chalice of Westmalle Dubbel as we waited in line to check out. I don't think I'll ever forget that wonderful experience.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I just ordered 3 packs of Lallemand Abbaye yeast. I'll be making a Dubbel sized such that in the end it will yield ~6.2 gallons (~66 x 12 ounce bottles). OG is anticipated to be 1.072. My question is, for this size of batch will 3 packs of this dry yeast be sufficient if direct pitched at 64 degrees F.?

 

[Gregory T]

I just ordered 3 packs of Lallemand Abbaye yeast. I'll be making a Dubbel sized such that in the end it will yield ~6.2 gallons (~66 x 12 ounce bottles). OG is anticipated to be 1.072. My question is, for this size of batch will 3 packs of this dry yeast be sufficient if direct pitched at 64 degrees F.?

That calculates to 1.43 m/ml/°p

 

[Big Monk]

That calculates to 1.43 m/ml/°p

Depends on your B cells/gram assumption.

 

[Gregory T]

Depends on your B cells/gram assumption.

Using 10 billion cells / gram

 

[Big Monk]

Using 10 billion cells / gram

The quote from Lallemand is 7, IIRC.

 

[Gregory T]

The quote from Lallemand is 7, IIRC.

I mean technically all they claim is greater than 5 billion
I used 10

 

[Gregory T]

Classified as a Saccharomyces cerevisiae, a top fermenting yeast.
Typical Analysis of LalBrew® Abbaye Yeast:
Percent solids 93% – 97%
Living Yeast Cells ≥ 5 x 109 per gram of dry yeast
Wild Yeast < 1 per 106 yeast cells
Bacteria < 1 per 106 yeast cells
Finished product is released to the market only after passing a rigorous series of tests
*According to the ASBC and EBC methods of analysis

https://www.lallemandbrewing.com/en/united-states/product-details/abbaye-belgian-ale-yeast/

 

[Big Monk]

Classified as a Saccharomyces cerevisiae, a top fermenting yeast.
Typical Analysis of LalBrew® Abbaye Yeast:
Percent solids 93% – 97%
Living Yeast Cells ≥ 5 x 109 per gram of dry yeast
Wild Yeast < 1 per 106 yeast cells
Bacteria < 1 per 106 yeast cells
Finished product is released to the market only after passing a rigorous series of tests
*According to the ASBC and EBC methods of analysis

https://www.lallemandbrewing.com/en/united-states/product-details/abbaye-belgian-ale-yeast/

I spoke directly with their technical staff. It’s 7-8 B/g.

 

[Gregory T]

I spoke directly with their technical staff. It’s 7-8 B/g.

Good info, thanks

Then at 7.5 billion cell density I calculate it at 1.27m/ml/°p

Still within the 1.25-1.5 range

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

My 3 packs of Abbaye arrived today, and all three have expiration dates of 11/2020.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

If my Abbaye had a "born on date" of 12/2017, then it is 19 months old, and at a loss of viability of ~1.4% per month, it is down ~26.6% on live cells. If it started with 10 billion viable cells per gram, it is now at about 7.34 billion viable cells per gram.

(~7.34 x 33 grams)/~24 Liters/~17.51 Plato = ~0.576 m/mL/°P if I'm looking at this correctly. Noticeably low of the 1.25 m/mL/°P mark.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Stored vaguely properly the viability of dry yeast declines rather less than that - I've seen suggestions it can be as low as 2-3% per year.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I finally gave up on my local WalMart ever getting the "Florida Crystals" brand of demerara sugar in stock, and wound up buying "Full Circle Market" brand demerara from another local store.

 

[Big Monk]

I finally gave up on my local WalMart ever getting the "Florida Crystals" brand of demerara sugar in stock, and wound up buying "Full Circle Market" brand demerara from another local store.

Did you post your recipe?

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Did you post your recipe?

It currently looks like this:

 

[6Tap]

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Since some of the Candi Syrups (particularly the darker varieties) state that they contain "date sugar", I searched and found a pure organic "date syrup" which contains nothing but dates, and which may prove to be just the ticket to add to your Belgian Trappist Ales. I'm initially guessing at adding 2-4 ounces in a 5-7 gallon volume recipe. From only the pictures provided on amazon.com it appears to be about 40 SRM as a first guess.

https://www.amazon.com/Premium-Organic-Pure-Date-Syrup/dp/B075G4V3LL/ref=sr_1_3?crid=S2W57HUQJR8T&keywords=date+syrup&qid=1563007184&s=gateway&sprefix=date,aps,180&sr=8-3&th=1

 

[Gregory T]

Happy fermecation to me. taking the week off to see a few shows and brew some beers

I plan to brew a Blonde with 3787, brew a Tripel with yeast top cropped from the blonde, then brew another blonde with my dry yeast combo using my newly acquired Weyermann extra pale

 

[GurraG]

I have made a dubbel with about 10% date syrup. It gave a nice, rather subtle fruity flavor, and slightly slick mouthfeel which I wasn't crazy about. I added the syrup in the boil, which may have stripped away some of the flavor/aroma. I later read a suggestion to add it in secondary, precisely to preserve the delicate flavor.

 

[mediant]

Since some of the Candi Syrups (particularly the darker varieties) state that they contain "date sugar", I searched and found a pure organic "date syrup" which contains nothing but dates, and which may prove to be just the ticket to add to your Belgian Trappist Ales. I'm initially guessing at adding 2-4 ounces in a 5-7 gallon volume recipe.

Dates are rich in amino acids, so the goal of adding date sugar or syrup as one of Candi ingredients must be to encourage Maillard reaction, not for their own good.
Out of curiosity, last Friday I made a batch of Candi syrup with table sugar, adding a tablespoon of date syrup. I first inverted the sugar with 0.1% citric acid, then added soda ash to made the environment alkali and put a tablespoon of date syrup. Didn't have much patience, so the resulting syrup is only ruby-red in color, smell and taste are quite nice though .

 

[Stand]

Dates are rich in amino acids, so the goal of adding date sugar or syrup as one of Candi ingredients must be to encourage Maillard reaction, not for their own good.
Out of curiosity, last Friday I made a batch of Candi syrup with table sugar, adding a tablespoon of date syrup. I first inverted the sugar with 0.1% citric acid, then added soda ash to made the environment alkali and put a tablespoon of date syrup. Didn't have much patience, so the resulting syrup is only ruby-red in color, smell and taste are quite nice thoughView attachment 635495 .

I've always added DME and a small amount of DAP to get really good color / flavor after inversion. Very happy with the results.

Trick I found is to invert first for 20 minutes at 260-270 and then drop temperature with 1 tsp of DAP 1tbs of DME dissolved in 1/2 cup of water.

I started doing this because lighter syrups weren't inverting enough if I added DME and DAP from the start, and they would crystallize in Mason jar.

 

[trailrider]

I’ll be making a Belgian Tripel soon that calls for a lb of sugar and a lb of candy syrup. I plan on adding half the required sugar during the boil and the remaining sugar and syrup after the fermentation starts. I’ve read a few posts about this technique and it sounds like the way to go. I’ve also read that over pitching or under pitching yeast can have an adverse affect on the beer. Reducing the sugar going into the boil reduces the OG of the beer going into the fermenter so I’m wondering if the amount of yeast pitched should also be lowered. According to BeerSmith if all the sugar and syrup go into the boil the OG should be 1.081 but using only half the sugar in the boil the OG is 1.069. That being the case is the difference of .012 in the OG not enough to worry about or am I just over thinking it.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

The book 'Brew Like A Monk' mentions that Rochefort mashes at a whopping pH 5.9 and then adjusts to pH 5.2 in the kettle via the addition of a mineral acid. That approach seems a bit odd, but (if true) it certainly must impact various flavor and mouthfeel characteristics.

That said, the fact that it is a mineral acid as opposed to an organic acid leads me to wonder if they are using Phosphoric Acid. Or could it be Hydrochloric, or Sulfuric, or a blend such as CRS or AMS?

 

[Big Monk]

The book 'Brew Like A Monk' mentions that Rochefort mashes at a whopping pH 5.9 and then adjusts to pH 5.2 in the kettle via the addition of a mineral acid. That approach seems a bit odd, but (if true) it certainly must impact various flavor and mouthfeel characteristics.

That said, the fact that it is a mineral acid as opposed to an organic acid leads me to wonder if they are using Phosphoric Acid. Or could it be Hydrochloric, or Sulfuric, or a blend such as CRS or AMS?

They use Phosphoric.

I’d take BLAM with a grain of salt here as Stan didn’t really provide specifics but I conducted some recipe analysis and given what I think are reasonable parameters for a Euro Pilsner malt and their high source water alkalinity, I’d say that 5.9 is likely.

All we have to go on is the Rochefort 6 recipe sheet and BLAM.

 

[Gregory T]

They use Phosphoric.

I’d take BLAM with a grain of salt here as Stan didn’t really provide specifics but I conducted some recipe analysis and given what I think are reasonable parameters for a Euro Pilsner malt and their high source water alkalinity, I’d say that 5.9 is likely.

All we have to go on is the Rochefort 6 recipe sheet and BLAM.

I use phosphoric as well. For my blonde I just brewed (10 pounds pils and 2 pounds specialty malts) I started with RO water, then added minerals to match the target profile. Typically 4-6 grams calcium chloride, 1 gram gypsum, 1 gram Epsom, 1 gram baking soda just for the (NA and HCO3) then add phosphoric to get the mash PH to 5.6. It typically takes around 10-12 ml of phosphoric.

Does that see, reasonable? I feel like that’s a lot of acid. Not that I have a frame of reference for thinking that

 

[Bassman2003]

Maybe it is the ml number that is giving the impression it is a lot of acid. For reference, 10-12 ml of lactic acid would be a lot.

 

[Big Monk]

I use phosphoric as well. For my blonde I just brewed (10 pounds pils and 2 pounds specialty malts) I started with RO water, then added minerals to match the target profile. Typically 4-6 grams calcium chloride, 1 gram gypsum, 1 gram Epsom, 1 gram baking soda just for the (NA and HCO3) then add phosphoric to get the mash PH to 5.6. It typically takes around 10-12 ml of phosphoric.

Why are you adding acid and baking soda?

Does that see, reasonable? I feel like that’s a lot of acid. Not that I have a frame of reference for thinking that

What is the %?

 

[Gregory T]

Why are you adding acid and baking soda?



What is the %?

40 quarts mash so 12 ml equals .0003 or .03% if my math is right

I add a tiny bit of baking soda because all the water profiles have a touch of NA and HCO3. Certainly seems counterintuitive from a PH perspective

 

[Big Monk]

40 quarts mash so 12 ml equals .0003 or .03% if my math is right

What Acid % is the phosphoric? 10%? 85%?

I add a tiny bit of baking soda because all the water profiles have a touch of NA and HCO3. Certainly seems counterintuitive from a PH perspective

It is. You don't need to match HCO3 from a profile. You shouldn't actually. Ditch the Baking Soda and add Sodium Chloride (uniodized table salt) if you need Sodium.

 

[Gregory T]

What Acid % is the phosphoric? 10%? 85%?



It is. You don't need to match HCO3 from a profile. You shouldn't actually. Ditch the Baking Soda and add Sodium Chloride (uniodized table salt) if you need Sodium.

Phosphoric acid is 10%.

Ok I’ll ditch the baking soda and add just a touch of sodium chloride

 

[Big Monk]

Phosphoric acid is 10%.

Ok I’ll ditch the baking soda and add just a touch of sodium chloride

That will also cut down on the acid you need.

 

[Stand]

Anybody have experience making a wheat beer (I was thinking 50/50 wheat and pilsner) with the trappist strains? I've got the Westmalle strain in my fridge and Chimay in storage. It's been hot as the fiery furnace in NC, and I need something cold and refreshing.

 

[Gregory T]

Anybody have experience making a wheat beer (I was thinking 50/50 wheat and pilsner) with the trappist strains? I've got the Westmalle strain in my fridge and Chimay in storage. It's been hot as the fiery furnace in NC, and I need something cold and refreshing.

Refreshing says Saison to me. I made a Dunkelweizen once. I would not describe as refreshing.

 

[radwizard]

Anybody have experience making a wheat beer (I was thinking 50/50 wheat and pilsner) with the trappist strains? I've got the Westmalle strain in my fridge and Chimay in storage. It's been hot as the fiery furnace in NC, and I need something cold and refreshing.

I do a 70/30 Pils/White Wheat with the Westmalle Strain. It's about 4%. I really like it.

 

[Stand]

What is your pitch temp? I was thinking JUST a bittering addition, so I am not sure where in the range I should shoot. I was thinking start it a little higher since I like esters over phenols in my wheats, but hoping to get some of both.

I do a 70/30 Pils/White Wheat with the Westmalle Strain. It's about 4%. I really like it.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

Phosphoric acid is 10%.

Ok I’ll ditch the baking soda and add just a touch of sodium chloride

FYI...I often find I am adding 20 to 30 ml of 10% phosphoric acid to my lighter beers so your addition seems very reasonable.

 

[radwizard]

What is your pitch temp? I was thinking JUST a bittering addition, so I am not sure where in the range I should shoot. I was thinking start it a little higher since I like esters over phenols in my wheats, but hoping to get some of both.

I pitch at 68 and finish at 74 for that one. I usually brew 10 gallon batches of this one, serving half as is and conditioning the other half with a Brett blend. Both are very nice

 

[Gregory T]

Just got scoresheets for my Tripel

7lb German - Pilsner 38 1.6 41.2%
7 lb Belgian - Pilsner 37 1.6 41.2%
1.5 lb Belgian Candi Sugar - Clear/Blond (0L) 38 0 8.8%
1 lb Finland - Vienna Malt 36 3 5.9%
0.5 lb Briess - Barley, Flaked 32.2 1.4 2.9%
17 lb Total


Challenger Pellet 7.4 Boil 60 min 18.92
0.5 oz Styrian Goldings Pellet 2.6 Boil 60 min 4.43
0.5 oz Styrian Goldings Pellet 2.6 Boil 15 min 2.2
0.5 oz Styrian Goldings Pellet 2.6 Boil 0 min
Show Summary View

Mash

113°F 20 minutes
135°F 20 minutes
145°F 30 minutes
162°F 20 m8nutes
168°F 10 minutes




Whirlfloc Water Agt Boil 10 min.
6 g Calcium Chloride Water Agt Mash 0 min.
1 g Gypsum Water Agt Mash 0 min.
0.5 lb Candi Syrup Flavor Boil 10 min.
0.25 oz Sweet Orange Peel Flavor Boil 10 min.
0.5 tsp Yeast Nutrient Other Boil 10 min.
8 ml Phosphoric acid Water Agt Mash 0 min.
0.5 lb Candi Syrup Other Primary 3 days


White Labs - Trappist Ale Yeast WLP500
Amount:
2
Attenuation (custom):
86%
Flocculation:
Med-Low
Optimum Temp:
65 - 72 °F
Starter:
Yes
Fermentation Temp:
66 °F
Pitch Rate:
1.5 (M cells / ml / ° P) 618 B cells required
Yeast Pitch Rate and Starter Calculator

Fermentation

Pitched at 72°F
Peaked at 82°F day 2
Cold crashed day 20
Bottled day 28
Heated bottles to 80°F for 5 days
Judged day 55


The one that recommended adding complexity made me laugh. I deliberately altered my Tripel recipe for the contest since most judges seem to want a Westmalle Type Tripel. I personally like my more complex recipe better, but it got roasted for its complexity the other time I entered a contest...

Really happy with the 38... boom. First contest since switching to all grain. 4th beer on this equipment

 

[Bassman2003]

Thanks for sharing Gregory. I noticed you are doing an acid rest at 113F. I am torn about doing anything below 130F. Scotty has mentioned this as well. Do you see the flavor benefits in this style (tripel)? Does it bring out cloves as it is supposed to in hefeweizen? Thanks.