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All grain brewing cheaper than extract

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11 Gallons of my Cream Ale will cost me about $14.00.

That's about 13 cents a bottle.

As for my time?
  • It's 68 degrees in my brewshop.
  • The SWMBO leaves me alone down there.
  • 25" TV with cable.
  • Comfortable reclining office chair.
  • 5 taps within arms reach.
  • Always lots of miscellaneous beer chores that I enjoy.

And…

  • With all grain you get to play with cool sh!t like a barley crusher:

Crusher_2.jpg

Oh...and yes...your beer will be better.
ClearBeer.jpg
 
Ingredients for my HCL partial mash I have on deck, cost $10 less than if I was to do a all extract recipe. If I keep saving these $10 I'll buy a turkey fryer and go to all grain!
 
Another thing to factor in is the cost of propane. I agree, save money on ingredients, but spend more on equipment and definitely more time. It's more rewarding to me to brew all grain, have my second AG batch in the fermenter now - it's pretty fun brewing in the garage with a buddy or two drinking for 4-6 hours and ending up with some good beer several weeks later.
 
Because hops and yeast are the same whether you are doing all-grain or extract.

True. However, the budget-conscious brewer can save 50% or more on hops by buying in bulk. The $40 I spent on hops from freshops last fall will keep me brewing throughout the year with my favorite hops varieties. The same amount of hops would have run me around $120 from the LHBS.
 
True. However, the budget-conscious brewer can save 50% or more on hops by buying in bulk. The $40 I spent on hops from freshops last fall will keep me brewing throughout the year with my favorite hops varieties. The same amount of hops would have run me around $120 from the LHBS.

Yes, but like I said, that is true of extract or All-grain brewers. Therefore, yeast and hops are a moot point in the discussion.
 
As for my time?
  • It's 68 degrees in my brewshop.
  • The SWMBO leaves me alone down there.
  • 25" TV with cable.
  • Comfortable reclining office chair.
  • 5 taps within arms reach.
  • Always lots of miscellaneous beer chores that I enjoy.

WHAT ARE YOU DOING IN MY BASEMENT!?!?!?

Seriously. :mug:
 
once you get your system down, the time isn't really that different.

i can brew an extract batch in about 3 hours, a PM batch in about 3.5 hours, and an all-grain in about 4 hours, as long as i'm not being lazy. not a huge difference.

I don't necessarily agree with this. Between cleaning and Mash/sparge times (which is 2 hrs by itself), AG batches are easily 2 hours longer than Extract batches. Boil and chill times are the same, but nearly everything else is additive.
 
Yes ingredients in an all grain batch can be cheaper. Yes the time it takes to brew an all grain batch is longer than an extract batch. Yes many of us have purchased additional equipment to brew all grain beer. However, the real reason many of us have made the transition from extract to all grain is not the cost, nor is it for an improved taste, it is because of the process. The lower cost of the raw materials for all grain is often offset by the cost of a new larger kettle, a grain mill and various other equipment purchases. Award winning beers have been made from extract and they have also been made from all grain. However, the big advantage of all grain is controlling the process. With an all grain batch we can control the mash temps, length of mash, water chemistry etc. This is simply not something you can do in brewing an extract batch.
 
However, the real reason many of us have made the transition from extract to all grain is not the cost, nor is it for an improved taste, it is because of the process.

Partially disagree. While award winning brews have been made with extract, I would argue that you have so much less creative control that it does limit you and this impacts on taste if you try to vary styles. Extract quality, color, and flavor can change unannounced.
 
why does no one factor in the cost of hops or yeast?

I'm starting to not include yeast cost in my brewing budget. Simple answer is I'm starting to wash my yeast. So, once I can harvest one yeast cake of a strain, I won't need to purchase that yeast for a good amount of time (and many batches of brew)... I have three 1 quart jars chilling in the fridge from the first harvest. Once it's all settled (already pulled the yeast off the trub yesterday) I might put those into smaller jars. With how many generations you can get from each harvest (gen 1) I think that the three jars (might go to four) will last a long time. Figuring if I take the initial three harvested jars of yeast and only harvest two from each of them, then two from each of those, etc. I'll get about 45 batches out of the harvest. That's a savings of about $360 (at today's prices) in yeast from just one (originally) yeast cake. I have a second brew that I'll be harvesting the cake from, and am thinking of harvesting another when it's ready. I might go for one more strain, to cover all the styles I'm brewing right now. I might need to give some of the washed yeast away to brew buddies.

So, as you can see, yeast becomes almost a $0 item if you harvest/wash it. Start growing your own hops, and there's another place to save on cost. Both can be done for either extract, PM or AG brewing too.

BTW, if you buy from the right source, you can get really good prices on hop pellets. Prices under $1.25/ounce (the LHBS I visit is getting $3/ounce on pellet hops right now). Even less when you buy more (that's for one 4 ounce package, discounts get better the more you buy of a kind)...
 
I'm starting to not include yeast cost in my brewing budget. Simple answer is I'm starting to wash my yeast. So, once I can harvest one yeast cake of a strain, I won't need to purchase that yeast for a good amount of time (and many batches of brew)... I have three 1 quart jars chilling in the fridge from the first harvest. Once it's all settled (already pulled the yeast off the trub yesterday) I might put those into smaller jars. With how many generations you can get from each harvest (gen 1) I think that the three jars (might go to four) will last a long time. Figuring if I take the initial three harvested jars of yeast and only harvest two from each of them, then two from each of those, etc. I'll get about 45 batches out of the harvest. That's a savings of about $360 (at today's prices) in yeast from just one (originally) yeast cake. I have a second brew that I'll be harvesting the cake from, and am thinking of harvesting another when it's ready. I might go for one more strain, to cover all the styles I'm brewing right now. I might need to give some of the washed yeast away to brew buddies.

So, as you can see, yeast becomes almost a $0 item if you harvest/wash it. Start growing your own hops, and there's another place to save on cost. Both can be done for either extract, PM or AG brewing too.

BTW, if you buy from the right source, you can get really good prices on hop pellets. Prices under $1.25/ounce (the LHBS I visit is getting $3/ounce on pellet hops right now). Even less when you buy more (that's for one 4 ounce package, discounts get better the more you buy of a kind)...

Well I store my yeast and grow my own hops and it takes at least a couple of years to recover the start-up cost and that is if you consider your personal time to be "free"...
 
ingredients, yes.
Ed's Haus Pale Ale:
8# of Pale 2 Row: $13
2# Vienna : $4
1/2# Crystal: $1

Total for the grain: $18.

Extract:
7# DME: $21
2# Vienna: $4
1/2# Crystal : $1

Total for extract: $26

But, for AG, you'll need a bigger brew pot, MLT of some kind (igloo cooler and parts)

So in the long run, AG isn't cheaper at the start. But after a few years it will be cheaper.

Until you build a sculpture.

B

haha! I figure once I've saved equal to half of my equipment cost, I upgrade something! Kegerator, larger kettle for full boil partial-mash, and now a basic all-grain setup.
 
Ingredients may be cheaper per batch, but since I went all-grain I got bit by the bug much harder and ended up building a keezer (don't even want to think about how much $$$ I've put into that at this point), Barley Crusher grain mill (well worth the money to enable bulk grain buys, thus saving a little $$$... not to mention it's fun to use), plus the larger brew kettle (~$110), propane burner (~$50), and MLT build (~$50). You can probably find/build things cheaper than I did, but I get excited and jump the gun sometimes.

At the end of the day going all-grain is the best decision I've ever made for my brewing hobby. No doubt you can make incredible extract beers, but all I know is MY all-grain beers have been coming out far better than my extract beers ever did and I have more fun doing it.

Leave the bean counting to the accountants and just brew it.
 
Well I store my yeast and grow my own hops and it takes at least a couple of years to recover the start-up cost and that is if you consider your personal time to be "free"...

Cost to wash yeast is virtually nil... I got several jars from family, plus I've been saving quart jars as I empty them (of food)... Picking up some small mason jars, to add to what I already have, won't be that much.

Initial setup costs for the trellis for hop growing is a flexible item. I'm still thinking about growing one, or two, hops this year. Planters (since I'm renting) are under $30 each. Then the support for the bines should run under $20 more (per plant). If I was planting in the ground, it would just be the cost to make the support setup... Considering how expensive hops are where I am (especially for cones) I could recoup my costs in under two years of brewing (if I do the max I can, which I probably will) with them.
 
I don't necessarily agree with this. Between cleaning and Mash/sparge times (which is 2 hrs by itself), AG batches are easily 2 hours longer than Extract batches. Boil and chill times are the same, but nearly everything else is additive.

I clean while I brew. My mash tun is cleaned while I boil. My boil pot has to be cleaned regardless of the method.

It literally adds only 30-60 minutes to my brew day if I mash. You do not need to mash for an hour. Recirculation helps with faster conversion...you can heat your sparge water just as you start your mash (or have it ready)...there are lots of tricks to a quick brew day.

I actually save time doing all-grain in my basement with my high output burners vs. doing extract on the stovetop. Also, regardless of whether or not you mash, you still want your grains to steep for a time to extract all the color and flavor.

The quickest possible brew day would be to do an all-extract (no steeping grains) batch with a short boil (30 minutes or so) and counter-flow or plate chilling. I'd imagine you could get a batch done in an hour with this method, cleaning and all.
 
I clean while I brew...

It literally adds only 30-60 minutes to my brew day if I mash. You do not need to mash for an hour. Recirculation helps with faster conversion...you can heat your sparge water just as you start your mash (or have it ready)...there are lots of tricks to a quick brew day.
QUOTE]
+1
Since nobody has mentioned it I will. Single Vessel no Sparge Brewing (Brew in a Bag) isn't really more expensive from an equipment point of view. A kettle that is roughly twice the size of your target batch size is the biggest expense. No MLT or HLT. I use a keggle and a march pump with my set up, but I don't have to. Getting to the point with my setup that I'm at now did take an investment of DIY time, experimentation, and wasted dollars. It was better I spent it when I did as I recently took 3 nieces into my home to raise. I had 3 boys already. Six kids can get expensive, and attorney's that deal in family law are expensive also.

I have only one vessel to clean and a bucket I had my grain in that I put my spent grain bag in. So my mash time is the only "extra" time I have invested. I plan to be busy the whole day regardless. I hate rushing around on a brew day, which is another reason I like Single Vessel no Sparge Brewing.
 
I clean while I brew...

It literally adds only 30-60 minutes to my brew day if I mash. You do not need to mash for an hour. Recirculation helps with faster conversion...you can heat your sparge water just as you start your mash (or have it ready)...there are lots of tricks to a quick brew day.
+1
Since nobody has mentioned it I will. Single Vessel no Sparge Brewing (Brew in a Bag) isn't really more expensive from an equipment point of view. A kettle that is roughly twice the size of your target batch size is the biggest expense. No MLT or HLT. I use a keggle and a march pump with my set up, but I don't have to. Getting to the point with my setup that I'm at now did take an investment of DIY time, experimentation, and wasted dollars. It was better I spent it when I did as I recently took 3 nieces into my home to raise. I had 3 boys already. Six kids can get expensive, and attorney's that deal in family law are expensive also.

I have only one vessel to clean and a bucket I had my grain in that I put my spent grain bag in. So my mash time is the only "extra" time I have invested. I plan to be busy the whole day regardless. I hate rushing around on a brew day, which is another reason I like Single Vessel no Sparge Brewing.

+1 BIAB is an easy relaxing way to go all grain
 
Since I've been buying bulk grains and hops, and reusing yeast.. it's gotten REALLY cheap for me going AG.

I can brew 5 gallons of a hoppy IPA for about 12$. Not to mention my beer is out of this world better than any extract brew I made.
 
Did no one else notice this thread was two years old until someone resurrected it three days ago? lol

Anyway, Deathbrewer is entirely correct. The whole "AG takes tons more time" argument is completely false. I can brew an AG recipe in 4 hours easily. Everything but the chiller and boil pot can be cleaned while you boil. So at the end you spend 10 minutes cleaning after all is done.

If you steep for 20-30 minutes that is only half hour shorter than a traditional mash. The rest of the process is nearly the same.

Lastly, if people are going to calculate their time into a hobby as a cost, then it's not a hobby to them. It's a chore. I don't know about you all, but I don't really care how long any of my hobbies take. I do them because I enjoy them.
 
I just look at it as "Brew Day" and know that I'll be doing that, and things related, for the majority of the day. I don't plan on doing anything after brewing, since I'm never quite sure how much time it will take (still dialing in the process, and my gear)...

You are correct, of course, that boil times are the same no matter what process you use. Typically, you get your mash/sparge water up to temp faster than when you steep specialty grains (in my experience at least). You can easily heat up the mash and sparge water at the same time, so there's no difference there. Plus, you can maintain the sparge water while mashing (temp wise) so that it's ready when you are. Combine worts and boil away... :D

For home brewing, it shouldn't be a chore, or task you "have to do". If it's gotten to that point for you, it's time to stop (at least for a while)... It should be fun. If nothing else, 'sample' some of the previous batches that you still have some left of. If you don't have any left, then you waited too long before having another brew day. :mug:
 
Cost to wash yeast is virtually nil... I got several jars from family, plus I've been saving quart jars as I empty them (of food)... Picking up some small mason jars, to add to what I already have, won't be that much.

Initial setup costs for the trellis for hop growing is a flexible item. I'm still thinking about growing one, or two, hops this year. Planters (since I'm renting) are under $30 each. Then the support for the bines should run under $20 more (per plant). If I was planting in the ground, it would just be the cost to make the support setup... Considering how expensive hops are where I am (especially for cones) I could recoup my costs in under two years of brewing (if I do the max I can, which I probably will) with them.

And how long do you plan to store this "washed yeast". I won't get into the debate here, but I simply do not support the usage of "distilled water" or similar storage techniques for any considerable length of time. If you only have one house year, you can make it work... anywho... it's a discussion for a different thread...

As for the hops:

Yet you won't get any really usable quantity of hops for 2-3 years in all likelihood, especially in pots or on short trellises. The cost of rhizomes, fertilizer, water, soil, posts, wire, oast/drier, etc etc are almost certainly non-zero even under "best case" scenarios. And at today's hop prices, it makes little sense to attempt to grow them as a way of "saving yourself some money". Actually, if that's your goal, I would label it "total folly".
 
And how long do you plan to store this "washed yeast". I won't get into the debate here, but I simply do not support the usage of "distilled water" or similar storage techniques for any considerable length of time. If you only have one house year, you can make it work... anywho... it's a discussion for a different thread...

I figure that I'll plan to make sure to brew a batch with a generation within 6-9 months. Right now, I have three jars of washed yeast (one strain)... Not liking how one of the jars is separating out, since it has most of the trub in the bottom. I might sacrifice that one and just use the other two. So, I'll use one of those harvests in the next brew, harvesting/washing that yeast cake when done, saving two jars. I'll use those for the batches with that yeast for the next ~6 months, before going back to the second gen 2 jar. Brewing a batch from that, to reset it's clock. I'll plan to make sure to not let any single generation jar go more than 6 months between harvest/wash time and when it's used.

Compound that by the three strains I either have harvested, or will shortly, and that's going to be many, many, batches of beer. I very well could go more than a year before needing to purchase yeast again.

As for the hops:

Yet you won't get any really usable quantity of hops for 2-3 years in all likelihood, especially in pots or on short trellises. The cost of rhizomes, fertilizer, water, soil, posts, wire, oast/drier, etc etc are almost certainly non-zero even under "best case" scenarios. And at today's hop prices, it makes little sense to attempt to grow them as a way of "saving yourself some money". Actually, if that's your goal, I would label it "total folly".

I was looking to grow hops more for flavor/aroma hops so that I could reduce how much I need to purchase. Plus, I like the thought of using more either local, self sustained ingredients. I probably won't start growing hops for another year or more, so it's not really an issue. For the support system for the hops, I can build that up pretty cheap, with it being height adjustable. I have time to plan that out too. Once the support setup is built, I expect it to last for many, many years. So you can actually space the cost over those multiple years.

For drying, you can do that without spending all that much money. Simple as using AB's setup for making jerky can be adapted to drying hops.

Before I started buying hops, the cost of growing my own could easily be recovered when compared with buying them (LHBS is selling hops at $3/ounce when you don't buy a pound at a time, pound bags range from the low $30's on up). Figuring that I use, right now, about 2 ounces of hops per batch, my cost to setup for growing hops would be offset within 8-10 batches (if growing in the ground).

I will be planning on growing hops once I have a place of my own, and a garden. I'll simply allocate a section for hops, so it won't be an issue. Fertilizer cost won't really matter, since it can be factored into the entire cost of the garden.

BTW, most people that like to grow their own veggies don't do it to save money. Rather you get a much superior product to what you get in most stores (unless the farm is right there, and the produce for sale was harvested that day, or within a few days). I'm even considering putting in a hot house for growing veggies and hops when I get a place (provided I have enough land)...
 
I was looking to grow hops more for flavor/aroma hops so that I could reduce how much I need to purchase. Plus, I like the thought of using more either local, self sustained ingredients. I probably won't start growing hops for another year or more, so it's not really an issue. For the support system for the hops, I can build that up pretty cheap, with it being height adjustable. I have time to plan that out too. Once the support setup is built, I expect it to last for many, many years. So you can actually space the cost over those multiple years.

For drying, you can do that without spending all that much money. Simple as using AB's setup for making jerky can be adapted to drying hops.

Before I started buying hops, the cost of growing my own could easily be recovered when compared with buying them (LHBS is selling hops at $3/ounce when you don't buy a pound at a time, pound bags range from the low $30's on up). Figuring that I use, right now, about 2 ounces of hops per batch, my cost to setup for growing hops would be offset within 8-10 batches (if growing in the ground).

I will be planning on growing hops once I have a place of my own, and a garden. I'll simply allocate a section for hops, so it won't be an issue. Fertilizer cost won't really matter, since it can be factored into the entire cost of the garden.

BTW, most people that like to grow their own veggies don't do it to save money. Rather you get a much superior product to what you get in most stores (unless the farm is right there, and the produce for sale was harvested that day, or within a few days). I'm even considering putting in a hot house for growing veggies and hops when I get a place (provided I have enough land)...

You keep waving your hand at each and every item and saying "figure it into some other cost", or "pretty cheap", or yadda yadda.

Costs are real and you will never produce the hops in your garden for less than what you buy them in pelletized form at today's current prices.

I am just warning you. It is time consuming and all of those other costs are real, not just hand-waving. Do not grow your own hops if what you are planning to achieve is a cheaper source of hops. Do it because you're curious or have the interest, but cost savings are really not there to be had all things considered. I am really not trying to be condescending, it just seems you have not looked into the hop growing process in any real detail.
 
Randar, as I mentioned, not really looking at growing hops as being a cheaper item. Looking at it as being a way to add something that I made/grew to my mix. Looking to get better quality hops without spending a small fortune every trip to the LHBS, or worrying IF they will have what I want.

It will be at least a couple of years before I'm in a position to grow any, probably. So who knows what the price of hops will be like by that time.

I look at this the same way as I look at growing tomatoes... Sure, you can get them for decent prices (sometimes) but unless you're buying them close to the actual harvest time (and they are local) they almost always taste like poor shadows of what they could be. Growing your own will always give you a better fruit. Plus, you have the option of selecting which varieties you wish to grow. Not being limited to what the grocery store wants to carry, or can make more money on.

BTW, it really does sound like you're trying to piss on the idea of growing your own hops.

I don't know what YOU spend on hops, from the LHBS, but they are NOT cheap where I am. If I need any that I don't have already (from my last bulk purchase) then they are $3/ounce (more if you count fuel costs to get to the LHBS and back again)... If I can grow one hop strain that I use for flavor/aroma across a wide enough section of my brews, who's to say that's not a good idea? Who's to say that in two, or three, years the cost of buying hops won't triple? Who's to say that using natural fertilizers won't produce a superior hop compared with the commercially produced product? If I can handle dedicating the square footage to growing hops, in my yard/garden (when I have one) why not do it? If I can [eventually] grow enough hops for most of my flavor/aroma adds each season/year, why not do it? Maybe I'll be able to grow enough to handle the bittering hops too.

If someone posted that they wanted to grow their own grains, and process it themselves, and had enough land to produce enough for what they wanted to do, why try to tell them not to since it will cost more than buying it (or where/how you buy it)? We're NOT doing this as a business here, so WE don't need to over analyze ever little expense...
 
Holy Sh!t GoldDiggie, you spend $30 a pound on hops??? That is a ridiculous price! Have you not heard of www.hopsdirect.com ? You can get 3 pounds of hops for that $30. And if you don't want that much, try any of the other online retailers... Brewmasterswarehouse.com and Farmhousesupply.com have great deals on hops. You're getting majorly hosed with those prices at your LHBS.

And to Randar, he did say he was not entirely planning on growing them to save money. His argument on gardening makes perfect sense. To some people it's about freshness, not just saving.
 
Randar, as I mentioned, not really looking at growing hops as being a cheaper item. Looking at it as being a way to add something that I made/grew to my mix. Looking to get better quality hops without spending a small fortune every trip to the LHBS, or worrying IF they will have what I want.

It will be at least a couple of years before I'm in a position to grow any, probably. So who knows what the price of hops will be like by that time.

I look at this the same way as I look at growing tomatoes... Sure, you can get them for decent prices (sometimes) but unless you're buying them close to the actual harvest time (and they are local) they almost always taste like poor shadows of what they could be. Growing your own will always give you a better fruit. Plus, you have the option of selecting which varieties you wish to grow. Not being limited to what the grocery store wants to carry, or can make more money on.

BTW, it really does sound like you're trying to piss on the idea of growing your own hops.

I don't know what YOU spend on hops, from the LHBS, but they are NOT cheap where I am. If I need any that I don't have already (from my last bulk purchase) then they are $3/ounce (more if you count fuel costs to get to the LHBS and back again)... If I can grow one hop strain that I use for flavor/aroma across a wide enough section of my brews, who's to say that's not a good idea? Who's to say that in two, or three, years the cost of buying hops won't triple? Who's to say that using natural fertilizers won't produce a superior hop compared with the commercially produced product? If I can handle dedicating the square footage to growing hops, in my yard/garden (when I have one) why not do it? If I can [eventually] grow enough hops for most of my flavor/aroma adds each season/year, why not do it? Maybe I'll be able to grow enough to handle the bittering hops too.

If someone posted that they wanted to grow their own grains, and process it themselves, and had enough land to produce enough for what they wanted to do, why try to tell them not to since it will cost more than buying it (or where/how you buy it)? We're NOT doing this as a business here, so WE don't need to over analyze ever little expense...


The whole thread was about saving money by going all grain and the yeast and hops questions about saving money there as well. So yes, it is about the cost differential IN THIS CONTEXT. If you're into the hop growing idea because it interests you, then go for it. That's the reason to do it. I have 14 hop plants and have been growing for 4 years, so I know a little something about it. It ain't gonna save you any money and it's gonna take a crapload of time. As a hobby, it's great. As a money saver, it's pointless.

I am not pissing on the idea. I am simply pointing out that you keep choosing to ignore the actual costs that will be involved and imply that it will be essentially "free". All I am saying is that it is not free, and it is almost certain to be more expensive than buying hops by the pound, as others have noted. That argument that it will save you from running to the LHBS to buy hops you don't have on hand is a non sequitur. If you use a variety the quantity you will use from a home grown hop, it would have been in your bulk purchase order, so stop comparing apples to oranges (again).
 
Just to highlight my point, just 3 days ago:

Start growing your own hops, and there's another place to save on cost. Both can be done for either extract, PM or AG brewing too.

BTW, if you buy from the right source, you can get really good prices on hop pellets. Prices under $1.25/ounce (the LHBS I visit is getting $3/ounce on pellet hops right now). Even less when you buy more (that's for one 4 ounce package, discounts get better the more you buy of a kind)...


and then just minutes ago:

Randar, as I mentioned, not really looking at growing hops as being a cheaper item.

and

If I need any that I don't have already (from my last bulk purchase) then they are $3/ounce (more if you count fuel costs to get to the LHBS and back again)...

You're going in circles.
 
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