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I think it's fair to say that most all-in-one systems are not designed for low oxygen brewing. Seems like that could be a niche for future product development, I see for example stout tanks seems pretty serious about low oxygen designs maybe they will come up with something although not sure the all-in-one customer is their target.
https://conical-fermenter.com/blog/low-oxygen-brewing/
To me the current all in ones are designed to deliver a complete and easy to use electric all-grain system with a small footprint. Complete is the key factor...buy this and you can start making beer... not a whole bunch of parts from a bunch of different suppliers. They are aimed at people that enjoy making beer more than they enjoy building brewing systems.

How would someone that was not interested in building a brewing system even know that homebrewed beer is a thing and can actually be really good? Easy...good homebrew is all over the place. A lot of it is just ok but it's just not that hard to find someone that is making beer at home and doing it well. So a quick google search about how to make beer and pretty soon you are comparing various techniques and then stumble across Grainfather or Spike Solo and dang I could be brewing next weekend...

But that isn't the case for low oxygen beer at this time. I've never been offered a low oxygen homebrew. I'd love to try it but it is just not around. Perhaps if more craft brewers go in that direction the instagram kids will follow...
 
Honestly, I think the answers are quite personal ones. If you and others really enjoy your beer and it gets consumed before you notice any "issues," then don't worry about it. If you really enjoy your beer but you feel there are some knobs you can twiddle for possible improvements to various aspects (e.g. long term stability), then LoDO/LOB provides a new set of knobs you can twiddle.

In my opinion, you don't have to go all in, and you may choose how far you want to go for certain beers. For example, I have adopted some very simple host-side practices for all of my brewing, such as a mash cap and underletting (well, the grainfather equivalent), because it was so simple, cheap, and easy to implement (didn't impact my brew day in the slightest). For most beers my simple LOB implementations end here, yet I do believe there is some small tangible benefits to beer stability. For pilsners I go as all in as I can with my system. When really fresh, these pilsners don't taste a whole lot different to me than without LOB practices, though I fully admit to having a pretty poor palate. After a lot of experimentation tasting commercial LoDO brews and making my own I realized that I don't experience the purported taste benefits. The big change is that the (mostly-) LOB pilsners have much better storage properties - they stay fresh for much longer. The hard part is that one can only determine if the knob twiddling is worth it after they actually try it for themselves. As I have outlined, however, making some small positive changes in this direction is pretty easy.

On another note, when I make my annual English bitter to serve as a "cask" ale, I intentionally brew somewhat splashy as it more closely emulates the product I drank while living in England and the beer gets consumed in one night at a party anyways.

So, I see it as some knob twiddling one can do, if they want.
Hear, hear! What HE said ^^^
 
Where do LOX-less base malts shake out with regard to reducing oxidative stress on the hot side? It seems that they may have tremendous 'hot side relative' bang for the buck.
 
For example, I have adopted some very simple host-side practices for all of my brewing, such as a mash cap and underletting (well, the grainfather equivalent), because it was so simple, cheap, and easy to implement (didn't impact my brew day in the slightest).

I am interested in simple, cheap, easy solutions.

Is a "mash cap" something that simply "floats" over the mash? Can Stainless Steel float over the mash? Or is it something more complicated than a SS cap with the right diameter?

In my AIO kettle, the wort is recirculated from the top, but presumably it is possible to adopt a flexible silicon hose that puts the coming wort on top of the mash, below the mash cap.

May I ask for a picture of your mash cap?

Regarding underletting, which I suppose means introducing the strike water from below, would the following procedure work the same?

a) putting the water first in the kettle;
b) put the "pipe" of a BIAP system such as the Grainfather on the kettle, in elevated position ("sparge position");
c) put the grains into the "pipe";
d) slowly lower the pipe so that the water wets the grain from below.

Finally, is there any adverse side effect if one puts the grains in the water (or the water up the grains) when the water is still fairly cold, so that the oxygenation that happens during the dough-in doesn't happen with a relatively hot temperature?
 
I am interested in simple, cheap, easy solutions.

Is a "mash cap" something that simply "floats" over the mash? Can Stainless Steel float over the mash? Or is it something more complicated than a SS cap with the right diameter?

In my AIO kettle, the wort is recirculated from the top, but presumably it is possible to adopt a flexible silicon hose that puts the coming wort on top of the mash, below the mash cap.

May I ask for a picture of your mash cap?

Regarding underletting, which I suppose means introducing the strike water from below, would the following procedure work the same?

a) putting the water first in the kettle;
b) put the "pipe" of a BIAP system such as the Grainfather on the kettle, in elevated position ("sparge position");
c) put the grains into the "pipe";
d) slowly lower the pipe so that the water wets the grain from below.

Finally, is there any adverse side effect if one puts the grains in the water (or the water up the grains) when the water is still fairly cold, so that the oxygenation that happens during the dough-in doesn't happen with a relatively hot temperature?

I'm not very enabled with uploading images, but it is easy to describe. The basis of my mash cap is a stainless steel cake pan I bought for <10$ on Amazon. It is roughly the same diameter as the malt pipe and floats on the mash. My grainfather also recirculates to the top so the recirculation is now delivered through the centre of the cake plate to the top of the mash. I had extra hardware on hand so I used a 1/2 inch quick disconnect and bulkhead to easily connect the recirculation tube to the top side of the cake plate. I used a stainless steel tee on the bottom so that the liquid is returned to the top of the mash and below the cake plate at right angles, so as not to bore a hole in the mash. The bulkhead/tee arrangement was because of what I had on hand. One could envision a myriad of simpler and cheaper solutions.

As for my underletting, it is another simple grainfather hack. First, the overflow pipe really annoyed me, so I got rid of it, plugged the hole in the centre of the false bottom, and put a finer stainless steel mesh overtop of the false bottom to create a better filter. I condition my grain so mashes never get stuck - I can recirculate on full flow if I want. Anyways, I mill the grain directly into the malt pipe. Immediately after milling, I use the procedure you mention and slowly lower the grain-filled malt pipe into the grainfather that already contains my water at strike temperature. Zero foam, zero dough balls.
 
Thanks @hopjuice_71

I use the upper screen filter when I recirculate. I get that you eliminated the upper screen filter and only use the false bottom and the mash cap. I would like to continue using the upper screen filter, on the assumption that the water falls more uniformly on the grains (both as far as volume and temperature are concerned).

It should be easy to split the recirculating flow with a T and pass the two silicon hoses between the mash cap and the upper screen filter.
 
I have an all in one system, and have been following LoDO procedures on the cold side. I have been hesitant to dive into hot side changes though:
I have not seen a great explanation for the practice of avoiding all hot side oxygen, only to blow pure O2 into the wort before pitching yeast. Yeast need O2. Doesn’t the wort oxygenation undo most of the effort of hot side LoDO?
Could someone explain what I am missing?
 
I have an all in one system, and have been following LoDO procedures on the cold side. I have been hesitant to dive into hot side changes though:
I have not seen a great explanation for the practice of avoiding all hot side oxygen, only to blow pure O2 into the wort before pitching yeast. Yeast need O2. Doesn’t the wort oxygenation undo most of the effort of hot side LoDO?
Could someone explain what I am missing?

No, because oxidation happens much more slowly at pitching temperature, and because yeast is quick at consuming oxygen.
 
I have an all in one system, and have been following LoDO procedures on the cold side. I have been hesitant to dive into hot side changes though:
I have not seen a great explanation for the practice of avoiding all hot side oxygen, only to blow pure O2 into the wort before pitching yeast. Yeast need O2. Doesn’t the wort oxygenation undo most of the effort of hot side LoDO?
Could someone explain what I am missing?

The Low Dissolved-Oxygen proponents are not against aeration of wort, although they suggest 8ppm as the maximum (that's a quantity which can be reached with "aearation" without having recourse to "oxygenation") and only after pitching.

http://www.germanbrewing.net/docs/Brewing-Bavarian-Helles-v2.pdf
Generally speaking LODO proponents aim to obtain the subtle malt flavours and hop aroma that would characterize certain styles (Bavarian Helles as far as mal flavour, and NEIPA or such as far as hop aroma) and that would be compromised by even a small oxydation.

If your main beer style is British Mild, a Stout, a Belgian Ale etc. you probably don't have to worry too much.

If your favourite style is Bavarian Helles and you miss that "elusive character" other producers show, then certainly you should investigate this method further.

My personal perception is that in its more extreme form it looks like a good definition of "anal homebrewing" but never say never, maybe in a few years I will be all into it. I am actually glad that some people is making experiments with this technique, which is very "young" and will certainly evolve over time.
 
I have an all in one system, and have been following LoDO procedures on the cold side. I have been hesitant to dive into hot side changes though:
I have not seen a great explanation for the practice of avoiding all hot side oxygen, only to blow pure O2 into the wort before pitching yeast. Yeast need O2. Doesn’t the wort oxygenation undo most of the effort of hot side LoDO?
Could someone explain what I am missing?

It's actually a question of time and sequencing. Oxidation is a continual and cumulative process that can't be undone. What I mean is that any oxidative process that occurs anywhere in the hot side or cold side cannot be reversed or eliminated once it has occurred, and will continue occurring as long as there is dissolved O2 present (or gaseous O2 available to go into solution). The oxidation that happens when you dough-in will be there until the last drop in the last glass is drunk. It will never go away, and will only get more pronounced as time goes by.

While true that we add oxygen to the wort in the fermenter to help boost the start of fermentation, the yeast that we pitch at that time consumes most of that oxygen in very short order. The LoDO process actually recommends to NOT oxygenate the wort until after the yeast has been pitched (the reverse of what we accept to be the "normal" sequence) because the brief time between injecting O2 and pitching yeast will result in a small measure of oxidation that cannot be removed once it occurs. If you use dry yeast there's no real need to oxygenate the wort at all, since the dried yeast granules bring their own glycogen reserves to the fermentation party and don't really need any supplemental oxygen to get started. You could argue that oxygenating a wort that you intend to pitch with dry yeast will actually do permanent damage to your beer.

Focusing only on cold side oxidation ignores the permanent damage already being done to your beer by not addressing the hot side (pre-fermentation) processes. You're only taking steps to reduce further oxidation of beer that's already, to some degree, already oxidized.

TL;DR: In the final analysis what we're doing is not eliminating oxidation because we can never fully do that. What we're doing is reducing D.O. and gaseous O2 as much as we can within reason in an attempt to make better beer. Just remember that the oxidative process, which occurs at virtually every stage in the brewing process, is cumulative, is permanent, does degrade the quality and stability of the finished beer, can't be completely eliminated, but can be mitigated. The degree to which you want to work at improving the final product is a personal decision, as is what is "good enough" to meet your needs and expectations. I've found that incorporating many (not all) LoDO techniques has neither been cumbersome nor extravagantly expensive. YMMV. I have seen a marked improvement in my beers, especially lagers, without a disproportionate investment of time, money or effort.
 
I wish there was a detailed step by step guide to conducting a five gallon LODO brew. If there is would someone tell me where plz?
 
I wish there was a detailed step by step guide to conducting a five gallon LODO brew. If there is would someone tell me where plz?

Indeed, but to keep this on subject, seeing as how I never intended this thread to wind up being moved into the Low Oxygen Brewing Forum, I would like to see this step by step guide be generated to apply to the All In Ones.
 
I wish there was a detailed step by step guide to conducting a five gallon LODO brew. If there is would someone tell me where plz?

I don't know if this is detailed enough:

https://brewingforward.com/wiki/Low_oxygen_brewing
https://www.**********************/the-basis-of-low-oxygen-methodology/
Also, the document which I linked above.

Somebody who practices LODO brewing will probably give you better references.
 
I wish there was a detailed step by step guide to conducting a five gallon LODO brew. If there is would someone tell me where plz?

Sure. I’ll take a stab at it. There are a lot of old posts about low oxygen brewing, and the German Brewers forum online has quite a few links to good information. Many of the links are dead however. Don’t know why, above my paygrade. Unfortunately, the individual who was the defacto resident authority is no longer a participant on this forum, for whatever reason. The articles and the data you’ll come across can get pretty deep, pretty fast. There’s also some silly notions on both sides of the issue that are strongly held pro and con that has caused unnecessary controversy to a topic that shouldn’t be controversial (or adversarial). Sad. We’re just here to talk about making better beer. With that disclosure…..

I’m guessing you don’t want a Doctoral Dissertation. You’re looking for some Cliff Notes on low oxygen brewing, so let me give you my Low Down on LoDO for Dummies Like Me. I started down this path nearly two years ago from a thread and some post on this website. The ideas struck a chord with me so I started incorporating processes a little at a time to see how it worked, but equally important if it worked. As to the “how”, I found most processes easy to incorporate into my work flow. As to “if”, my conclusion was, “Yes, it does.” I’m not an evangelical convert who strictly follows protocols but rather a practitioner who found value in adopting some methods that blend in well with my goals and existing gear. After a few fits and starts, as well as back tracking from some dead ends, here’s what I do:


Night Before: Treat strike water. I de-oxygenate the water in my mash vessel (20L Braumeister all-in-one) with a method known as yeast oxygen scavenging (YOS) that involves adding one gram each of corn sugar and bread yeast per gallon of water pre-heated to about 95F (10 gals. water treated with 20 grams corn sugar/yeast mixture). Turn off the heat, sprinkle the mixture, cover the pot, go to bed. The yeast will consume virtually all the dissolved oxygen in the water in less than an hour, and keep it D.O.-free for up to a week.

Brew Day - Mash: Begin heating strike water, add brewing salts, crush grains. Don’t worry about the water. It will appear milky-white and cloudy from the yeast. The yeast will be denatured by the time the strike water reaches about 130~140F, and the ‘leftovers’ will remain in the grain bed following the mash. Just before dough-in I add ~2 grams of Trifecta blend of ascorbic acid, NaMeta, and BrewTan B which acts as an antioxidant to sequester any O2 that might otherwise get reabsorbed by the mash water during the mash and pre-boil transfer to the boil vessel. Then, dough-in and mash as usual. I’ve gone to full volume mash/no sparge for all lagers to avoid unnecessary splashing after the mash out. I’m not as concerned with ales, and I’ll usually “sparge” the grain bed in a separate bucket and top-off my pre-boil if the volume comes up short. But lagers are no sparge.

Brew Day - Boil: The only changes here are to only maintain a gentle boil rather than a vigorous roiling boil. Don’t worry, the DMS will boil off anyway. I also skim the hot break (“Oh, HORRORS!”). The DMS still boils off. Add hops on schedule. Near the end of boil I add another dosing of Trifecta (usually 1~1.5 grams). It does two things: additional antioxidant protection that carries over into the transfer to the fermenter, and the precipitation of various things floating around in the boil. It also lowers the pH slightly. At the end of boil, chill quickly. The only dispensation to LoDO here is the use of a stainless steel immersion coil instead of copper. Copper is only marginally better at heat transference than stainless, but copper can and will introduce oxides into the chilling wort. Once below 70C I’ll whirlpool and/or hop stand for about :20 minutes. You’ll be astounded at how clear the wort is from, I assume, the Trifecta.

Brew Day - Fermentation: I drain the wort from the bottom of the boil vessel and do a closed transfer with a March pump backwards through the transfer port on my sealed conical fermenter. The dip tube in the fermenter is positioned slightly below parallel with the ground, so the flow imparts a secondary whirlpool inside the fermenter. After transfer is complete I connect the glycol lines and chill the wort to slightly below my desired fermentation temperature. This helps to further settle any suspended solids that remain after the secondary whirlpool. Since the transfer was into a sealed fermenter and the chilled wort has some “carry-over” protection from the Trifecta, I’ll let it sit for an hour or two before pitching the yeast. It gives me time to do some cleanup from the brew day. Then I’ll dump out some settled trub through the bottom dump valve (usually 1~3 liters), then pitch my yeast, THEN oxygenate the wort, provided I’m using a liquid yeast. Dry yeast doesn’t need oxygenation. Let the wort free rise to fermentation temperature, set the controller, and let Mother Fermentation do her thing.

During Fermentation: While the yeasties are busy converting the various sugars into alcohol and CO2, I’ll clean any dirty kegs with PBW followed by a StarSan soak. After a day or so I’ll drain the StarSan and fill the keg to the very brim to overflowing with hot water and ~5 grams of NaMeta. When high krausen has passed, I hook up the blow-off line of the fermenter to the gas-in post on the NaMeta sanitized/de-oxygenated keg. A discharge line is attached to the liquid out post of the keg. The CO2 being released from the fermenter empties the NaMeta water out of the keg. If you have multiple kegs to clean, you can daisy chain them together to save chemicals. Once the liquid has been purged out by the CO2 discharge from the active fermentation, the kegs will be cleaned, sanitized and O2 purged with pure CO2.

Post-Fermentation and Packaging: I’ve gotten away from primary/secondary fermentations and now just do a single stage ferment. Usually it takes 5-7 days for ales and 10-14 days for lagers to ferment, though some ale yeasts are somewhat faster. Once I’m within 5 points of my expected final gravity I attach a spunding valve set to roughly 1 atm/14.7 psig and raise the temperature to 69~70F for both lagers and ales for several days until a stable FG is reached. Then I’ll cold crash to around 35F. Since the beer is pressurized and carbonated, there’s no worries with suck back. After a few days at a stable 35F I can rack to a serving keg in a closed transfer under pressure for conditioning and lagering. I set the pressure on the CO2 regulator to the pressure that matches the desired CO2 volumes for the 38F temperature of my beer fridge and serving kegerator. If I’m lucky, the only O2 exposure my beer gets is the trace amount that’s found in the industrial grade CO2 bottled gas used for transfer and serving.

Soup to nuts, that’s my process. With only a few notable exceptions, the procedures aren’t a whole lot different than what I was doing before I went Loco for LoDO. Many of the steps were integrated over time as I migrated out of plastic and into stainless steel, so nothing really seemed like a radical change at the time. It’s been more evolution than revolution, adding new gear and new methods along the way. But the collective result has been better beer, validated with more ribbons. This is where I am today, which is no guarantee that it’s where I’ll be tomorrow. I remain open to better ways to improve my process and my product.

Cheers.:bigmug:


Edit: Oops my bad. Didn't stop to realize that I'd gotten so far off topic. Apologies to all. Mods please feel free to move as appropriate.
 
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^^^ Broo Brother, thanks for the great writeup. Is Trifecta a packaged thing or do you make it from the chemicals? It seems like I could make a significant difference in my beers with minor tweeks to my process. The one thing for me is packaging. Purging kegs just seems like a huge hassle. Maybe nexst time I brew a hoppy PA or IPA, I'll try it to see what difference it makes. :mug:
 
@Brooothru
May your off-topic be blessed.

If I can prosecute this diversion from the original topic (albeit certainly pertaining to it) I would like to ask:

a) composition of your mash "Trifecta" and of your boil "Trifecta". How much of each component. Specifically sulphites are quite a risk for flavour and something that makes me hesitate in general, quantity is of paramount importance.

b) Do you think as a instinctive opinion that if one bottles the beers (instead of practicing oxygen-free closed transfers) that would render all the effort vain, or do you think (as I presume) that there is nothing wasted in any effort to lower oxygen.

c) Do you use a mash cap during mashing?

d) Is there a specific reason for your use of sodium metabisulphite, or would you use potassium metabisulphite in its stead?
 
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I'm currently brewing with a Anvil 10.5, so this fits into the thread right? LOL Can you use lactic acid instead? I already have that and I use it in the mash, but never in the boil. Do you use the AA in addition to other acid to lower the PH? I have LA 88%, K meta and would only need to get the BTB to have the full monty to at least start LOB. That and doing closed transfers, I have two fermenters that can do that. I think that would be a good start. Thanks everyone for posting. It was easier finding it here than on the "official LODO thread". :mug:
 
Not being one to shy away from trying something new I picked up some Red Star yeast yesterday after watching the Integrity Homebrewing video. The recirculating BIAB system I brew on has a lid, making the yeast oxygen scavenging option a great place to begin reducing oxidation in the mash. Once opened the yeast can be refrigerated or frozen for up to four months, while the treated strike water can be used up to two or three days after mixing.

RedStarYeast-sml.jpg


I'm sure there will be plenty of other things to learn along the way but so far YOS seems easy enough to do.
 
@Brooothru
May your off-topic be blessed.

If I can prosecute this diversion from the original topic (albeit certainly pertaining to it) I would like to ask:

a) composition of your mash "Trifecta" and of your boil "Trifecta". How much of each component. Specifically sulphites are quite a risk for flavour and something that makes me hesitate in general, quantity is of paramount importance.

b) Do you think as a instinctive opinion that if one bottles the beers (instead of practicing oxygen-free closed transfers) that would render all the effort vain, or do you think (as I presume) that there is nothing wasted in any effort to lower oxygen.

c) Do you use a mash cap during mashing?

d) Is there a specific reason for your use of sodium metabisulphite, or would you use potassium metabisulphite in its stead?

A number of people asked about “Trifecta” and my experiences using it, so here goes:

Trifecta is a homemade blend of NaMeta, ascorbic acid, and BrewTan B. It was first proposed by the Low Oxygen German Brewers, and their website had some suggestions on how to calculate additions to your wort as well as impressive data and measurements they’d taken from many test batches. I tried to research what I’d found a couple of years ago but kept getting dead links. I’m not sure if their website and blog have gone private or not. Many of the hyperlinks from this forum (HBT) also fail to open those pages, so I’m not sure what happened there.

I scanned many of my notes from a few years ago and couldn’t find the formula for calculating amounts of the various components of Trifecta, but I did find what I had calculated for my system with a 30L/7.9 gallon mash volume and a 23L/6.1 gallon batch size, so you can reverse engineer the amounts for you own equipment. The numeric values are considered optimum (not too little, not too much) to achieve the best D.O. reduction without affecting the beer negatively.

For the 30L mash treatment I add 1.8 grams of Trifecta which is 0.50 grams NaMeta, 0.50 grams ascorbic acid, and 0.80 grams BrewTan B. This results in 18 ppm ascorbic acid, 18 ppm NaMeta, and 30 ppm BTB.

For the end-of-boil addition I add 1.4 grams of Trifecta which is 0.40 grams NaMeta, 0.40 grams ascorbic acid, and 0.60 grams of BTB into the 23L batch.

BrewTan B (BTB) is a product of Wyeast. Here’s what they say about it on their website:


Brewtan B (formerly called Tanal B) is a 100% natural, high molecular weight tannic acid extracted from renewable plant materials specifically for the brewing industry. Incorporating Brewtan B into your process will improve the shelf life and enhance the flavor and colloidal stability of your beer.

The gallotannins in Brewtan B react with wort proteins through adsorption and precipitation - the Brewtan B/protein complex is left in the spent grains when Brewtan B is added to the mash, or removed in the whirlpool when it is added to the boiler.

It is highly effective at coagulating and flocculating proline and –thiol –containing proteins, but does not interact with foam-positive proteins. This in turn inhibits downstream lipid and protein oxidation, improving flavor stability and shelf life.”



The German Brewers reference the use of NaMeta but not KMeta. It’s not clear from my notes as to why. Perhaps it’s because sodium is a very common anion referenced in calculating beer brewing water whereas potassium isn’t. I do know that I compensate for the additional anions and cations when entering my base water (or distilled/R.O.) into brewing water calculators. I’ve not had any issues with off-flavors.

N.B.:

1). I do use a mash cap, and it does help to eliminate much liquid surface contact with air during the mash. The Braumeister setup pumps mash water upward through the grain bed (contained in a cylindrical "malt pipe") which exits the top of the grain bed and flows down the outside of the pipe. By doing a full volume mash which covers the entire malt pipe, the mash cap prevents splashing and surface contact mixing with the atmosphere.

2). It's difficult to imagine a "good" way to incorporate LoDO brewing with bottling except with a counter-pressure system, and even then there are many opportunities for O2 incursion. I have a DIY counter pressure bottler that works quite well and a Blichmann Beer Gun that doesn't. Both do a good job of getting beer into a bottle, but both methods offer little to nothing as far as long term storage. Perhaps the best way is to practice LoDO procedures up to the packaging stage, then bottle prime with dextrose and condition for a few weeks in the bottle. The yeast in the beer transferred into the bottle will consume much of the O2 that inevitably gets absorbed during filling.

Caio!
 
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Not being one to shy away from trying something new I picked up some Red Star yeast yesterday after watching the Integrity Homebrewing video. The recirculating BIAB system I brew on has a lid, making the yeast oxygen scavenging option a great place to begin reducing oxidation in the mash. Once opened the yeast can be refrigerated or frozen for up to four months, while the treated strike water can be used up to two or three days after mixing.

View attachment 719062

I'm sure there will be plenty of other things to learn along the way but so far YOS seems easy enough to do.

That's exactly the yeast I use as well. Yeast + dextrose + 95F water. Let it sit while you measure and crush your grains. Heat the water to dough-in temperature and dunk the bag. What could be easier?

Now when it comes time to drip drain and squeeze the bag, you're gonna' introduce a lot of splashing and potentially a lot of O2 reabsorbing into the wort. Adding a gram or two of Trifecta will go a long way toward limiting the damage.

YOS and Trifecta on the hot side are two really easy first steps mitigating oxidation and improving long-term stability and flavor.
 
I'm currently brewing with a Anvil 10.5, so this fits into the thread right? LOL Can you use lactic acid instead? I already have that and I use it in the mash, but never in the boil. Do you use the AA in addition to other acid to lower the PH? I have LA 88%, K meta and would only need to get the BTB to have the full monty to at least start LOB. That and doing closed transfers, I have two fermenters that can do that. I think that would be a good start. Thanks everyone for posting. It was easier finding it here than on the "official LODO thread". :mug:
I'm currently brewing with a Anvil 10.5, so this fits into the thread right? LOL Can you use lactic acid instead? I already have that and I use it in the mash, but never in the boil. Do you use the AA in addition to other acid to lower the PH? I have LA 88%, K meta and would only need to get the BTB to have the full monty to at least start LOB. That and doing closed transfers, I have two fermenters that can do that. I think that would be a good start. Thanks everyone for posting. It was easier finding it here than on the "official LODO thread". :mug:

The ascorbic acid is there for for the mitigation of dissolved oxygen rather than for acidification of the wort. I've never noticed the AA having much of an impact on pH however, since the amount is only ½ a gram. I've never compensated for it's effect on pH in recipe planning and my water calculations are usually ballpark. When necessary I acidify with either 88% lactic (usually never more than 3 or 4 ml) or with a few ounces of acidulated malt in the grist. I shoot for 5.4~5.6 pH for most mashes and usually hit it pretty close. Pre-boil I want closer to 5.2 and will add lactic acid if it's too far out of whack.

As to Trifecta, I'd stick to the NaMeta, ascorbic, BTB recipe. Meta and ascorbic are both pretty cheap, and the amounts you need are less than a gram each for a 5 gallon batch.
 
The ascorbic acid is there for for the mitigation of dissolved oxygen rather than for acidification of the wort. I've never noticed the AA having much of an impact on pH however, since the amount is only ½ a gram. I've never compensated for it's effect on pH in recipe planning and my water calculations are usually ballpark. When necessary I acidify with either 88% lactic (usually never more than 3 or 4 ml) or with a few ounces of acidulated malt in the grist. I shoot for 5.4~5.6 pH for most mashes and usually hit it pretty close. Pre-boil I want closer to 5.2 and will add lactic acid if it's too far out of whack.

As to Trifecta, I'd stick to the NaMeta, ascorbic, BTB recipe. Meta and ascorbic are both pretty cheap, and the amounts you need are less than a gram each for a 5 gallon batch.
Thanks for the response. I guess I need to get onto amazon and see what I can find. I know this stuff won't be too expensive. :bigmug:
 
No italian homebrewing supplies distributor appears to sell Brewtan B (glad they changed the name... ;) ).

But I suppose this Antioxin SBT can be an alternative.

It is to note that in its composition there already are both ascorbic acid and potassium metabisulfite, but it is not clear to me whether they are there as stabilizers for the gallotannins or this is some kind of a "trifecta" ready for use.

https://www.mr-malt.it/media/upload/pdf/ANTIOXIN_SBT_scheda_tecnica.pdf
This appears to be a very polite and civilized discussion about the LoDO methods for the average homebrewer, full of information, thanks to all.

EDIT: it seems, from the safety sheet, that there is a lot of potassium metabisulfite and ascorbic acid, so this should be a ready-for-use trifecta:

https://www.mr-malt.it/media/upload/pdf/ANTIOXIN_SBT_scheda_sicurezza.pdf
 
Also of interest is this PDF, "Methods of the low-oxygen brewhouse":

https://www.**********************/...18/01/Methods-of-the-Low-Oxygen-Brewhouse.pdf
 
It is likely that Brewtan B is merely a trade name for gallic acid derived gallotannin or gallotannins. Therefore it seems likely that there should be more than this one single 'trade named' source for it.
 
No italian homebrewing supplies distributor appears to sell Brewtan B (glad they changed the name... ;) ).

But I suppose this Antioxin SBT can be an alternative.

It is to note that in its composition there already are both ascorbic acid and potassium metabisulfite, but it is not clear to me whether they are there as stabilizers for the gallotannins or this is some kind of a "trifecta" ready for use.

https://www.mr-malt.it/media/upload/pdf/ANTIOXIN_SBT_scheda_tecnica.pdf
This appears to be a very polite and civilized discussion about the LoDO methods for the average homebrewer, full of information, thanks to all.

EDIT: it seems, from the safety sheet, that there is a lot of potassium metabisulfite and ascorbic acid, so this should be a ready-for-use trifecta:

https://www.mr-malt.it/media/upload/pdf/ANTIOXIN_SBT_scheda_sicurezza.pdf

Yes, I agree, they both seem to be very similar and should achieve the same result. BrewTan B is a bit difficult to find here in the States as well on a retail level. It appears to have been marketed for commercial brewers instead of home brewers. I certainly don't need a 20 kg bag of it!

Brooo Brother
 
@Brooothru Does the LoDO accessory for the Braumeister impose any limitations on the min or max grain bill and/or batch size possible? What is the max OG you expect you could achieve with your setup without using DME or other work arounds? Could you reduce the batch size to obtain a higher OG, or would this cause problems with maintaining the water level above the malt pipe?

I've been looking at these AIO systems for a couple years and it really annoys me how so many of them seem to unnecessarily slash or spray wort during the mash. This Braumeister with LoDO accessory seems to be one of the few that has given the HSA issue any thought, so wondering whether this might be a good option for me.
 
@Brooothru Does the LoDO accessory for the Braumeister impose any limitations on the min or max grain bill and/or batch size possible? What is the max OG you expect you could achieve with your setup without using DME or other work arounds? Could you reduce the batch size to obtain a higher OG, or would this cause problems with maintaining the water level above the malt pipe?

I've been looking at these AIO systems for a couple years and it really annoys me how so many of them seem to unnecessarily slash or spray wort during the mash. This Braumeister with LoDO accessory seems to be one of the few that has given the HSA issue any thought, so wondering whether this might be a good option for me.

There are actually two different add-on kits for Braumeister AIOs. The LoDO kit on the "20L" , in addition to mitigating O2 pickup, increases the maximum grain weight from roughly 12 lbs to more than 15 lbs. The maximum strike water capacity increases from ~25L to about 30-31L. Since the volumetric capacity is limited by the kettle size, you might have to alter your grain to mash water ratios to make things fit. I try to limit my grain bill to less than 14.5 # and water volume to less than 32L so I can maintain predictable extract from my mashes. I can routinely get O.G of 1.065 and pre-boil volume of ~7 gal, especially if I sparge. It's at least theoretically possible to extract more, but that's as far as I've pushed it. For a DIPA or high gravity Trappist, you'd need to add fermentables to the boil vessel.

The other kit is a low volume kit. Since the Braumeister design draws water from the bottom and pumps it up through the malt pipe, it's possible to expose the electrical heating elements if the strike water volume is too low. What this kit does is substitute a shorter malt pipe , so the elements remain submerged with lesser wort volumes. This kit is designed for roughly half batch brew sessions in the 2.5-3.5 gal. batch size. I'm not familiar with the water/grain ratios with this equipment, but I would think you could make much higher gravity mashes, though lesser volumes, or even lower gravity beers with less grain but more strike water. I haven't used the low volume kit.

There's also 50L Braumeisters that have LoDO and low volume kits. A 50L vessel with a low volume kit could let you brew very high gravity 20L~25L batches.

Braumeister is manufactured by Speidel in Germany. It's built like a tank, and is very robust. I've had mine for close to 7 years and have been very pleased. That said, it was one of the first AIOs to hit the homebrewer market, and is a "mature" product. Speidel's support is good, but there aren't that many "new and improved" modifications coming down the pike.

It's also mostly liters/kg/Celsius, so if your not comfortable with metric measurements, there's that. But compared to the newer competition in the marketplace I still like it the best. If given the choice between a 5 year old Mercedes and a new Hyundai, I'll pick the Benz.

Brooo Brother
 
@Brooothru awesome write up. Thanks!

Do you worry about the oxygen held in the grist during dough-in? Do you add grist to strike water in any special way?
 
@Brooothru awesome write up. Thanks!

Do you worry about the oxygen held in the grist during dough-in? Do you add grist to strike water in any special way?

There are two techniques that address this issue that I partially incorporated into my work flow. One is "underletting" strike water and the other is grain conditioning. In fairness, they were pretty much one-off practices that I tried but haven't kept.

Grain conditioning involves wetting the grain (actually misting it slightly damp) just prior to crushing. The primary purpose is to soften the husk to achieve a gentler crush that is both less destructive of the husk and generates less dust to get a better yield. The argument has been made that it might also reduce oxygen pickup in the grain being crushed. Not sure that I believe it works or at least makes a measurable difference in preventing O2 uptake. What it can do is coat the rollers and create yet another "cleaning opportunity" for me. Diminishing returns, IMHO.

Underletting does have a useful purpose because it avoids the splashing that encourages O2 pickup in the strike water when doughing in. It gets a bit cumbersome though because it pretty much requires heating the strike water in a separate vessel (HLT) and then transferring that pre-heated water into the mash tun backward through the bottom drain port, thus flooding the mash tun (which is already filled with the dry grain) from the bottom upward through the grain bed without splashing. That's a problem with an all-in-one system where the HLT tank, the boil vessel, and the lauter tun are all the same vessel.

When I first started LoDO brewing I would boil the strike water in my old 19 gallon boil pot for 5 minutes to get rid of dissolved oxygen, then chill the water to dough-in temperature, then underlet the water into my Braumeister AIO for the mash. Things were getting cumbersome and time consuming. That's when I started doing the yeast oxygen scavenging technique (YOS) to eliminate dissolved oxygen as well as prevent D.O. pickup during the mash until the temperature at which the yeast begin to denature. I also treat the strike water with a 2 gram dosing of "Trifecta" (ascorbic acid, NaMeta, and BrewTan B) which will sequester O2 throughout the mash, transfer to the boil, and during the boil. By using these procedures I could reach strike temperature without having to boil and then chill the water (time, cleanup of 2nd. vessel, waste of propane, hooking up a March pump, transferring into the BV, etc.). Still, seemed like a lot of work.

That's when I started "underletting" the grain into the water, rather than the other way around. Since the crushed grain was already inside the 'malt pipe', why not slowly lower the malt pipe into the water? It works well, but leaves little room for error in both physically handling the equipment as well as precisely estimating the proper strike water volume to prevent overflowing the BV while in the midst of lowering 15# of increasingly heavy grain. I did that for a few batches before I finally decided to just mash in the grain slowly with a scoop and thus avoiding splashing. My thinking was, the water has already been stripped of O2 (YOS), there's "trifecta" in the mash to absorb and sequester any free O2 pickup, and I'm less likely to create a mess. That's the method I've used on my last half dozen batches and appears to not have had any bad effects on my beer.

I'll add two other things that are important if you want to not waste all the effort that you've expended up to this point brewing LoDO. Mashing with a mash cap will block (most) surface contact between the mash water and the atmosphere that's 20% oxygen and it trying its damnedest to find a way into your wort. The same goes for the boil, where foaming, roiling wort is trying to absorb that O2 through vigorous mechanical action. A low boil will mitigate, though not eliminate, this process. There's a bit of controversy about the low boil, since "conventional brewing wisdom" dictates that we must have a robust boil to drive off all the DMS. Apparently that is not the case, since in fact DMS is not being boiled off as much as it is evaporating, and is perfectly capable of evaporating from a gentle boil as long as there is a sufficient turnover of the wort at the liquid/gas interface. All a rapid boil does is cause the wort to reabsorb new oxygen from the atmospheric air it comes into contact with in a vigorous boil. Ends up that the best way to diminish DMS is to prevent the conversion of SMM into new DMS after the original DMS has evaporated. The best way to do that is to rapidly cool the wort below 185F at the end of boil to prevent SMM from transforming into DMS.

More than you asked for in your question, but these fairly simple adjustments to your hot side protocols will go a long way to eliminating oxidation and making better beer.
 
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Grain conditioning involves wetting the grain (actually misting it slightly damp) just prior to crushing. The primary purpose is to soften the husk to achieve a gentler crush that is both less destructive of the husk and generates less dust to get a better yield. The argument has been made that it might also reduce oxygen pickup in the grain being crushed. Not sure that I believe it works or at least makes a measurable difference in preventing O2 uptake. What it can do is coat the rollers and create yet another "cleaning opportunity" for me. Diminishing returns, IMHO.

Humidifying the grains before crushing is a good practice IMHO regardless of the oxygen consideration. I will therefore introduce a little off-topic.

I found that the exact percentage of humidity is paramount in leaving the rolls clean while in fact having a better crush. I measure 2% in weight and spray the water on the grains while I mix the grains with my arm.
5 kg grains: 100g of water in the spray bottle. Actually some water always remains in the spray bottle, so the actual humidity is a bit less. I wait 10 minutes from the end of the spraying before grinding. The crush is - for what I can judge - optimal and the mill remains "clean", no gunk to be cleaned. If I use too much water, then I have these sticky gunk in the rolls, and that's bad.

I bought a stainless steel mill exactly because I consider grain conditioning important, in any case I think that the humidity left on the rolls is minimal and probably any mill will be able to withstand this use without need to dry the rolls.
 
Humidifying the grains before crushing is a good practice IMHO regardless of the oxygen consideration. I will therefore introduce a little off-topic.

I found that the exact percentage of humidity is paramount in leaving the rolls clean while in fact having a better crush. I measure 2% in weight and spray the water on the grains while I mix the grains with my arm.
5 kg grains: 100g of water in the spray bottle. Actually some water always remains in the spray bottle, so the actual humidity is a bit less. I wait 10 minutes from the end of the spraying before grinding. The crush is - for what I can judge - optimal and the mill remains "clean", no gunk to be cleaned. If I use too much water, then I have these sticky gunk in the rolls, and that's bad.

I bought a stainless steel mill exactly because I consider grain conditioning important, in any case I think that the humidity left on the rolls is minimal and probably any mill will be able to withstand this use without need to dry the rolls.

I suspect that I over-misted the grains when I attempted grain conditioning. I was aware of the mist to grain weight ratios, but either messed up the math or else didn't measure closely enough while subscribing to the "more is better" philosophy. I've heard many beneficial comments about grain conditioning, not limited to low O2 pickup. My original intent was to improve the crush. I was disappointed by the condition of the rollers afterward (an older "Barley Crusher" that has seen more than its share of barley). I really need to attempt the process again to give it a fair evaluation.

I'd love to get a new three roller grain mill but just can't justify the expense since the Barley Crusher is still "functional", though clearly not optimal. What kind of grain mill do you use?
 
@Brooothru

I use a mill which is branded Arsegan and is probably a generic good quality probably Chinese mill which can be found with different names.

https://www.braumarkt.com/en/arsegan-malt-mill-pro-with-stainless-steel-rollers
I paid it €80 in May 2018.

I don't understand the interest for three rollers mills. I suppose this is because the upper part makes a first grind while the second part makes a finer grind. Maintenance (cleaning) is more difficult I presume, and if one needs one can always use a two-roll mill with a second grinding: first grinding more coarse, and then if need be second pass with a tighter setting. For a 20 litres batch, a simple mill is fine.

I am very satisfied with my mill in fact, I think that conditioning is important in obtaining a good grind with only one pass.

I condition like this guy, with a spray bottle and I agitate the grain with the arm. I probably crush a bit finer than him.

 
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@Brooothru

I use a mill which is branded Arsegan and is probably a generic good quality probably Chinese mill which can be found with different names.

https://www.braumarkt.com/en/arsegan-malt-mill-pro-with-stainless-steel-rollers
I paid it €80 in May 2018.

I don't understand the interest for three rollers mills. I suppose this is because the upper part makes a first grind while the second part makes a finer grind. Maintenance (cleaning) is more difficult I presume, and if one needs one can always use a two-roll mill with a second grinding: first grinding more coarse, and then if need be second pass with a tighter setting. For a 20 litres batch, a simple mill is fine.

I am very satisfied with my mill in fact, I think that conditioning is important in obtaining a good grind with only one pass.

I condition like this guy, with a spray bottle and I agitate the grain with the arm. I probably crush a bit finer than him.



Thanks for the video link. That's the exact grain mill I use. The process he used was what I'd done when I conditioned the grain, but obviously I over-did the water. I'll give it a go on the next brew day and pay greater attention to the water volume.
 
I would not let conditioned malt sit longer than a couple of minutes before milling as all you want is for the husk to become pliable and don't want the endosperm to get damp as that's what leads to caked rollers. You can get away with significantly less than 2% water by weight that way.

Also, reserve a pound of dry base malt to run through the mill at the very end to clean and dry the rollers...

Cheers!
 
Also, reserve a pound of dry base malt to run through the mill at the very end to clean and dry the rollers...

I never tried but I would ask, wouldn't dry malt, which is awfully sticky by itself, absorb the water and worsen the situation? Why not using flour, or polenta? That should absorb the humidity without becoming too sticky

Thinking about it, rice flour would probably be best. I have to put it aside when I clean the millstones of the coffee grinder. What I obtain is "rice flour" and if I put that aside, it can double as a nice miller cleaner :)
 

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