All Grain & Extract brewers competing against each other?

[signpost]

You could give 100 brewers the exact same kit, with instructions to brew it according to the recipe TO THE LETTER, and you would end up with some very different beers.

Are you saying homebrewers can't follow directions?

 

[evrose]

Are you saying homebrewers can't follow directions?

Depends on how much they are drinking while they are brewing. Hence the variability of the output.

 

[Qhrumphf]

Plus wind, kettle design, boil strength, fermenter design, freshness of ingredients, variance in crop year, stability and control of fermentation temps, viability and vitality of yeast, pitching rate, chill rate, and so on and so forth.

Hell even on the same gear it could vary from place to place.

Certain stuff is under the brewers control. Some isn't. And some of that stuff isn't in kit instructions. Some of this stuff people don't pay attention to. And the differences from stuff that isn't under the brewers control may be subtle, but noticeable side by side. Or may be noticeable without tasting side by side.

 

[jperry]

I would be bummed, if I spent 5+ hours on an all-grain batch, and somebody beat me with an extract batch that only took about 2 hours. Personally, I'd feel somewhat cheated, and disheartened. I didn't take the easy way out, why should you? Same if you made wine from grapes, and somebody entered a concentrate wine that beat yours. Or, somebody using a store bought crust, in a "homemade" pie contest. That's my 2 cents.

 

[reverendj1]

Disclaimer, I'm an AG brewer. I've only done a couple extract when I was starting out. I've also only entered one competition.

After seeing some people's setups on here with regards to automation, etc. I don't think that AG necessarily means harder.

I would be bummed, if I had spent 5+ hours on an all-grain batch, and somebody beat me with an extract batch that only took about 2 hours. Personally, I'd feel cheated, and disheartened. I didn't take the easy way out, why should you? Same if you made wine from grapes, and somebody entered a concentrate wine that beat yours. Or, somebody using a store bought crust, in a "homemade" pie contest. That's my 2 cents.

Why would you feel cheated? Because you put more work/heart into something than someone else did, but they still did it better than you? You had access to those same ingredients and chose not to use them. If you are a natural genius should you get lower grades in school than people who have to study their asses off to get a B? Should sports games be won/loss based on determination and feelings instead of score?

As others have said, competitions are based on final product. The majority of the focus is on adherence to style. Quite the opposite of celebrating creativity. Yes, I know you can stretch the styles, etc. There are also different competitions where they are more Iron Chef-like where you all have to brew a certain style, or use a certain ingredient. Hell Bell's has a competition where they give you 5 gallons of wort, and everyone does whatever the hell they want with it for the competition.

 

[NewJersey]

at what temp do extract makers mash?
does it differ from brand to brand?
that is something that is missing from extract brewing in my book.

 

[m_stodd]

It seems like everyone's getting caught up on flavor and general beer quality, when that had nothing to do with OP's first post.

That aside, OP raises a fair question of how much of the work the brewer must do. If I brew an extract batch, much of the brewing process is done outside my home brewery at a commercial facility somewhere. Sure I mixed the ingredients together pitched yeast, and bottled, but there's a lot of work that I had a professional do.

The one competition that I've done so far has been the Midwinter Homebrew Competition, and their rules are as follows:

All entries must be handcrafted products, containing ingredients available to the general public, and made using private equipment by hobbyist brewers (i.e., no use of commercial facilities or Brew on Premises operations, supplies, etc.).

There is some interpretation here.
* I have no idea what 'handcrafted' means
* Is 'general public' different from some other kind of 'public'?
* Does 'containing ingredients' mean 'consisting of 100% ingredients...'

The beers I entered were PMs, and killed (mid/low 40s). One of them was a best-of-show contender. I'm sure nobody cares that I used extract, even though it could be argued that ingredient was made at a commercial facility.

Bells and Lakefront brewery sometimes offers their wort to the general public. If I used that, would that be breaking the rules? What if I used yeast from bottles of commercial beer? I believe that everyone should compete against everyone, but OP raises an interesting point. Without more specific rules on ingredients, there could be some interpretation

 

[stpug]

If we can't separate them then I say we give em handicaps:
AG = 2 point handicap
PM = 1 point handicap
Extract = no hadicap

Male = 1 point handicap (because we invariably f*** something up at some point)
Female = -1 point handicap (because they don't)

Seriously!!

Your thoughts? Discuss.

 

[Jzaiger]

Good beer is good beer, no matter the method.

Hallelujah!

 

[cryhav0c]

Exceptional points have been made all around and this is an attempt to assist in organizing them.

This outline is information gleaned from this discussion sofar and should not be considered complete. Please adjust as necessary to enhance the discussion.

---------------------------
What are the primary issues regarding this topic?
1. Preparation:
Can the results be reproduced utilizing extract?

Can the results be reproduced utilizing PM?

2. Recipes:

What defines a recipe for EB?

What defines a recipe for AG?

What defines a recipe for BIAB?

What defines a recipe for PM?

3. How should a fair competition be defined with regards to _______?

4. The individual contests definition of "Handcrafted"

5, Should extract be viewed as handcrafted even though it is prepared within a commercial facility?

6. Individual thoughts upon fairness of various individual types of brewers competing against themselves.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

What this discussion is not:

A discussion of end product quality and/or flavor.

A discussion of if method of prep can be discovered via mere sampling of end product.

How this may affect a giraffe mating anywhere other than in the wild.

BTW...The handicap post had me LMAO. Great!

 

[jperry]

Why would you feel cheated? Because you put more work/heart into something than someone else did, but they still did it better than you? You had access to those same ingredients and chose not to use them. If you are a natural genius should you get lower grades in school than people who have to study their asses off to get a B? Should sports games be won/loss based on determination and feelings instead of score?

I'm just saying to keep the natural geniuses, with other natural geniuses. So that the playing field is level.

 

[kaconga]

What this discussion is not:

A discussion of end product quality and/or flavor.

A discussion of if method of prep can be discovered via mere sampling of end product.

What is the point of a competition if not to determine the best quality product and flavor? If there can be no discernable difference between the two methods by trained judges then what is the purpose of segregating? I feel these two topics are very relevant to the overall issue.

 

[beernutz]

If we can't separate them then I say we give em handicaps:
AG = 2 point handicap
PM = 1 point handicap
Extract = no hadicap

Male = 1 point handicap (because we invariably f*** something up at some point)
Female = -1 point handicap (because they don't)

Seriously!!

Your thoughts? Discuss.

So if I toss a teaspoon of DME in my boil kettle I immediately get a 1 point bonus? Sweet!

I will not however be making any other changes, temporary or otherwise, to get that 2 point gender handicap back.

 

[Braufessor]

Exceptional points have been made all around and this is an attempt to assist in organizing them.

This outline is information gleaned from this discussion sofar and should not be considered complete. Please adjust as necessary to enhance the discussion.

---------------------------
What are the primary issues regarding this topic?
1. Preparation:
Can the results be reproduced utilizing extract?

Can the results be reproduced utilizing PM?

2. Recipes:

What defines a recipe for EB?

What defines a recipe for AG?

What defines a recipe for BIAB?

What defines a recipe for PM?

3. How should a fair competition be defined with regards to _______?

4. The individual contests definition of "Handcrafted"

5, Should extract be viewed as handcrafted even though it is prepared within a commercial facility?

6. Individual thoughts upon fairness of various individual types of brewers competing against themselves.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

What this discussion is not:

A discussion of end product quality and/or flavor.

A discussion of if method of prep can be discovered via mere sampling of end product.

How this may affect a giraffe mating anywhere other than in the wild.

BTW...The handicap post had me LMAO. Great!

You (and others) keep saying this is not a discussion about end product quality/flavor........ but that is what is being JUDGED! How can it not be relevant. That is what a beer competition is all about - how the beer tastes, and how few flaws there are - while adhering to narrow style guidelines.

Plus, your above list/questions highlight how futile it would be to even attempt any of your suggestions. I have not organized or worked a competition, but after entering 40 or so, I am going to go out on a limb here and say they must be A LOT OF WORK. All of these suggestions make a competition unbearably cumbersome and would require additional workers (that are generally not available). What is more - it is all done in the name of singling out an infinite number of variables that are really not at the heart of what the competition is judging (the best tasting beer that was made at home).

Yes, Briess made the extract - but "technically" they also malted the Barley..... is it fair that a "professional" malted the barley, or pelletized the hops, or collected and cultured the yeast. Shouldn't you have to culture your own yeast and propagate it in your own lab for it to really "be yours." What you describe is essentially descending into an endless spiral of ridiculous details and technicalities....... all of which have no relation to the ultimate objective of the contest - can you go buy ingredients in a homebrew store, and make a beer in your house, that is better than someone else can make.

In addition - besides the problem of a thousand categories of what is, and is not, an "advantage" - it is all for something that would be impossible to recognize or enforce in the entries when it was all said and done anyway.

I think a more relevant option is what I have seen some competitions do - have some prizes for beginning brewers ..... brewing less than "X" years.

I think the main reason most people enter competitions is primarily to get unbiased feedback on their ability to brew certain beer styles, using the method and equipment they have chosen to use. I think the "winning" aspect of it is secondary to most. I like to do well in a competition- but I appreciate the feedback that has improved my ability to brew to style more than "winning."

 

[signpost]

Yes, Briess made the extract - but "technically" they also malted the Barley..... is it fair that a "professional" malted the barley, or pelletized the hops, or collected and cultured the yeast. Shouldn't you have to culture your own yeast and propagate it in your own lab for it to really "be yours." What you describe is essentially descending into an endless spiral of ridiculous details and technicalities....... all of which have no relation to the ultimate objective of the contest - can you go buy ingredients in a homebrew store, and make a beer in your house, that is better than someone else can make.

I was going to post something very similar to that, but you beat me to it and said it better than I probably was going to. But you forgot to include growing the barley in your list of things that are already done for us.

 

[Qhrumphf]

It seems like everyone's getting caught up on flavor and general beer quality, when that had nothing to do with OP's first post.

That aside, OP raises a fair question of how much of the work the brewer must do. If I brew an extract batch, much of the brewing process is done outside my home brewery at a commercial facility somewhere. Sure I mixed the ingredients together pitched yeast, and bottled, but there's a lot of work that I had a professional do.

The one competition that I've done so far has been the Midwinter Homebrew Competition, and their rules are as follows:

All entries must be handcrafted products, containing ingredients available to the general public, and made using private equipment by hobbyist brewers (i.e., no use of commercial facilities or Brew on Premises operations, supplies, etc.).

There is some interpretation here.
* I have no idea what 'handcrafted' means
* Is 'general public' different from some other kind of 'public'?
* Does 'containing ingredients' mean 'consisting of 100% ingredients...'

The beers I entered were PMs, and killed (mid/low 40s). One of them was a best-of-show contender. I'm sure nobody cares that I used extract, even though it could be argued that ingredient was made at a commercial facility.

Bells and Lakefront brewery sometimes offers their wort to the general public. If I used that, would that be breaking the rules? What if I used yeast from bottles of commercial beer? I believe that everyone should compete against everyone, but OP raises an interesting point. Without more specific rules on ingredients, there could be some interpretation

I was going to post something very similar to that, but you beat me to it and said it better than I probably was going to. But you forgot to include growing the barley in your list of things that are already done for us.

Along with water treatment, hop growing and processing, hop crossbreeding, malting, yeast culturing, sugar processing, equipment manufacturing, and so on and so forth. The only way to have a truly 100% homegrown beer is to go out into the wilderness, obtain wild barley and hops, malt the barley yourself, brew everything using wood you've cut down yourself with an ax you made yourself or rock you quarried yourself or whatever you can muster, ferment in the same with wild yeast floating around. No chemical cleaners. No sanitizers. Making some truly archaic beer. Which might be fun, but I don't think you'll be winning any competitions with it. Otherwise you're using someone else's professional work.

You get the point. Don't read between lines that aren't there.

 

[stpug]

Along with water treatment, hop growing and processing, hop crossbreeding, malting, yeast culturing, sugar processing, equipment manufacturing, and so on and so forth. The only way to have a truly 100% homegrown beer is to go out into the wilderness, obtain wild barley and hops, malt the barley yourself, brew everything using wood you've cut down yourself with an ax you made yourself or rock you quarried yourself or whatever you can muster, ferment in the same with wild yeast floating around. No chemical cleaners. No sanitizers. Making some truly archaic beer. Which might be fun, but I don't think you'll be winning any competitions with it. Otherwise you're using someone else's professional work.

You get the point. Don't read between lines that aren't there.

What I hear you saying is that I'm not a brewer unless I do those things and I simply don't agree with that!!!

Who has time to make their own wooden pot? I mean, come on, really!!

And, "no sanitizers"??? Seriously???

.....(you mean THOSE lines )......

 

[Qhrumphf]

What I hear you saying is that I'm not a brewer unless I do those things and I simply don't agree with that!!!

Who has time to make their own wooden pot? I mean, come on, really!!

And, "no sanitizers"??? Seriously???

.....(you mean THOSE lines )......

Yep. If you're not brewing in a homemade kettle with wood fire and sanitizing with anything other than boiling water you're a poser.

That's why us real brewers get a 50 point handicap.

 

[stpug]

Then call me....

Poser Pug

 

[Piratwolf]

What is the point of a competition if not to determine the best quality product and flavor? If there can be no discernable difference between the two methods by trained judges then what is the purpose of segregating? I feel these two topics are very relevant to the overall issue.

This.

 

[apeltes]

Good thread. It's all about where you lie on a spectrum.

--At one end: purchase an awesome beer and enter it into a competition.

--At the other end: grow and malt your own barley, collect and propagate your own yeast, etc.

Both ends are silly, but do extract and AG brewing lie at the same point?

 

[IL1kebeer]

Fermentation plays a way bigger role on a beer than all grain or extract. You can get Mr. Beer kits (or similar) to come out good if they are fresh and if you know how to ferment correctly.

 

[AnOldUR]

Good thread. It's all about where you lie on a spectrum.

--At one end: purchase an awesome beer and enter it into a competition.

--At the other end: grow and malt your own barley, collect and propagate your own yeast, etc.

Both ends are silly, but do extract and AG brewing lie at the same point?

Agree with you about the two extremes. On one end you have cheating. On the other, just silliness. We're homebrewing. In other words, we're trying to do what professional brewers do, only doing it at home. They do exist, but very few craft breweries grow and malt there own grain. Bringing those types of arguments to the debate is pointless. The other extreme is where the questions come up. How many of the processes that professional brewers actually do can you skip before it's cheating? According to the BJCP anything up to relabeling commercial beer is allowed. The beer just has to be good!

So, the real question is, what are you comfortable with? If you feel using extract is cheating, don't do it. But don't try to impose your personal values on someone else.

 

[Qhrumphf]

Agree with you about the two extremes. On one end you have cheating. On the other, just silliness. We're homebrewing. In other words, we're trying to do what professional brewers do, only doing it at home. They do exist, but very few craft breweries grow and malt there own grain. Bringing those types of arguments to the debate is pointless. The other extreme is where the questions come up. How many of the processes that professional brewers actually do can you skip before it's cheating? According to the BJCP anything up to relabeling commercial beer is allowed. The beer just has to be good!

So, the real question is, what are you comfortable with? If you feel using extract is cheating, don't do it. But don't try to impose your personal values on someone else.

+5000

As long as you're actually brewing the beer yourself, however you get to the end result is irrelevant.

If someone enters a Mr. Beer kit brew into a competition and beats my all grain brew, I'll tip my hat to them as a brewer, not get pissed cause they took the easy way.

Besides, while I certainly enjoy winning medals, the biggest reason I enter comps is to get better as a brewer. While half the feedback I get may be self-contradicting garbage, I'll usually get at least SOME decent (and objective) suggestions for how to make a subpar beer a good one, or how to make a good one an excellent one.

I've had beers get praised highly, score highly, and not medal. I've also had beers with some rightful comments on flaws, and a fairly low score, but still medal. I was happier with the higher non-medal than the medal.

And with that in mind, the beer someone else brews, or how they brew it, is irrelevant to me.