All Grain Isn't Working Out

[Kerrbrewer]

+1 on the spray aerator

 

[normonster]

...just water that works...

Nothing wrong with that man!

YMMV over time as well. If you like to design recipes with basic ingredients (which I assume you do), then the water additions, unique to your recipes and targeted to style, just become more ingredients to play with.....I think it's fun at least.

 

[55x11]

Not sure why so many people think you need to dive right into water chemistry. I would say that your symptoms - low attenuation and off flavors - are more indicative of a problem with yeast health, fermentation process and perhaps sanitation. I am not saying you should never learn about water chemistry but that's not your #1 priority. Probably not even top 5 at the moment.

Start with good healthy yeast. Use liquid if you can. Use a starter. Good sanitation and temperature control which you already have. Some patience. Read some literature and keep educating yourself.

 

[55x11]

Not sure why so many people think you need to dive right into water chemistry. I would say that your symptoms - low attenuation and off flavors - are more indicative of a problem with yeast health, fermentation process and perhaps sanitation. I am not saying you should never learn about water chemistry but that's not your #1 priority. Probably not even top 5 at the moment.

Start with good healthy yeast. Use liquid if you can. Use a starter. Good sanitation and temperature control which you already have. Some patience. Read some literature and keep educating yourself.

Let me just clarify something on the water issue. I know it's a controversial opinion perhaps, as many people disagree. but I stronglu believe the following:

1. You need to make sure you take care of the basics first - sanitation, mashing, health yeast, temp. control, fermentation issues etc. before you even start thinking about your water chemistry.

2. The reason is the "simple" solutions can be done quickly and easily and cheaply (for the most part) and will give you the biggest bang for the buck. Starting to worry about your water and blaming your water for your under-attenuated beer is just counter-productive - that's not your problem. There are so many solutions that are literally "20% or 50% improvement for a few minutes of work/research" where is water chemistry is more along the lines of "1-5% improvement for about 40-100 hours of work/research"

3. Water chemistry is somewhat complicated and takes a lot of time to figure out if you actually want to know what you are doing instead of just blindly following what some software tells you. Even for scientists like myself it's complicated mess. It's like a complex Rube-Goldberg machine where you tweak one thing and it affects 10 other things, and you must have some common sense to decide whether those changes are significant or not.

Having said all that - you should run your water through water filter to remove chlorine and other stuff. If you already do that - I believe there are about 10% of people who have terrible water and really really need to fix it ASAP. And then there are 90% of us who have semi-decent, maybe even very good water - we can still squeeze out a few percent improvement for some styles, but we will be ok if we don't.

So the crucial first step is to figure out if you are one of those 10% of if you are kind of Ok for now.


Look up your city water profile here:
http://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/water-profiles/

Plug it into some brew software (beersmith for example), along with some "target" water profile and see how badly you are off. But in the meantime, worry about everything else (fermentation, yeast health, temp control etc.)

 

[Yeastieboy]

Don't buy another one, just put the one you have in a tube of tap water. If it reads

Get lost...

 

[ferm.adventures]

A trick for your mild that had a high FG. Add a tsp of Amylase Enzyme to your fermenter. It may help break down your wort further to ferment it out a bit more.

 

[ferm.adventures]

On your other issues, it sounds like fermentation problems. I would make sure you pitch plenty of healthy active yeast. If using dry, rehydrate in water, not wort. Ensure that your wort is aerated well.

For my Ales, I use 1056 (us-05) exclusively in stir plate starters. Washing yeast makes liquid yeast cheap. I ferment at 65 with a 2 stage temp controller - with the probe in a thermowell. Fermentation is usually pretty clean and competes the bulk of fermentation in 4 or 5 days. Leave a few days to a week. Rack to a keg, add gelatin for fining and cold crash/carb.

 

[normonster]

Let me just clarify something on the water issue. I know it's a controversial opinion perhaps, as many people disagree. but I stronglu believe the following:

1. You need to make sure you take care of the basics first - Obviously.

2. The reason is the "simple" solutions can be done quickly and easily and cheaply (for the most part) and will give you the biggest bang for the buck. Starting to worry about your water and blaming your water for your under-attenuated beer is just counter-productive - that's not your problem - if you read the beginning of the thread you'll see that the other issues have been addressed, not to mention this isn't a second point, it's an explanation of your first point..

3. Water chemistry is somewhat complicated and takes a lot of time to figure out if you actually want to know what you are doing instead of just blindly following what some software tells you - BS. You can start with RO and make additions to create a waterprofile by just following what some software says, 100%. Further, you can read the available literature and begin to tweak concentrations according to...yes, what a book says. People mash and do all kinds of stuff without any clue as to the science behind it. For a scientist, you appear to have little exploratory spirit.

Having said all that - you should run your water through water filter to remove chlorine and other stuff - Why bother. Just use RO and be sure.

So the crucial first step is to figure out if you are one of those 10% of if you are kind of Ok for now.


Look up your city water profile here:
http://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/water-profiles/

Plug it into some brew software (beersmith for example), along with some "target" water profile and see how badly you are off - You just told him not to trust what "some software says". But in the meantime (or at the same time and previously covered int his thread), worry about everything else (fermentation, yeast health, temp control etc.)

Don't listen to "scientists" like this guy - he doesn't even realize that water has an affect on attenuation and likely isn't even practicing any water chemistry himself. Not to mention, discouraging other brewers to increase their knowledge? WTF.

.......Starting to worry about your water and blaming your water for your under-attenuated beer is just counter-productive - that's not your problem. ...

Adjusting water from RO is easy, and you CAN do it by following software. Monitoring pH is easy, and you CAN do it with a little handheld machine. Learning the affect of higher or lower concentrations of some particular water ion in your water profile, as it applies to the flavors of your beer, is, yes, EASY. We're talking one single book.

 

[BeardedBrews]

Adjusting water from RO is easy

This is true.

From the brewing science forum you can get the simplest approach to good all-grain water:

(REF DeLange) Baseline: Add 1 tsp of calcium chloride dihydrate (what your LHBS sells) to each 5 gallons of water treated. Add 2% sauermalz to the grist.

Deviate from the baseline as follows:

For soft water beers (i.e Pils, Helles). Use half the baseline amount of calcium chloride and increase the sauermalz to 3%

For beers that use roast malt (Stout, porter): Skip the sauermalz.

For British beers: Add 1 tsp gypsum as well as 1 tsp calcium chloride

For very minerally beers (Export, Burton ale): Double the calcium chloride and the gypsum.

These recommendations should get you a good beer if not the best beer. To get the best you should vary the amounts of the added salts noting carefully whether a change benefits or detriments your enjoyment of the beer. Additional sulfate will sharpen the perceived hops bitterness. Additional chloride will round, smooth and sweeten the beer. Add or decrease these in small amounts.

 

[55x11]

Don't listen to "scientists" like this guy - he doesn't even realize that water has an affect on attenuation and likely isn't even practicing any water chemistry himself. Not to mention, discouraging other brewers to increase their knowledge? WTF.


Adjusting water from RO is easy, and you CAN do it by following software. Monitoring pH is easy, and you CAN do it with a little handheld machine. Learning the affect of higher or lower concentrations of some particular water ion in your water profile, as it applies to the flavors of your beer, is, yes, EASY. We're talking one single book.

Ugh...

I am trying to set a priority list. I never argued that NOBODY should ever attempt any water chemistry. It's just that in this particular example, the OP should focus on other issues first. Once he fixes those, he can play with chemistry all he wants.

For most people, health yeast and fermentation and sanitation should be at the top. Water chemistry should be at the bottom - as long as your water source is "Ok". So the key is to figure out if your water is really terrible or not, as I said above.

And no need to make personal baseless accusations. I do have a PhD (what is your highest degree, Mr. "scientist"?), I am an actual "scientist" and I do active research in physical sciences. I do water treatment for my brewing (although not all the time), but I don't start with RO water (sometimes cut it by 50% or less) - and since I have pretty decent water to start with, most styles don't require much additions at all. So what I said holds true - look up your city water and figure out if your water is really that bad first.

I just think it's a bad advice to tell everyone to start with water chemistry.

Everyone need to focus on basics first. Poor attenuation and sweet-tasting beer is most likely result of poor mashing or yeast stalling. Those are the areas to focus on first. If you want to expand your horizons on water chemistry, that's great - but advanced methods (which is where water chemistry belongs) should be attempted after basics are covered.

You may argue water chemistry is "easy", but I bet anyone who claims that couldn't really explain what they are doing and why - they are just following some blind recipe from software. That's not "understanding" - if you want to actually understand even basics of water chemistry, "WHY" you are adding this acid or this mineral - it's actually quite complex. And I would encourage everyone to understand "WHY" aspects of brewing, from mashing, yeast, and grain down to water, not just robotically follow some blind instructions like a robot. Otherwise you can't improvise or innovate.

Similarly to recipe building - you can copy someone's recipe line by line, any idiot can do that - but designing your own recipe with some idea of what each ingredient is doing there, that requires some basic knowledge and understanding.

In any case - I claim the OP has more fundamental problems than just water chemistry.

 

[eric19312]

Not sure why so many people think you need to dive right into water chemistry. I would say that your symptoms - low attenuation and off flavors - are more indicative of a problem with yeast health, fermentation process and perhaps sanitation. I am not saying you should never learn about water chemistry but that's not your #1 priority. Probably not even top 5 at the moment.

Start with good healthy yeast. Use liquid if you can. Use a starter. Good sanitation and temperature control which you already have. Some patience. Read some literature and keep educating yourself.

+1

Here is a thread with the two leading homebrewtalk water science contributors commenting on the impact of water chemistry on attenuation. One says sure it does, a little. The other says nope.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=493150

I suspect temperature control issues compounded by changing seasons. You didn't have these issues with extract brewing but have with all grain. US-05 is a great yeast that responds really well to active temperature control. I like it pitched at about 70, held at 68 for first week of fermentation and raised 1 degree per day to about 71 as krausen starts to drop.

 

[Floydmeister]

I brought a sample of the beer to my local club meeting the other day. Pretty much everyone that tried it said it was Phenol. Nobody really seemed to have a reason for why it happens though. The general response was that something during fermentation caused the problem. Most didn't think that 1.013 was a very good enough attenuation for US-05 with this recipe. One guy told me to pitch two packs of US-05.

I gave Bru'n Water a shot and decided to brew a saison yesterday on a whim. I used all 100% RO water and added 1 tsp Gypsum, 1/2 tsp Calcium Chloride, and 1/2 tsp Espom Salt. With about 10mL of phosphoric acid hit my intended pH. I'll probably keep this up for the next few beers to eliminate any possibility of water being an issue. I pitched 3 re-hydrated dry packs of danstar belle saison based on brewersfriend calculator for a 1.075 OG wort. I aerated by first straining into my bottling bucket and then letting the wort fall out of the spigot and splash around in the fermentation bucket. It's taking off like a rocket. The blowoff hose is shooting out bubbles like its a machine gun.

I am going to try an ~1.050 ESB this wekeend with Wyeast 1968. I got a starter 2L starter going on Monday (no stir plate yet, just shaking) and put it in the fridge this morning. I plan to decant it off and feed the yeast another 2L of wort. I should have hopefully ruled out unhealthy yeast by pitching at least what the calculators say.

 

[TheHopfather]

Just read through all of these, you mentioned you use tap water, do you treat it for chlorine? Seems like chlorophenol might be your issue to me, its the only thing that really stands out in your process.

 

[Floydmeister]

Just read through all of these, you mentioned you use tap water, do you treat it for chlorine? Seems like chlorophenol might be your issue to me, its the only thing that really stands out in your process.

That's something I've been really wondering about too. It's summer now and they really up the chlorine levels because it gets hot and the bacteria thrive in the heat. I now have a charcoal filter and used it on a slow flow rate for my dunkelweizen and used all RO for the saison. Both are still fermenting so I'll have to report back but the taste sample in my dunkelweizen is so far promising.

 

[Floydmeister]

UPDATE:

Just an update. I switched to RO water and started using PET carboys. All of my beers so far with RO & PET carboys have turned out great and there is no more phenol off flavor.

However... Some of my beers in my HDPE buckets have developed phenols. In fact, I had a quad :'( develop this flavor after 2 weeks in the bottle. I didn't detect it at bottling. This leads me to believe that there is some kind of infection; maybe brettanomyces? I went ahead and got a new syphon and bottling bucket since I did not detect any problem until after bottling. Hopefully things clear up but from now on I'm going to start turning my buckets into grain storage containers and stick to PET carboys as they're A LOT easier to clean and sanitize.

 

[kh54s10]

UPDATE:

I'm going to start turning my buckets into grain storage containers and stick to PET carboys as they're A LOT easier to clean and sanitize.

At last... Someone who agrees with me that PET fermenters are easier to clean than even buckets. I rinse them out, soak with Oxyclean, drain and rinse, add a washcloth and a little water, swirl and rinse well. Except for filling with water and Oxyclean the rest takes at most 10 minutes.

Reaching to the bottom of a bucket and wiping all surfaces is more of a pain to me...

 

[Floydmeister]

At last... Someone who agrees with me that PET fermenters are easier to clean than even buckets. I rinse them out, soak with Oxyclean, drain and rinse, add a washcloth and a little water, swirl and rinse well. Except for filling with water and Oxyclean the rest takes at most 10 minutes.

Reaching to the bottom of a bucket and wiping all surfaces is more of a pain to me...

And when it comes time to sanitize for brew day just put a little bit in there and shake it around occasionally so it covers everything.

 

[kh54s10]

And when it comes time to sanitize for brew day just put a little bit in there and shake it around occasionally so it covers everything.

Try that with wet hands and a glass carboy.... Do you need a ride to the ER???

 

[djlang]

I agree with 55x11 - first do the basics right (or rather perfectly) then get into chemistry.