All grain issues, off flavors, Low PH?

[albion85]

Bit of a rant here, but I'm at rock bottom with brewing. I've been brewing for only 8 months but in that time I have had only 1 successful batch that I would consider to be tasty. I'm just going to lay it all out in the hope that a more experienced brewing can offer me some advice so I can get on track here.

I've been having a number of issues. First I brewed about 3 extract batches with steeping grains. All of these ended up with a sort of sweet aftertaste that ruined the beer for me. I ended up putting this down to the controversial "extract twang" as i saw a number of people describe the same off flavors as me which went away after moving to all grain. So I moved onto BIAB brewing, and to be fair that flavor did go away.

I started doing BIAB but my first beer had a sort of puckering sourness to it. I'm not sure whether it would be considered vinegar or not, I'm pretty terrible at determining these off flavors, but it does have a real strong aroma to it which is sort of musty, and the flavor, while not horrifically sour or anything, does make one pucker up. From what I have read this could be either sourness from an infection, or astringency.

This weird off flavor has been in 3 of the 4 batches all grain I have done now. I am so vigorous with my sanitation, going really overboard in the case that this issue is indeed an infection. The only beer I had that didn't have this was an English Ordinary Bitter. Perfect it was, nice and clean. My only tasty beer so far. I then had a bit of a thought, the 3 times that weird sourness taste came up was when I was brewing darker beers. Not super dark but like a brown with a fair bit of crystal and some chocolate malts. The water I was using was Walmart spring water. So perhaps It's the PH I thought and I set about trying to learn about mash PH and water chemistry

The problem is I don't own a PH meter and cant be buying one just yet. So i thought the best option would be to buy distilled water from Walmart and then use EZ water spreadsheet and Bru n water spreadsheets to build my own water profile. I matched the profile of a pale ale and added 2 oz of acid malt to lower the PH to 5.5 as per EZ water. After measuring this out perfectly and adding my salts and grain to the mash, I used PH strips, but they stayed completely yellow. I then tried them out on the distilled water which I believed should of had a PH of 7, but they still stayed completely yellow. I then tried them on some other things in the house. My tap water changed to brown, as did some milk. But my mash and my distilled water never changed. So I was a bit stumped as to whether my mash ph was indeed super low, which it shouldn't be as I matched everything inside those spreadsheets. I went ahead and brewed but after adding my yeast there has been absolutely nothing going on inside my fermenter.

So thats about where I am now. Sorry for the super long post but its been a bit of a failure for me at this point and I'm wondering what to do now. What would cause this musty sourness? Why would distilled water's PH be so low? Should I go back to extract until I can purchase a PH meter? And if so how do i not end up with sickly sweet beers? Lots of questions swirling about. I hope someone could perhaps offer a bit of light on this because at this point I'm feeling utterly defeated.

 

[JLeuck64]

I would try brewing that bitter again, the one you had success with. This time around brew it with just your tap water. Don't do any thing with the PH, just get the volume of water you need for a full boil and brew it.

That sour taste you're describing reminds me a bad yeast starter I made once. You are making a yeast starter and over pitching I hope? If not I would encourage you to give it a try.

The other thing that sour taste your describing reminds me of is the lesson I learned while trying to brew through the summer months (before I built a fermentation chamber). Yeast can't tolerate getting to warm or wild temperature swings during fermentation. So if you're using a store room/closet etc... think about how to control fermentation temps better.

Once I got those two things dialed in the beer I was making with just ground water from a well started tasting pretty darn good! I still haven't touched the water chemistry part yet... but I may some day.

You didn't mention your equipment set up which might also help with figuring out what's going on. BIAB I'm not familiar with... how are you cooling down the wort after boil?

 

[albion85]

I am using dry yeast which i just put directly in, seems like most people have success this way even if its not rehydrating it. As for temperature, I have been dunking the kettle in an ice bath and then pitch. I probably do pitch a bit on the high side but i then put my fermenter into a swamp cooler which gets the temp down by the time the yeast kicks off. During fermentation I use a fermometer on the side of the carboy and I manage to keep it in the low 60's. Usually use Nottingham Danstar.

As for the BIAB, im basically mashing inside an igloo water cooler, but i use a bag to hold the grains which at the end of the mash i simply lift with 1 hand and then sparge with some water by pouring over the bag.

 

[Rdom]

Can you clarify exactly when you're pitching the yeast? What is the temperature of the wort when you pitch? It sounds from what you wrote that you're pitching the yeast and then trying to cool the wort down, is that what you are doing? If the temp of the wort is too high when you pitch, you may be killing a large portion of your yeast and then relying on a small amount of stressed yeast to finish the job, which could lead to off flavors.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

You should get a copy of your local water report. You might not need distilled/RO water, or might only need to mix it 50/50 with your tap water. It's important to know Carbonate/alkalinity, Calcium, Sulphate, Sodium, Magnesium and Chloride. Most water authorities are happy to give this information if you tell them it's for brewing.

Spring water is not good to use unless you know the mineral content and plan for it - they can be quite high in minerals.

As you're only having a problem with dark beers, it could be that your mash pH is too low, but from my understanding that would lead more to a problem with conversion and mouthfeel rather than off-flavours.

To rule out infection, boil for at least 10 mins anything that comes into contact with the wort after the boil. Replace anything you can't boil (eg. fermenter). How are you chilling?

To rule out water, use all RO or distilled water and follow the guidelines here
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=198460

If neither of those solve your problem, it's a process issue.

 

[albion85]

You should get a copy of your local water report. You might not need distilled/RO water, or might only need to mix it 50/50 with your tap water. It's important to know Carbonate/alkalinity, Calcium, Sulphate, Sodium, Magnesium and Chloride. Most water authorities are happy to give this information if you tell them it's for brewing.

Spring water is not good to use unless you know the mineral content and plan for it - they can be quite high in minerals.

As you're only having a problem with dark beers, it could be that your mash pH is too low, but from my understanding that would lead more to a problem with conversion and mouthfeel rather than off-flavours.

To rule out infection, boil for at least 10 mins anything that comes into contact with the wort after the boil. Replace anything you can't boil (eg. fermenter). How are you chilling?

To rule out water, use all RO or distilled water and follow the guidelines here
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=198460

If neither of those solve your problem, it's a process issue.

isnt that pretty much what i did by using distilled water and building the salts up using the EZ water spreadsheet? Why would this current batch not be fermenting and the PH strip not registering if i built up the water with distilled?

 

[Gnomebrewer]

isnt that pretty much what i did by using distilled water and building the salts up using the EZ water spreadsheet? Why would this current batch not be fermenting and the PH strip not registering if i built up the water with distilled?

The pH strips are notoriously inaccurate (I've never used them personally as I have access to a high-end pH meter).

The primer I linked above is MUCH simpler when you're starting out and will give very good beer.

The only way I can think of that would mean there was no fermentation would be if there was no conversion during the mash. Did you do an iodine test? (I never do, but it will tell you if your starch has been converted). The pH could, in extreme circumstances, stop conversion (but unlikely). How are you gauging fermentation? Airlock activity, or gravity readings? Airlocks are an unreliable measure, as a leaky fermenter will stop the airlock from working (4 out of my 7 fermenters leak).

 

[albion85]

So the PH would be unlikely to be the culprit of the slight sourness i'm experiencing? Could it be an infection?

 

[dokken5]

So the PH would be unlikely to be the culprit of the slight sourness i'm experiencing? Could it be an infection?

First I want to say that you are not making mac N cheese here brother. This is going to take some time and practice.

I don't think infection is your problem in as much as your fermentation temps are. Make sure that you are not pitching yeast into warm wort. Let is sit for a day before pitching. There is nothing wrong with that.

Aerate the crap out of your wort too. If you are pitching into boiled and cooled wort without re-aerating, your yeast cells cant breath.

And off flavors? Until you become pretty much a complete beer nerd, and really learn how to control your equipment, ingredients, and environment, you can plan on those.

 

[clickondan]

Sorry to hear you've been having trouble. I've definitely been through that. For me, brewing a beer that I love is about doing lots of little things right, so I'll just brain dump a bunch of stuff here for you.

Water: I think using distilled is a good idea for you, until you can get a run of great beers. This way, you know exactly what's in your water because you built it. I like the Brewer's Friend water calculator, but those other ones should do fine for you I'd imagine. If you enter distilled water, and you're inputting the correct info about your grain bill, then doing what the calcs tell you to do will get you in the ball park enough to rule out water issues and mash pH as a major issue.

Mashing: Make sure your thermometer is calibrated. If you didn't calibrate your thermometer yourself, you should probably assume that it's wrong. Before the boil, taste the wort and see if you can identify any of the off flavors you're talking about, especially astringency. If you can't, you are probably actually OK up to this point.

Boil: Keep a nice rolling boil going. If you're simmering, you might be creating off flavors.

Post boil & cooling: This is really where a lot of stuff can go wrong. Everything that comes in contact with the wort at this point needs to be sanitized either by heat or by a sanitizer.

Yeast: I wouldn't expect Notty to make a bad beer pitching dry, but you might try swapping it out for S-05 as part of your troubleshooting, it might be a bit better with that method. In order to eliminate this as a trouble spot, pitch at the same temp you want to ferment. I'd shoot for 64-70 with either of those yeasts.

Oxygen: You need to get oxygen into the wort somehow at this point. If you're not, you could be stressing the yeast and creating off flavors. Shaking the closed carboy vigorously for several minutes has always been good enough for me.

Fermentation: Don't let the temperature change at all during active (visible) fermentation. If you're allowing temp swings of any degree, you could be causing flavor issues. After visible fermentation is over, you can be a bit more lax about it.

Resting: When you think the beer is done, take a couple gravity readings a couple days apart (everything here has to be sanitized). If they remain the same, leave it a couple more days for good measure.

Bottling or kegging: I can't remember if you said you bottle or keg, but either way, if you cold crash, make sure that you put in a regular airlock, and if you were already using one, replace the sanitizer in there with new sanitizer or vodka. Some will inevitably get sucked into the beer by negative pressure.

Bottles, kegs and everything else at this point needs to be cleaned and sanitized before it touches the beer.

Some of the things that I feel could cause flavors similar to what you're talking about, in order of what I think it might actually be, based on what you've said:

- the beer is just green
- pitch and/or fermentation temp issues
- too much yeast remaining in suspension in finished beer
- fermentation process cut short
- lactic or acetobacter infection
- combo of too high mash pH and too high of sparge temp
- too much sanitizer has made its way into the finished beer
- you are particularly sensitive to a certain flavor component and need to isolate it and eliminate it from your ingredients or your process
- bad hops

 

[clickondan]

Followup thoughts:

- Water and chemistry: Practice restraint. Until you figure out where the issues are coming from, use low mineral profiles, and just generally think about what you shouldn't add, more than about what you should add.

- Infections: Once you start cooling, do not let anything touch your wort that isn't sanitized. Dip your hands in sanitizer (or spray them) regularly, and shake excess off (not around your wort). Fruit fries, brew area dirty, things like that can all cause infections. It's not that this happens a lot, it really doesn't. But if it happens consistently, then the source needs to be found.

Sanitizer: make sure you're following the instructions for dilution and usage, and mixing fresh sanitizer for each brew session (until you nail down the issue somewhere else).

Cleaner: make sure whatever cleaner you use for your mash tun and fermentation vessel, has been thoroughly rinsed out before sanitizing.

Post fermentation oxidation: I forgot to add this to my list of things that might be causing this taste issue. Follow strict procedures to make sure you're not intoducing oxygen to your beer during racking, kegging, bottling, etc. If kegging, make sure you purge your keg with CO2 right after you fill it.

 

[albion85]

Thanks clickondan, thats a great overview. I appreciate that. I will try to stick to that as much as I can. The main limitation I have right now is the lack of a fermentation chiller, i'm just chucking ice bottles into a swamp cooler, which does get the temp down but there is no way to control the exact amount or swings in the temp. I am currently kegging, but before that I was bottling and the slightly sour off flavor has been in all regardless of keg or bottles. The only issue I had prior to this with extract was the overbearing sweetness to all of my brews.

 

[BigusD]

Are you taking gravity readings? Sounds like fermentation issues to me. I'm thinking under fermentation would leave a sweet taste, and temp fluctuations/stress creates off flavors.

 

[McKnuckle]

"The only issue I had prior to this with extract was the overbearing sweetness to all of my brews."

That means it's not the water - pH is very important when mashing all-grain, but is essentially unimportant (within reason) with a simple extract boil. Unadulterated spring water will be fine, or ameliorated with a bit of CaCl to bump up the Calcium a bit. I've brewed successfully with 100% Poland Spring or Acadia several times.

I'll add another voice to the mix that sees red flags with your fermentation practices... you are likely tasting fruity esters - they can be quite disgusting.

If you can afford kegging, you can definitely get an immersion chiller. Get the wort down at least below 70F *before* a single yeast cell touches it, and then make sure it gets to 62-65F quickly - within 24 hours. Wait overnight if you have to. It's essential.

Yeast begins to throw esters during the early growth/lag phase which begins as soon as it assesses the environment of your wort and finds it sub-optimal. The cooler temps you're reaching later are too late to matter at that point.

Also, properly hydrate the yeast so the cell count is optimal. Try using S-05 because it's a little cleaner, and most British yeasts like Nottingham are estery/fruity by nature, and harder to control. Save those for once you get your practices in order.