All my IPAs taste the same

[Hoptimistic]

Have you tried cold crashing with gelatin? I find it strips some of the harsher hop flavors and leaves the more delicate citrus/fruit character.

i have had the same results

 

[Hoptimistic]

I've kegged my IPAs in all instances except Jamil's Evil Twin. I transfer to secondary after 10 days and the FG hasn't moved for a couple of days. I dry hop in secondary usually for 10 days and then transfer off the hops into a keg immediately. Carbonation takes about 7 days, but you know I'm tasting the whole way through and directly out of secondary and I have yet to have those citrusy notes so I doubt they were ever there.

So it sounds like I need to triple my dry hoping. I thought dry hoping mostly gave an aroma? My IPAs always smell amazing, but it doesn't translate into the taste.

try leaving it in primary for the whole fermentation! my buddy suggested this to me when i was having similar problems and it cured it right up. The best IPA i have ever made was left in primary for the entire fermentation then filtered through a 5 micron filter, and finally cold crashed in the keg w/ gelatin. (i usually pull a couple of pints and the sediment is gone) crystal clear and super fruity!

PM me for my recipe if you like

 

[Hoptimistic]

Maybe if the kettle had a lid/shield that you attach to contain the blast. After the blast, it would settle out into nice, cooled wort ready to pitch. Hmmm.. somebody somewhere has to try this out in a lab somewhere.

yeah but then you have a shrapnel bomb

 

[chezhed]

I'm curious as to the age of your hops and when you are using pellet and when whole leaf or nuggets.
I have found that despite my best preservation efforts, (freezing in vacuum sealed bags kept in dark bags), the hops still lose some effectiveness so I tend to have to increase the hop amounts as they age.

 

[stpug]

I've kegged my IPAs in all instances except Jamil's Evil Twin. I transfer to secondary after 10 days and the FG hasn't moved for a couple of days. I dry hop in secondary usually for 10 days and then transfer off the hops into a keg immediately. Carbonation takes about 7 days, but you know I'm tasting the whole way through and directly out of secondary and I have yet to have those citrusy notes so I doubt they were ever there.

So it sounds like I need to triple my dry hoping. I thought dry hoping mostly gave an aroma? My IPAs always smell amazing, but it doesn't translate into the taste.

If your IPAs always smell amazing then your 5_minute-to-dry_hop additions are working for you. Sounds like you need to work on the 20-10 minute additions; perhaps just doubling up on them (an ounce at 20, 15, and 10 for a total of 3 oz). If you want grapefruit citrus then I would highly suggest using all Centennial for those additions.

Follow a hop schedule that worked for you for late and dry hop additions.

Keep the grainbill at 5-7% light crystal (20L-40L), 93-95% US 2row.

 

[STB]

I think your recipes look good and should give a variety of flavors. I have read that if you dry hop more than a couple of days that you can get some off flavors and I think you said you go a week so maybe cut that back. The other thing was sulphur content maybe too high as that is what brings out the alphas in the hops. I agree with a simplification of process and change one variable at a time keeping the recipe consistent. So do water one batch, different cleaner on all equipment on another batch ect.. Good luck and I hope you find the culprit as we all love a citrusy IPA!

 

[chezhed]

. . . I have read that if you dry hop more than a couple of days that you can get some off flavors and I think you said you go a week so maybe cut that back. . . .

Now that's a new one on me....and I disagree. I dry hop in the keg frequently for the life of the keg.....I've never had "off flavors" as a result.

 

[DrunkleJon]

I think storage temperatures must be a factor in that one. I have had dry hops in a keg in the keezer for over a month with no vegetal flavor contribution. Lost a bit of the hop profile though.

 

[bhanson]

It seems to me that the long cooling time is a very likely problem. You might try adding the flameout hops after it cools to 185 or so. A lot of flavor and aroma hop oils are volatile even below boiling get. Still plenty of heat to sanitize at that point. Use a sanitized spoon to mix in. This will also help cool just a little bit faster.

 

[jabergess]

Thanks all for the feedback! I think the first thing I'm going to do is build a counterflow chiller. That will solve my delayed cooling times. Then I'll probably brew a non-IPA and watch the temperatures and see when I should time my hop additions for my next IPA. I really appreciate everyone's help and it will take me awhile to sort through all the good advice.

 

[jabergess]

With the kegging system as a possible cause, have you made any non IPA's that you have thrown through the same kegs/lines? Does this spicy flavor follow to other styles?
How do the gravity reading samples taste? Is the spicy note there as well?

No, all the other beers taste as they should and don't have a spice to them. The gravity reading samples do usually taste slightly better though... IPAs warm are a different animal all together. But that is a good point!

 

[jabergess]

Here's one:

What are you fermenting in?
Glass is the only fermenters I have that don't end up giving me your problem.

I've used both glass and Better Bottle. Lately it is just Better Bottle, but I figured since the glass wasn't any better that wasn't the problem. Oh and my last beer was a slick Speidel fermenter. I could always try to go back to glass for my next attempt and at least rule that out!

 

[jabergess]

fermentation temps? O2? Pitch rates? Seems like a fermentation problem and not a recipe problem.

Yeah, I suspected fermentation temps so I fermented in a temp controlled freezer last time at 65 and then 68 after 10 days. Still didn't work. I use a starter and typically pitch around 1000 ml. I just use the old shake the hell out of the fermenter trick for O2. If that's the issue I just bought a aeration system (or rather I bought the parts to build one). I think I'm going to do some many changes to my next beer I won't know what fixed it if it gets fixed! lol.

 

[jabergess]

Only reason not to would be for post boil hops addition.

If I could cool instantly to whatever temp I wanted, I would cool first to 170-175 and add post-boil hops, hold temp for about 5 minutes, then cool instantly to pitching temp. Actually, maybe you could just add the hops right after boil and you'd only need to hold for like 20-30 seconds.

Someone needs to come up with an instant cooling device..

What about running a CFC back into your boil kettle until the temp is 170-175 and then stopping the flow to add hops, hold that temp for a few minutes and then starting the CFC back up?

 

[jabergess]

I'm curious as to the age of your hops and when you are using pellet and when whole leaf or nuggets.
I have found that despite my best preservation efforts, (freezing in vacuum sealed bags kept in dark bags), the hops still lose some effectiveness so I tend to have to increase the hop amounts as they age.

I always use pellet hops and they are all kept in the freezer in the nitrogen purged bags. They usually are pretty fresh - I order them from MoreBeer most of the time and then put them in the freezer as soon as I get them. I'm sure I've used some older hops too, but most aren't. If I do happen to open a bag and use a partial I place the partial bag in a foodsaver bag and seal it.

 

[chezhed]

I'm worried about a plate chiller and hops getting stuck in there.

I always use pellet hops . . .

I wouldn't worry about clogging a plate chiller if you are using pellet hops.....

Still might be good to check the dates on the packaged hops....just because they are "fresh" to you doesn't necessarily mean they are "fresh" off the farm:fro:

 

[reuliss]

Here's my suggestion. Tone down the late additions and kill that sucker with dry hops. If you want traditional citrus, use Cascade, Centennial, and CTZ. Maybe Chinook. Heck, use an oz of all four for the dry hop.

You'd be surprised how late addition hops can give you a peppery flavor. I recently visited Heretic Brewing Co., and they have a Rye beer there. They don't use much rye in the grain bill because of stuck mash issues. So, in order to achieve a peppery taste that people expect from rye beers, they simply blast the beer with tons of cascade right at the end. Apparently that hop (and others) can get peppery in high quantities at knock out. This is interesting because Cascade is the king of "grapefruit."

 

[reuliss]

I had another thought as well. Are you dry hopping at room temp? If you're dry hopping cold, you won't get as much oil extraction.

 

[grathan]

I used my speidel tank to collect RO water for my most recent brew. I could taste the Columbus hops in the water from 2 batches ago. I clean fairly well and did a weeklong oxy soak beforehand...

Don't be afraid to make multiple changes to your process. You'll get results quicker and you can always revert back later if something seems unnecessary.


Give whole hops a try for dry/aroma additions.

Also get to know your hop flavors. Perhaps your not fond of spicy hops ,but would not even know if you used them.

 

[jabergess]

I had another thought as well. Are you dry hopping at room temp? If you're dry hopping cold, you won't get as much oil extraction.

I've done both methods of dry hopping. At room temp in the carboy and in a keg while on draft.

 

[m3n00b]

I've done both methods of dry hopping. At room temp in the carboy and in a keg while on draft.

....and??? Any differences you care to share?

 

[jabergess]

Dry hopping in the keg cold the beer tasted greener - grassier. Plus every glass had little hop bits floating around. I'm sure if the thing had turned out citrusy I would have squeezed the hop bag when I was done with the keg. I've never had that grassy flavor from dry hopping in secondary at fermentation temps.

 

[JuanMoore]

Yes, but IME most of what it strips are the harsher flavors. If you're going for aggressive throat-burning bitterness, don't use gelatin. However, I've found that with these harsher flavors removed the fruity/citrus flavors shine through.

I've only used gelatin once, and had the exact opposite experience. Was a 10 gal batch, and I only used gelatin on half, which lost much of the floral and fruity flavors, and only lost a tiny bit of the harsher flavors. The other half without the gelatin was much tastier. Maybe it's hop strain dependent or something.

What cleaner and sanitizer are you using? Peppery/spicey notes for me came before I started using campden tablets to rid the water of chlorine(or chloramine, can't remember which). Since you built your water up on the last beer from distilled you can rule that out, but maybe the chlorine is still the culprit from your cleaner/sanitzer? Maybe there are something in your keg/lines bottles?

This was my initial thought too. Even the batch with distilled water could have been tainted if distilled water wasn't also used in the sanitizer solution for the fermentors and kegs. The chlorophenols caused by trace amounts of chlorine and chloramine often have a spicy or peppery flavor.

Cooling faster is ALWAYS a good idea.

How so? I usually use a modified no-chill method without any issues. I've also done head to head comparisons with the same recipes chilled to pitching temps in just over 10 min.

 

[m3n00b]

I had the same experience. I wont be using gelatin in IPAs anymore.

 

[jabergess]

I think you all have convinced me NOT to try gelatin! Though in my notes I had done that 1 time but I didn't note it as being any better or worse than any other IPA.

 

[jabergess]

Wish me luck, I'm going for IPA #14 tomorrow! I have a new immersion chiller with a whirlpool arm that should give me two things: 1) quicker cooling times and 2) whirlpool hop additions plus it should help me remove the cold break which I used to just dump in the carboy (assuming I even got any cold break with my slow ass cooling times.) I'm going to stay away from cascade this go around and focus on citra and one other not spicy hop - Falconers Flight perhaps, even though it has citra in it. Hmmm. Maybe Soriachi Ace. I'll keep my grain bill simple - mostly 2-row with a little bit of Munich perhaps a touch of honey malt and I think I'm only going to do a primary fermentation and dry hop in there. Oh and I plan on mashing at 150. Someone recommended a 90 minute mash so I'll go for that as well. I'm using RO water this go around and will add chemicals for a hoppy, pale beer. I also checked my house water profile that I use for cleaning and they don't treat with chloramines here so that made me happy. I will report back post haste!

 

[smccarter]

Almost all IPA's taste the same. Call it American Pale Ale, American IPA, etc... and hop the ever living S... out of it with cascade and what do you get?

The same beer that everyone else is brewing in America.

Has it really come to this? That we are a hops nation? America = way hoppy beer? Don't get me wrong, I like a hoppy American pale ale or IPA occasionally, but is that all we've got? We really need to come up with styles that represent more than just over the top bitter hoppy beer.

Am I alone?

 

[jabergess]

Almost all IPA's taste the same. Call it American Pale Ale, American IPA, etc... and hop the ever living S... out of it with cascade and what do you get?

The same beer that everyone else is brewing in America.

Has it really come to this? That we are a hops nation? America = way hoppy beer? Don't get me wrong, I like a hoppy American pale ale or IPA occasionally, but is that all we've got? We really need to come up with styles that represent more than just over the top bitter hoppy beer.

Am I alone?

I don't disagree. However I know when I come across a GREAT IPA. They are few and far between in my opinion. So there is more to it than just hopping the **** out of everything. I've tasted lots of "World Class" IPAs and thought, well geez, that's what mine tastes like and I'm not satisfied with it.

 

[WissaBrewGuy]

Almost all IPA's taste the same. Call it American Pale Ale, American IPA, etc... and hop the ever living S... out of it with cascade and what do you get?

The same beer that everyone else is brewing in America.

Has it really come to this? That we are a hops nation? America = way hoppy beer? Don't get me wrong, I like a hoppy American pale ale or IPA occasionally, but is that all we've got? We really need to come up with styles that represent more than just over the top bitter hoppy beer.

Am I alone?

I too get frustrated sometimes that many brewers have to make IPA's in this country because they know that they will sell but America is MUCH more than just IPA's! We have the most diversified style access in the world with world class beers of all styles being brewed. We have our American versions of the Belgian ales (Dubbels, Saisons, etc) our American Robust Porters, the list goes on! Let me just say that if we grow the best citrusy, piney hops in the world we should use them just like all country's brewers use what is grown in their country (Nobel Hops:Germany as EKG:UK as Citra:_____) but in the US we have used these hops to redefine all styles and I am all about it. Go beer and Go USA!

 

[prohl84]

This was my initial thought too. Even the batch with distilled water could have been tainted if distilled water wasn't also used in the sanitizer solution for the fermentors and kegs. The chlorophenols caused by trace amounts of chlorine and chloramine often have a spicy or peppery flavor.

I think you solved one of my problems!

Almost all IPA's taste the same. Call it American Pale Ale, American IPA, etc... and hop the ever living S... out of it with cascade and what do you get?

The same beer that everyone else is brewing in America.

Has it really come to this? That we are a hops nation? America = way hoppy beer? Don't get me wrong, I like a hoppy American pale ale or IPA occasionally, but is that all we've got? We really need to come up with styles that represent more than just over the top bitter hoppy beer.

Am I alone?

You are not alone. Although I feel IPA when done tastefully (not super overhopped) is a style with as much diversity/ subtlety as any other. I told some people I met at a friend's house recently that I brewed my own and no joke the response was "So you make like IPAs?" I have made a few but they were not exactly what everyone in America is brewing. I like malt bombs personally.

Oddly, SWMBO likes the IPA (I tell her IPAs all taste the same -sarcastically- on a regular basis) otherwise I would rarely make anything uber-hoppy (I am sensitive/ allergic? to them)

On the flip side while there are certainly enough hop varieties available to be creative- hop breeders are developing cultivars (more or less) specifically for American style IPA so I think diversity will only get better in time.

 

[Epimetheus]

I'm gonna make an IPA with 8 ounces of Fuggles.

That should be different.

 

[jabergess]

Just Fuggles and 8 ounces of it?? You'll have to let us know how that turns out.

 

[jabergess]

So just to fill everyone in on my last IPA. It still was spicy and not citrusy. I did a massive amount of changes. I'm still on a search for that special IPA! I can tell you though after having had a lot of commercial examples, my IPAs are still pretty good AND most commercial examples are not citrusy either, even when they claim to be.

 

[tagz]

Maybe you should step back from trying to clone a beer, or make a big hop bomb beer, and make a few SMaSH batches. That way you can adjust just one thing per batch, and trace the source.

If you really want to find out the exact spot where things are going "wrong," the only way to do it is break down your process and analyze every step.

You need to find a process that works for you, and STICK to that process. I tried making a few big IPA's and they sucked, so I took a step back, and started breaking it down, and doing SMaSH batches so I could analyze how every step, ingredient, temperature, etc. was contributing to the final beer.

And a big perk is that SMaSH beers can be delicious.

I also think you aren't adding enough dry-hop. Biologically speaking, aroma (smell) is just as important to taste as actually tasting. Maybe you need to up the dryhop until you find a level that works for you. And there is no doubt that dry hopping changes a beer. I brewed an amarillo-vienna smash, and dry hopped half, and left the other not dry-hopped. The difference was astounding; so much so that the dry-hopped version has been drank and gone, and the non-dry-hopped is sitting around, and I don't think I'll ever drink it.

tl;dr-
Simplify your brew until you know what everything do!

+1 I had similar frustrations with my hoppy beers until I started doing small single hop batches. Hop variety played a huge role in my problem.

I found that some varieties that claim to be citrusy (Amarillo and ahtanum) were herbal and spicy when used in large amounts. I loved simcoe in smaller amounts as well, but a recent batch started getting catty with extended keg hop time. That said, I've found I can use citra in large amounts and I get nothing but clean juicy hop flavor. However, for me citra tastes better with a small addition of a secondary hop to keep from tasting too fruity/sweet. I've also found that I don't like how the hops taste with larger amounts of crystal, so I've reduced my crystal from 10% to 5% over time.

Like me, most of your initial recipes contain 3 different hops. It's really hard to isolate your problem with complex recipes. Hop variety may play a larger role than you think.

 

[thadius856]

I do enjoy a good single hop IPA.

All centennial is definitely my favorite (herbal/floral a la Two Hearted). All citra is pretty good too (citrusy a la Simtra). All Cascade is a classic (piney a la... ?).

 

[jabergess]

So if I were to do a SMaSH batch, would everyone recommend centennial or citra? Or what? I think when the hop is described as "piney" it tastes spicy to me. Thanks for the comments! This is really the only style that continues to be just out of reach for me to make exactly what I'm trying to make.

 

[RonPopeil]

I do enjoy a good single hop IPA.

All centennial is definitely my favorite (herbal/floral a la Two Hearted). All citra is pretty good too (citrusy a la Simtra). All Cascade is a classic (piney a la... ?).

a la everything west coast circa 2005.

if your IPA's are all similar tasting it helps to let them age for a week or two. hop flavors are stable enough to be fresh at 2 weeks but it also gives the beer a bit of time to mellow.

or you can try another yeast.

 

[tagz]

So if I were to do a SMaSH batch, would everyone recommend centennial or citra? Or what? I think when the hop is described as "piney" it tastes spicy to me. Thanks for the comments! This is really the only style that continues to be just out of reach for me to make exactly what I'm trying to make.

Centennial or Citra would be a good choice. Neither strikes me as piney or spicy at all. Centennial is more floral and a Citra is more mango to my taste.

 

[masonsjax]

+1
Citra and Centennial are my favorite varieties for aroma / flavor additions. I've got another pound of each headed my way as we speak as a matter of fact

 

[DrunkleJon]

Centennial or Citra would be a good choice. Neither strikes me as piney or spicy at all. Centennial is more floral and a Citra is more mango to my taste.

Yep. Mango sums Citra up for me. And not mango in the underripe christmas tree sense either.