All Grain & Extract brewers competing against each other?

[evrose]

Let me pose this overly simplistic query. Supposing there is no difference in the finished product, why do we even bother with the more complicated method to arrive at the same end? Seems to me that pretty much sums it up.

Control and cost.

 

[watersr]

If you give an artist a palatte of 4 colors he could still paint a masterpiece. All grain is like having a broader palette. There are some styles that are hard to brew in extract due to the need for a mash to convert some grains that steeping wont convert. All grain allows for more diverse but not necessarily bettet beer. And its fun.

 

[smccarter]

I guess I can understand how you can come to that conclusion. But I"m a certified BJCP judge. I've had wonderful extract beers win/place in competition- and of course we didn't know they were extract beers as the judges have no way of knowing that. I've had some really awful AG beers.

It's not like an extract batch (or partial mash) is a can of spaghettio's entered in an Italian recipe contest. There is much more to it than that!

Think of it this way- the only thing an extract brewer is doing is using the extract instead of two-row. That's it. Sure, he/she skips the mashing process, but temperature control, fresh ingredients, yeast pitching rate, water quality, etc are the most important part anyway.

I sort of think of extract brewing (assuming some specialty grains) as making spaghetti sauce out of canned tomatoes and sauce, but adding spices and other ingredients to make the sauce. I've had some of the best spaghetti sauces made this way.

For AG, the process would be the same, except a guy starts with a bushel of tomatoes. I"ve done this, by the way! It could be much better, but much more could go wrong and it could be worse. I've made great sauce this way, but it takes more equipment (to peel the tomatoes and things) and more time.

The real contest, then, is the flavor. I mean, when I go to a restaurant I don't really care if the spaghetti sauce was made the old fashioned (canned) way if you're my grandma, or from a bushel of tomatoes. I care about the taste.

The same is true of brewing. I"ve had bad beers of all sorts over the years- even in commercial brewpubs. I'd rather have a great beer, no matter how the brewer got there, than all of those bad ones.

It really takes great skill to make a kick-ass extract brew, so I'd give kudos to that brewer.

The first HBT competition we had, a partial mash beer won the BOS (or was it the second BOS?). Anyway, he won kegging gear, beating out over 300 other entries. I'd say the pool of beers we submitted (me included) were pretty darn good, so if he beat my AG beer, then that's awesome.

Well said

 

[Clonefan94]

Personally i wouldnt think any judge could differentiate between methods by merely tasting. That would be difficult indeed.

Zamial, let me repose the question. Why are the extract brewers & their supporters so 'loud' on this topic & the AG people so quite. It's nothing personal, just an observation.

This thread was started to explore thoughts on brewing methods being lumped together for judging. As indicated by the contributing judges, the recipe isn't examined as part of the judging process. That is interesting. The judges are only interested in final product & its conformity to style guidelines & not method of arrival at that point.

Very interesting.

My take on this, as an all-grain brewer. It's not that there is this defined camp of all-grain brewers and extract brewers and that we are all out to prove the other method is inferior. It seems that in this discussion, you are the only one who is really focusing on that mentality.

I don't think there is this vocal majority standing up and defending extract and no one is coming to the aid of all-grain, as much as most of us look at brewing beer as brewing beer. We are brewers first.

I think everyone is coming, loudly, to the defense of extract brewers, because they are brewers. It doesn't matter to us as much how you brew, only that you do brew. I don't think there is this great dividing line, amongst two camps that you perceive.

 

[jonmohno]

Homebrewing is now officially a sport?

 

[kaconga]

It would seem to me that the only advantage to segregate the process would be in favor of all grain brewers. They have an inherently harder beer to make because of the added variables. There are fewer all grain brewers and so fewer competitors in that category. Honestly I would feel sort of sad for the all grain brewers if we needed to be judged in a different group than PM or extract brewers. In a competition I want to make the BEST beer for that style, regardless of how anyone else makes their beer.

 

[stu4stew]

Now that's a good point. Should we differentiate then. Should "brew kits" entries be prohibited?

Should all grain recipes u find online be prohibited?

 

[ong]

Let me pose this overly simplistic query. Supposing there is no difference in the finished product, why do we even bother with the more complicated method to arrive at the same end? Seems to me that pretty much sums it up.

There are plenty of things you just can't do with extract. You can't remove the carapils from it. You can't mash at 158 to get more body and unfermentable sugars. You can't do a decoction mash. Just because you can make great beer with either process doesn't mean there's no reasons to brew all-grain.

 

[Qhrumphf]

It seems to me that many of the folks posting on here who are sticking up for extract are all-grain brewers. That should be enough "sticking up for all-grain" for you. We'll all readily admit that AG is not superior to extract. They're both processes that can be good or bad depending on the skill of the brewer.

Competitions are for judging the beer, not the recipe. I'd venture to say that if you're entering something even remotely resembling whatever BJCP style you're entering under, it's close enough to a 100% guarantee that someone else has already entered a competition with your exact recipe, kit or not, extract or all-grain.

As for why I stick to all-grain: I like brew day. It's relaxing. I like geeking out, and AG allows much more geek-out room. And there's so much more control with AG (mash temp, base malt selection, step mashes, adjunct grains, etc) that you don't get with extract.

 

[Piratwolf]

I'll add my take in pretty much total disagreement with the OP.

I don't have the amount of judging experience that Yooper and (I assume) Zamial have, but I am a BJCP judge and agree that there's no way to taste a difference b/n AG and extract beer per se. If three judges' opinions aren't enough, let me add this: Jamil Zainashef, who is Nationally ranked and judges at GABF as well as NHC, AND a pro brewer as well as being close with Gordon Strong and Matt Brynildson, has done an experiment with this. He has brewed several extract beers and served them to his crowd (see above) side-by-side with AG beers... AND NOT ONE PERSON NOTICED. Apparently, many of them didn't believe him when he told them.

My reasons for choosing AG are those already mentioned: cost, control, and enjoyment. I've actually wanted to do some extract beers lately due to time constraints, but can't bring myself to pay that much. Moreover, I realized when I heard about the new push-button Homebrew system (can't recall the name & wouldn't promote it anyway) that does all the brewing work for you, that a huge part of why I brew is the love of the process.

 

[signpost]

You could give 100 brewers the exact same kit, with instructions to brew it according to the recipe TO THE LETTER, and you would end up with some very different beers.

Are you saying homebrewers can't follow directions?

 

[evrose]

Are you saying homebrewers can't follow directions?

Depends on how much they are drinking while they are brewing. Hence the variability of the output.

 

[Qhrumphf]

Plus wind, kettle design, boil strength, fermenter design, freshness of ingredients, variance in crop year, stability and control of fermentation temps, viability and vitality of yeast, pitching rate, chill rate, and so on and so forth.

Hell even on the same gear it could vary from place to place.

Certain stuff is under the brewers control. Some isn't. And some of that stuff isn't in kit instructions. Some of this stuff people don't pay attention to. And the differences from stuff that isn't under the brewers control may be subtle, but noticeable side by side. Or may be noticeable without tasting side by side.

 

[jperry]

I would be bummed, if I spent 5+ hours on an all-grain batch, and somebody beat me with an extract batch that only took about 2 hours. Personally, I'd feel somewhat cheated, and disheartened. I didn't take the easy way out, why should you? Same if you made wine from grapes, and somebody entered a concentrate wine that beat yours. Or, somebody using a store bought crust, in a "homemade" pie contest. That's my 2 cents.

 

[reverendj1]

Disclaimer, I'm an AG brewer. I've only done a couple extract when I was starting out. I've also only entered one competition.

After seeing some people's setups on here with regards to automation, etc. I don't think that AG necessarily means harder.

I would be bummed, if I had spent 5+ hours on an all-grain batch, and somebody beat me with an extract batch that only took about 2 hours. Personally, I'd feel cheated, and disheartened. I didn't take the easy way out, why should you? Same if you made wine from grapes, and somebody entered a concentrate wine that beat yours. Or, somebody using a store bought crust, in a "homemade" pie contest. That's my 2 cents.

Why would you feel cheated? Because you put more work/heart into something than someone else did, but they still did it better than you? You had access to those same ingredients and chose not to use them. If you are a natural genius should you get lower grades in school than people who have to study their asses off to get a B? Should sports games be won/loss based on determination and feelings instead of score?

As others have said, competitions are based on final product. The majority of the focus is on adherence to style. Quite the opposite of celebrating creativity. Yes, I know you can stretch the styles, etc. There are also different competitions where they are more Iron Chef-like where you all have to brew a certain style, or use a certain ingredient. Hell Bell's has a competition where they give you 5 gallons of wort, and everyone does whatever the hell they want with it for the competition.

 

[NewJersey]

at what temp do extract makers mash?
does it differ from brand to brand?
that is something that is missing from extract brewing in my book.

 

[m_stodd]

It seems like everyone's getting caught up on flavor and general beer quality, when that had nothing to do with OP's first post.

That aside, OP raises a fair question of how much of the work the brewer must do. If I brew an extract batch, much of the brewing process is done outside my home brewery at a commercial facility somewhere. Sure I mixed the ingredients together pitched yeast, and bottled, but there's a lot of work that I had a professional do.

The one competition that I've done so far has been the Midwinter Homebrew Competition, and their rules are as follows:

All entries must be handcrafted products, containing ingredients available to the general public, and made using private equipment by hobbyist brewers (i.e., no use of commercial facilities or Brew on Premises operations, supplies, etc.).

There is some interpretation here.
* I have no idea what 'handcrafted' means
* Is 'general public' different from some other kind of 'public'?
* Does 'containing ingredients' mean 'consisting of 100% ingredients...'

The beers I entered were PMs, and killed (mid/low 40s). One of them was a best-of-show contender. I'm sure nobody cares that I used extract, even though it could be argued that ingredient was made at a commercial facility.

Bells and Lakefront brewery sometimes offers their wort to the general public. If I used that, would that be breaking the rules? What if I used yeast from bottles of commercial beer? I believe that everyone should compete against everyone, but OP raises an interesting point. Without more specific rules on ingredients, there could be some interpretation

 

[stpug]

If we can't separate them then I say we give em handicaps:
AG = 2 point handicap
PM = 1 point handicap
Extract = no hadicap

Male = 1 point handicap (because we invariably f*** something up at some point)
Female = -1 point handicap (because they don't)

Seriously!!

Your thoughts? Discuss.

 

[Jzaiger]

Good beer is good beer, no matter the method.

Hallelujah!

 

[cryhav0c]

Exceptional points have been made all around and this is an attempt to assist in organizing them.

This outline is information gleaned from this discussion sofar and should not be considered complete. Please adjust as necessary to enhance the discussion.

---------------------------
What are the primary issues regarding this topic?
1. Preparation:
Can the results be reproduced utilizing extract?

Can the results be reproduced utilizing PM?

2. Recipes:

What defines a recipe for EB?

What defines a recipe for AG?

What defines a recipe for BIAB?

What defines a recipe for PM?

3. How should a fair competition be defined with regards to _______?

4. The individual contests definition of "Handcrafted"

5, Should extract be viewed as handcrafted even though it is prepared within a commercial facility?

6. Individual thoughts upon fairness of various individual types of brewers competing against themselves.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

What this discussion is not:

A discussion of end product quality and/or flavor.

A discussion of if method of prep can be discovered via mere sampling of end product.

How this may affect a giraffe mating anywhere other than in the wild.

BTW...The handicap post had me LMAO. Great!

 

[jperry]

Why would you feel cheated? Because you put more work/heart into something than someone else did, but they still did it better than you? You had access to those same ingredients and chose not to use them. If you are a natural genius should you get lower grades in school than people who have to study their asses off to get a B? Should sports games be won/loss based on determination and feelings instead of score?

I'm just saying to keep the natural geniuses, with other natural geniuses. So that the playing field is level.

 

[kaconga]

What this discussion is not:

A discussion of end product quality and/or flavor.

A discussion of if method of prep can be discovered via mere sampling of end product.

What is the point of a competition if not to determine the best quality product and flavor? If there can be no discernable difference between the two methods by trained judges then what is the purpose of segregating? I feel these two topics are very relevant to the overall issue.

 

[beernutz]

If we can't separate them then I say we give em handicaps:
AG = 2 point handicap
PM = 1 point handicap
Extract = no hadicap

Male = 1 point handicap (because we invariably f*** something up at some point)
Female = -1 point handicap (because they don't)

Seriously!!

Your thoughts? Discuss.

So if I toss a teaspoon of DME in my boil kettle I immediately get a 1 point bonus? Sweet!

I will not however be making any other changes, temporary or otherwise, to get that 2 point gender handicap back.

 

[Braufessor]

Exceptional points have been made all around and this is an attempt to assist in organizing them.

This outline is information gleaned from this discussion sofar and should not be considered complete. Please adjust as necessary to enhance the discussion.

---------------------------
What are the primary issues regarding this topic?
1. Preparation:
Can the results be reproduced utilizing extract?

Can the results be reproduced utilizing PM?

2. Recipes:

What defines a recipe for EB?

What defines a recipe for AG?

What defines a recipe for BIAB?

What defines a recipe for PM?

3. How should a fair competition be defined with regards to _______?

4. The individual contests definition of "Handcrafted"

5, Should extract be viewed as handcrafted even though it is prepared within a commercial facility?

6. Individual thoughts upon fairness of various individual types of brewers competing against themselves.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

What this discussion is not:

A discussion of end product quality and/or flavor.

A discussion of if method of prep can be discovered via mere sampling of end product.

How this may affect a giraffe mating anywhere other than in the wild.

BTW...The handicap post had me LMAO. Great!

You (and others) keep saying this is not a discussion about end product quality/flavor........ but that is what is being JUDGED! How can it not be relevant. That is what a beer competition is all about - how the beer tastes, and how few flaws there are - while adhering to narrow style guidelines.

Plus, your above list/questions highlight how futile it would be to even attempt any of your suggestions. I have not organized or worked a competition, but after entering 40 or so, I am going to go out on a limb here and say they must be A LOT OF WORK. All of these suggestions make a competition unbearably cumbersome and would require additional workers (that are generally not available). What is more - it is all done in the name of singling out an infinite number of variables that are really not at the heart of what the competition is judging (the best tasting beer that was made at home).

Yes, Briess made the extract - but "technically" they also malted the Barley..... is it fair that a "professional" malted the barley, or pelletized the hops, or collected and cultured the yeast. Shouldn't you have to culture your own yeast and propagate it in your own lab for it to really "be yours." What you describe is essentially descending into an endless spiral of ridiculous details and technicalities....... all of which have no relation to the ultimate objective of the contest - can you go buy ingredients in a homebrew store, and make a beer in your house, that is better than someone else can make.

In addition - besides the problem of a thousand categories of what is, and is not, an "advantage" - it is all for something that would be impossible to recognize or enforce in the entries when it was all said and done anyway.

I think a more relevant option is what I have seen some competitions do - have some prizes for beginning brewers ..... brewing less than "X" years.

I think the main reason most people enter competitions is primarily to get unbiased feedback on their ability to brew certain beer styles, using the method and equipment they have chosen to use. I think the "winning" aspect of it is secondary to most. I like to do well in a competition- but I appreciate the feedback that has improved my ability to brew to style more than "winning."

 

[signpost]

Yes, Briess made the extract - but "technically" they also malted the Barley..... is it fair that a "professional" malted the barley, or pelletized the hops, or collected and cultured the yeast. Shouldn't you have to culture your own yeast and propagate it in your own lab for it to really "be yours." What you describe is essentially descending into an endless spiral of ridiculous details and technicalities....... all of which have no relation to the ultimate objective of the contest - can you go buy ingredients in a homebrew store, and make a beer in your house, that is better than someone else can make.

I was going to post something very similar to that, but you beat me to it and said it better than I probably was going to. But you forgot to include growing the barley in your list of things that are already done for us.

 

[Qhrumphf]

It seems like everyone's getting caught up on flavor and general beer quality, when that had nothing to do with OP's first post.

That aside, OP raises a fair question of how much of the work the brewer must do. If I brew an extract batch, much of the brewing process is done outside my home brewery at a commercial facility somewhere. Sure I mixed the ingredients together pitched yeast, and bottled, but there's a lot of work that I had a professional do.

The one competition that I've done so far has been the Midwinter Homebrew Competition, and their rules are as follows:

All entries must be handcrafted products, containing ingredients available to the general public, and made using private equipment by hobbyist brewers (i.e., no use of commercial facilities or Brew on Premises operations, supplies, etc.).

There is some interpretation here.
* I have no idea what 'handcrafted' means
* Is 'general public' different from some other kind of 'public'?
* Does 'containing ingredients' mean 'consisting of 100% ingredients...'

The beers I entered were PMs, and killed (mid/low 40s). One of them was a best-of-show contender. I'm sure nobody cares that I used extract, even though it could be argued that ingredient was made at a commercial facility.

Bells and Lakefront brewery sometimes offers their wort to the general public. If I used that, would that be breaking the rules? What if I used yeast from bottles of commercial beer? I believe that everyone should compete against everyone, but OP raises an interesting point. Without more specific rules on ingredients, there could be some interpretation

I was going to post something very similar to that, but you beat me to it and said it better than I probably was going to. But you forgot to include growing the barley in your list of things that are already done for us.

Along with water treatment, hop growing and processing, hop crossbreeding, malting, yeast culturing, sugar processing, equipment manufacturing, and so on and so forth. The only way to have a truly 100% homegrown beer is to go out into the wilderness, obtain wild barley and hops, malt the barley yourself, brew everything using wood you've cut down yourself with an ax you made yourself or rock you quarried yourself or whatever you can muster, ferment in the same with wild yeast floating around. No chemical cleaners. No sanitizers. Making some truly archaic beer. Which might be fun, but I don't think you'll be winning any competitions with it. Otherwise you're using someone else's professional work.

You get the point. Don't read between lines that aren't there.

 

[stpug]

Along with water treatment, hop growing and processing, hop crossbreeding, malting, yeast culturing, sugar processing, equipment manufacturing, and so on and so forth. The only way to have a truly 100% homegrown beer is to go out into the wilderness, obtain wild barley and hops, malt the barley yourself, brew everything using wood you've cut down yourself with an ax you made yourself or rock you quarried yourself or whatever you can muster, ferment in the same with wild yeast floating around. No chemical cleaners. No sanitizers. Making some truly archaic beer. Which might be fun, but I don't think you'll be winning any competitions with it. Otherwise you're using someone else's professional work.

You get the point. Don't read between lines that aren't there.

What I hear you saying is that I'm not a brewer unless I do those things and I simply don't agree with that!!!

Who has time to make their own wooden pot? I mean, come on, really!!

And, "no sanitizers"??? Seriously???

.....(you mean THOSE lines )......

 

[Qhrumphf]

What I hear you saying is that I'm not a brewer unless I do those things and I simply don't agree with that!!!

Who has time to make their own wooden pot? I mean, come on, really!!

And, "no sanitizers"??? Seriously???

.....(you mean THOSE lines )......

Yep. If you're not brewing in a homemade kettle with wood fire and sanitizing with anything other than boiling water you're a poser.

That's why us real brewers get a 50 point handicap.

 

[stpug]

Then call me....

Poser Pug

 

[Piratwolf]

What is the point of a competition if not to determine the best quality product and flavor? If there can be no discernable difference between the two methods by trained judges then what is the purpose of segregating? I feel these two topics are very relevant to the overall issue.

This.