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day_trippr

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The dry malt works via mechanical action to scrub out deposits. You might be impressed with how effective it can be :)
And in comparative respects, I can't imagine using flour of any stripe would be helpful in that regard...

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cmac62

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I just spray down the malt until if feels damp and a few kernels stick to my hand, wait a minute or two and grind away. I really seems to make a significant difference with how the grind turns out. :mug:
 
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Ok, I am resurrecting this for a specific purpose, so don't all get your panties in a bunch.

This is in regard to @Brooothru, the "BroooBrother"s recipe for Trifecta.

1. Can regular Wine Tannin be used instead of BrewTanB?
2. Does any other acid work other than ascorbic?
3. You already answered about the difference between NaMeta and KMeta, so Party On, Wayne!

Normally, I don't like lagers, even Italian-style hopped-to-Hell-and-gone ones because of the bubblegum/banana I get from the yeasts (that goes for some ales fermented warm as well). I love bitter, hoppy ales; and I am working on preserving the intensity of the hops, hence my interest in some aspects of LoDO.

Peace,

Reevesie
 

Bilsch

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Ok, I am resurrecting this for a specific purpose, so don't all get your panties in a bunch.

1. Can regular Wine Tannin be used instead of BrewTanB?
2. Does any other acid work other than ascorbic?

Normally, I don't like lagers, even Italian-style hopped-to-Hell-and-gone ones because of the bubblegum/banana I get from the yeasts
1) Nope different animal.
2) No. It's not in the mix for the acidity.

Bubblegum and banana from lager yeast? How warm are you fermenting it?
 
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1) Nope different animal.
2) No. It's not in the mix for the acidity.

Bubblegum and banana from lager yeast? How warm are you fermenting it?
I only fermented one lager-it got infected, so no idea what it tasted like.

I am talking about lagers in general-Mexican, Japanese, American, commercial lagers across the board.
 

Bilsch

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I only fermented one lager-it got infected, so no idea what it tasted like.

I am talking about lagers in general-Mexican, Japanese, American, commercial lagers across the board.
Those aren't taste descriptors I've heard being used for commercial lagers but everyone's senses are different so maybe you are sensitive to those. Anyway good luck with your foray into low oxygen.
 

day_trippr

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I'm not getting the "Italian-style hopped-to-Hell-and-gone ones because of the bubblegum/banana I get from the yeasts" thing, as on my trips to Italy - particularly the Greater Rome area - I was always on the look-out for prototypical brews of the era. Kinda feeling like I missed a turn somewhere? :)

Cheers!
 
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I'm just referencing some of the hoppy Italian lagers that have become popular lately. I think Firestone-Walker makes one, Brooklyn Brewery, but as nice as the hops are in the lager, I still get bubblegum/banana esters, probably from my sensitive taste buds. It's a frustration, but it's my life. It worked well for me as a chef, but not so good with some beers and wines.
 

Bilsch

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It's a frustration, but it's my life. It worked well for me as a chef, but not so good with some beers and wines.
You will be in similar company with the LoDO brewers as most I know have said the same things about their taste senses and was the driving reason for changing brewing methods.
 

Brooothru

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I only fermented one lager-it got infected, so no idea what it tasted like.

I am talking about lagers in general-Mexican, Japanese, American, commercial lagers across the board.
Totally agree with @Bilsch on the recipe.

BrewTan B (by Wyeast) appears to be marketed for commercial breweries, but I've found it in smaller home brew sized amounts at Great Fermentations. It's different than just wine tannin, and a little goes a long way, so it's a relatively minor cost. Same goes for ascorbic acid.

I'm curious about the flavors you are picking up in lagers. Do you notice the same thing in German or Bohemian style lagers using noble hops as well? A well made (Continental) lager should give off floral to spicey, pleasant bitterness, and certainly not the flavors you describe.

FWIW, I'm not a fan of all the juicy, New World hops in lagers (IPLs or Italian) either. If I want hops I'll drink an APA or WC IPA with Northwest or maybe NZ or Aussie hops. But my preferred beer for several decades has been either a Continental lager or American blonde ale.
 

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Total Hijack Alert!!!

I know this is probably an off-the-wall random question, but what exactly is the reason we pre-heat strike water to dough-in temperature? I'm asking since underletting water into the grainbed is a preferred LoDO technique to prevent O2 pickup from splashing. But any risk of O2 pickup is increased with a higher water temperature. Wouldn't it make more sense to mash in at ambient temperature and slowly heat the strike water to mash temperatures?

I can see how a direct-fired mash tun could risk scorching or temperature stratification within the grain column, but in a recirculating mash water system it seems like it would result in a sort of poor man's step mash while also reducing the risk of dough balls and shortening the time to achieve conversion.

I'm sure I'm missing something obvious. Thoughts or opinions?
 

bwible

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Total Hijack Alert!!!

I know this is probably an off-the-wall random question, but what exactly is the reason we pre-heat strike water to dough-in temperature? I'm asking since underletting water into the grainbed is a preferred LoDO technique to prevent O2 pickup from splashing. But any risk of O2 pickup is increased with a higher water temperature. Wouldn't it make more sense to mash in at ambient temperature and slowly heat the strike water to mash temperatures?

I can see how a direct-fired mash tun could risk scorching or temperature stratification within the grain column, but in a recirculating mash water system it seems like it would result in a sort of poor man's step mash while also reducing the risk of dough balls and shortening the time to achieve conversion.

I'm sure I'm missing something obvious. Thoughts or opinions?
I’ll take a shot. My thought is that it has to do with enzymes and specific temps where different enzymes are active. Mashing at lower temps, as a step mash would at least partly include, leads to higher fermentability and a lower finishing gravity. For beers where you want a little more body, it would make sense to go straight to 155, 157, or whatever and not include any rests at lower temps. As I understand it, malt used to be undermodified in days past so brewers used step mashes to correctly mash the grain. Today, virtually no malt is undermodified, so step mashes with lower temp rests are not necessary. In beers where you want a thinner profile and a lower finishing gravity, lower temp rests or lower temp mashes would be appropriate.
 

Brooothru

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I’ll take a shot. My thought is that it has to do with enzymes and specific temps where different enzymes are active. Mashing at lower temps, as a step mash would at least partly include, leads to higher fermentability and a lower finishing gravity. For beers where you want a little more body, it would make sense to go straight to 155, 157, or whatever and not include any rests at lower temps. As I understand it, malt used to be undermodified in days past so brewers used step mashes to correctly mash the grain. Today, virtually no malt is undermodified, so step mashes with lower temp rests are not necessary. In beers where you want a thinner profile and a lower finishing gravity, lower temp rests or lower temp mashes would be appropriate.
I agree with the facts you outlined. The thing is, I almost always do a step mash, actually a Hoch-Kurz mash (German for "high, low"). Dough-in @ 60C/140F, Beta rest @ 62C/144F, Alpha rest @ 70C/158F, Mash-out @ 77C/170F. Mostly I'm wondering what would happen if I doughed-in at 21C/70F, turned on the circulation pump and began heating the water to strike temperature. Usually it takes me anywhere from :20~:30 minutes to heat the strike water from 70F to 144F. A lot of enzymatic things happen in that temperature range like acidification, liquefaction and protein break down, all items which are generally not advantageous (though mostly neutral) to modern well-modified. I'm just wondering if there's something I'm not counting on that could be detrimental to the mash.

I guess since Beta amylase becomes active around 130F that the wort might get a little thin unless I shortened the Beta rest by about :10 minutes, but other than that I'm not seeing the downside. Since it's always been done this way (pre-heat the water, then mash in) there's got to be some reason that I'm overlooking. My mash profile takes around 2 hours, give or take. If that can be shortened by :20~:30 minutes I'd be pleased.
 

bwible

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Since I got my Foundry, I like having the temp control and I have done step mash with it (just because I can) at least once. 😄 I was making a lighter beer though, lager recipe fetmented as an ale.
 

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Loitering in the protein test range could be harmful to your foam. Also it’s best to get above ~143F as soon as possible to inactivate LOX. Another issue is you will have started the clock ticking on beta but are well below gel temp of the starch which could harm your attenuation. It’s good to keep in mind when practicing low oxygen, especially mashing, it’s best to get in and get out to limit the time of exposure to oxygen.
 

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Loitering in the protein test range could be harmful to your foam. Also it’s best to get above ~143F as soon as possible to inactivate LOX. Another issue is you will have started the clock ticking on beta but are well below gel temp of the starch which could harm your attenuation. It’s good to keep in mind when practicing low oxygen, especially mashing, it’s best to get in and get out to limit the time of exposure to oxygen.
Good points. That's the type of information I was looking for. I had neglected to consider gelatinization of the starch and hadn't even thought about LOX since I assumed it was eliminated by YOS and Trifecta. Don't they mostly remove LOX or inactivate it once the YOS is denatured?

I'll be sticking to the proven methodology of heating strike water, then doughing-in.
 

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Good points. That's the type of information I was looking for. I had neglected to consider gelatinization of the starch and hadn't even thought about LOX since I assumed it was eliminated by YOS and Trifecta. Don't they mostly remove LOX or inactivate it once the YOS is denatured?

I'll be sticking to the proven methodology of heating strike water, then doughing-in.
Removing the oxygen from the water is relatively easy, on the other hand getting it out of/off of the grain is nearly impossible. Even with a lot of meta in the strike water you are going to get a non-zero amount of O2 at the beginning of the mash and LOX will do some damage unless it's thermally deactivated. That being said, a strike temperature which is too warm will tend to swell the grain and trap air bubbles especially in finely milled grist. The more air that is entrained the worse the DO spike on dough in, so it's a balance.

There has been a great deal of work done on best practices for low oxygen mashing and would agree it's a good idea to stick with proven methodology.
 

Brooothru

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Removing the oxygen from the water is relatively easy, on the other hand getting it out of/off of the grain is nearly impossible. Even with a lot of meta in the strike water you are going to get a non-zero amount of O2 at the beginning of the mash and LOX will do some damage unless it's thermally deactivated. That being said, a strike temperature which is too warm will tend to swell the grain and trap air bubbles especially in finely milled grist. The more air that is entrained the worse the DO spike on dough in, so it's a balance.

There has been a great deal of work done on best practices for low oxygen mashing and would agree it's a good idea to stick with proven methodology.
Thanks for the explanation. I wasn't aware of the cause or deleterious effect of LOX during mash. Given that LOX is neutralized in the high 140s F, is it poor practice to perform Beta rests at 144F-145F range? Beta amylase activity peaks at ~143F, but is still active well past that point. Perhaps doughing-in at greater than 145F and conducting a Beta rest at that point would be better from an LOB perspective?
 

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Today, virtually no malt is undermodified, so step mashes with lower temp rests are not necessary.
Alright, I'll bite. I am under the impression German malts aren't modified to the extent of those malted in the US and that it's good practice to incorporate a short protein rest and step mash on German lagers. I have been on a lager kick lately and have not experienced any issues with head retention personally. I often see step mashing gets labeled as 'unnecessary', but I have found it to be a great tool for fine tuning.
 

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Alright, I'll bite. I am under the impression German malts aren't modified to the extent of those malted in the US and that it's good practice to incorporate a short protein rest and step mash on German lagers. I have been on a lager kick lately and have not experienced any issues with head retention personally. I often see step mashing gets labeled as 'unnecessary', but I have found it to be a great tool for fine tuning.
I used some BestMalz pils last year after reading an article that quoted their head malster who said that in his opinion a protein rest was necessary to get the full benefit of their grains. The specific one I was using was MaltGems.

I almost always do step mashes but have stopped doing protein rests for my lagers, mashing in just a couple degrees F below my targeted Beta rest temperature. I did a protein rest with the BestMalz, but due to the crush (MaltGems only comes pre-crushed) I was getting a lot of grain blowing past the recirculation screen in my mash tun. Long story short, the mash was a disaster and I can't really speak to whether the protein rest did anything or not. The salvaged wort did make a drinkable beer, but it had a perpetual chill haze that never fully went away. Still have 10# of MaltGems that I don't know what to do with.

Since BestMalz seems to be a very popular commercial malt among brewers, either the pro brewers think it's undermodified, or that it needs a protein rest because that's the way they've always done things.
 

bwible

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BestMalz Pilsen is what I have too. I bought a sack of it from a local brewpub here because I could not get to my “local” homebrew shop, which is over an hour away. Mine was also pre-crushed. I like it.

The question was why would brewers heat mash water to temp and mash in at temp rather than just mash in cold and heat up/step up. Maybe I got off topic a little. I’ve been reading about Hockkurz and I don’t see a problem with it for lagers. If I were making a stout or an IPA I would not step mash.
 

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Thanks for the explanation. I wasn't aware of the cause or deleterious effect of LOX during mash. Given that LOX is neutralized in the high 140s F, is it poor practice to perform Beta rests at 144F-145F range? Beta amylase activity peaks at ~143F, but is still active well past that point. Perhaps doughing-in at greater than 145F and conducting a Beta rest at that point would be better from an LOB perspective?
The deactivation of LOX is temperature and pH dependent and in the mash that is at 62C. No real surprise then that the most common first rest temp in German macro breweries is the same.

This idea that Continental malts are under modified still persists in homebrew circles but can be easily checked on the malt analysis sheets available from every European maltster by looking up the code on the bag. I haven’t seen anything less than fully modified in many years.
 

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I know this is probably an off-the-wall random question, but what exactly is the reason we pre-heat strike water to dough-in temperature? [..] Wouldn't it make more sense to mash in at ambient temperature and slowly heat the strike water to mash temperatures?
I think there are two main reasons:

the first is that the count of the mash minutes in the phase should be repeatable, or you executing a given recipe. If you dough in the grains, and then make a long step-up to the first mashing temperature, and then leave the grains in the water for the duration of your mashing step, you have probably let the enzymes work more time than if you do mash-in with hot water. It's not any more predictable, because everybody will have a different ramping speed. One should use a recipe which is calculated for that kind of ramp-up;

the second is that many homebrewers, especially on the other side of the Ocean, use a plastic "picnic cooler" to mash, and that works if both the cooler and the strike water is at temperature at the beginning of the mash.
 
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