All-Grain Beginner problems (carbonating, efficiency, boiloff)

[BrewCrewKevin]

So I've got 3 batches of all-grain under my belt, and a few things keep sort of bugging me here.

1) My first beer still isn't carbonated, after conditioning for a month. I put 4.5 oz of corn sugar into the fermenter and gently stirred before bottling. When we did extract, I always used 5 oz, but we had a few geysers (most likely from bottling too early, but still wanted to decrease because they were darker beers). 2 possible causes? I've already tried moving some bottles to a warmer place, thought that might wake my yeast up.
a) I did transfer to a secondary, and I've seen a lot of people advocating against that recently. Is it possible I got too much yeast out of it when I transferred?
b) I'm looking into my H2O chemistry this week. Is there anything specific that could hinder my carbonation?
c) I do have some corny kegs and CO2, but I haven't bought the regulator/fittings/hoses etc. yet. If I bought those, can I dump all my flat bottles into a sanitized keg and force carb it? (I know I can... but should I?)

2) Onto this weekends batch: Boil-off and efficiency. Just want to double check my numbers here. Seems pretty extreme, and I'm having trouble dialing in. My est. OG (beersmith) was 1.047. After a double batch sparge, I had 6 gallons in the BK, which I thought would be about right. My Pre-boil gravity was only 1.035. Added 8 oz of DME which brought me up to 1.039 (not target, but closer). After about 30 mins of boiling, I was all the way down to 4.25 gallons! Topped it off with 1.5 gallons of water (slowly to maintain boil). Turned down the propane a bit. In the end, I ended up with about 4.5 gallons at 1.045.
a) Is it normal to boil off 3 gallons in just 60 mins?? Seems pretty extreme to me.
b) My mash efficiency was only 60%... wondering different ways I can improve that. Again, is there anything specific I should look at as far as water chemistry is concerned? FYI this was a 75 min mash at 148 for a cream ale. Held temp well (149-146 throughout the 75 mins).

3) water chemistry. I know I already mentioned the specifics. The first 3 batches I'm just using unfiltered tap water. Just wanted to get an idea of my efficiencies and the process before dialing in water chemistry. Is there anything specific that could be contributing to these couple of issues? Is it necessary for me to filter or add campden tablets or anything that is standard before getting my water report?

Thanks in advance! I'm loving the all-grain process, just hoping it yields some good beer soon!

 

[tootal]

Did you check your final gravity before bottling? Just curious if the yeast stayed active.

If you are using city tap water then I would get a RV carbon filter and use it for your brewing water.

Next I would check your PH. As you mash your PH should drop so you would want around 5.8 to start. Many bash ph strips but if you follow their instructions they seem pretty consistant to me.

It's hard to do but it's best to change one thing at a time. I would start with water and it that doesn't help then move on to the next option.

As far as 3 gallons in 60 minutes, that seems a little high. We boil off 3 gallons in 90 minutes and boil as best we can keeping it just under boil over.

 

[BrewCrewKevin]

I did think 3 was high, but I guess it could be. I am boiling 5-6 gallons in a large (15gal?) kettle with a lot of surface area, so it will NOT boil over. I can get a really nice flame coming out of my burner and boil pretty quickly, so I'd imagine it's pretty vigorous.

I did check my pH. Should have mentioned that. Towards the end of the mash, it was right around 5.0-5.2 it looked like. I do have 5.2 stabilizer that I used on my first couple batches, but left it out of this one to see what my natural pH would be without it.

I'll have to get a filter. I see that in quite a few posts, so I really should have that at least. Maybe I'll use a campden tablet too, but that's only for Chlorine, which only really affects taste, right?

 

[opticflashback]

I dont have very many all grain batches under my belt, but I will throw in my 2 cents.

I agree with others on the page that 3 gallons in 60 minutes is unusually high. Was this a hard/rapid boil? What was the outside temperature? I keep my BK just above a boil, nothing too hard or fast.

Rule of thumb is about 1 gallon loss per hour. However in cold temperature, this could increase.

Colder temperature = Lower humidity
Lower humidity = More boil loss

 

[doby]

as far as the undercarb/no carb, what temp are the bottles stored at? should be 70F for 2 or 3 weeks, 3 weeks is better.

I doubt its the secondary I do from time to time to free up a fermenter or dry hop and no problem. Thats plenty of corn sugar for pale or amber ale I use 3.9 in a 5.5 gal batch much more and they over carb to what you would expect soda or champain to be.

Did you bottle with hot bottles right out of the dishwasher? That could possiblly kill of yeast

You must be boiling way hard I make 6.5 gal pre boil batches in a 15 G BK and boil off about a gal in 60 min and thats a good rolling boil

 

[BrewCrewKevin]

Thanks for the responses!

I dont have very many all grain batches under my belt, but I will throw in my 2 cents.

I agree with others on the page that 3 gallons in 60 minutes is unusually high. Was this a hard/rapid boil? What was the outside temperature? I keep my BK just above a boil, nothing too hard or fast.

Rule of thumb is about 1 gallon loss per hour. However in cold temperature, this could increase.

Colder temperature = Lower humidity
Lower humidity = More boil loss

Freezing cold. I'm in Wisconsin, and it was like single digits. I just got this propane burner with my AG equipment, and I think i'm underestimating it. I also ran out of propane on my 3rd batch.. so I think I'm still cranking it way too high.

as far as the undercarb/no carb, what temp are the bottles stored at? should be 70F for 2 or 3 weeks, 3 weeks is better.

I doubt its the secondary I do from time to time to free up a fermenter or dry hop and no problem. Thats plenty of corn sugar for pale or amber ale I use 3.9 in a 5.5 gal batch much more and they over carb to what you would expect soda or champain to be.

Did you bottle with hot bottles right out of the dishwasher? That could possiblly kill of yeast

You must be boiling way hard I make 6.5 gal pre boil batches in a 15 G BK and boil off about a gal in 60 min and thats a good rolling boil

The carbing is more of my worry at this point. The hot bottles is definitely a possibility- I think I did bottle into hot bottles. I didn't think of that. The more recent batch I did was starsan and vinator, so I'll see if that one carbs better.

The bottles have been stored in my basement (60-65F) for... 5 weeks now (i think?). Last week, when we cracked 2 open and found how flat they were, I put them in the back room close to the furnace duct where they got up to 70-75 for a couple of days hoping to wake the yeast up.

I didn't think the secondary would cause problems either. I almost always do a secondary just to give it one more step to clear it. Especially with these all-grain batches, I get so much hot break in there, I feel like I want to get that stuff out after high-krausen.

 

[n61870]

Here's $0.03

For bottle priming I go to northern brewer's calculator http://www.northernbrewer.com/priming-sugar-calculator/ and fill in the blanks. I have always used table sugar (sucrose) and as you can see their calculator allows you to use just about anything you can think of in the right amounts. Next, I pour the amount they give me into a small saucepan with a cup of water and boil for 10 min. I set the pan aside to let it cool. Usually by the time Im done sanitizing bottles and have everything setup, the sugar water has cooled (if not set it in an ice bath, fridge, freezer, etc). Then while Im transferring to the bottling bucket I dump the sugar water in. I store the bottled beer in my fermenting fridge at the same temp I fermented the beer at(68F) for at least 2 weeks. If possible you should keep your freshly bottled beers in the same environment as the wort fermented in for at least a week maybe even 2 or 3. I have never had a problem using the above method.

There are 10 million ways to mash, I used to have the same problem then I changed one thing and my gravity is usually dead on or even above. I adjusted the flow out of the mash tun to about 4ish gal per hour. I adjust to more than a trickle but not much. It takes me 30-45 min to get the first runnings. Also, If you are using the stainless steel mesh tube either ditch it for a copper tube manifold or support the mesh tube by wrapping some stainless steel wire (can pick it up at hobby stores) around a pencil to make a coil the same length as your filter. Then put it inside to support it, otherwise the grain will crush it and will filter through close to the drain location. You can even put a T fitting in your tun with the bottom of the T connected to the drain and wrap the stainless filter (supported with a wire coil inside of course) from one T end to the other making a half circle.

I think your boil off figure is way to high. I run my propane burner wide open and get about a gallon or a little more burn off an hour. But I would double check it, fill your pot with 6 gallons of water, boil for an hour and record the results. If they are consistent then use that figure in your recipe. In Beersmith you can put that figure into your profile and it will automatically adjust your water requirements as needed.

 

[BrewCrewKevin]

Here's $0.03

Thanks. I appreciate it.

I've done probably 15 -20 extract batches, and that's exactly what I've always done. Dissolve my corn sugar (used to use 5oz, these were 4.25) in a saucepan, let it sit while i get everything set up, then dump it in, give it a little swirl and start bottling. I've never had a problem until now either...

I warmed them up a bit, shook each bottle to try to get the yeast suspended again (not sure if it does anything but thought I'd try), and I'll try another one this weekend and see what it's like.

My tun is a rectangular cooler. The manifold is a full CPVC assembly with like 6 1/2" bars along the bottom. They have slots sawed into them every 3/4-1" or so. I have not had any problems with stuck mash or anything like that. The first batch we did was totally explainable- I did the research into all-grain and bought the equipment. My buddy who doesn't know much about it was helping me that day. When I set it up for sparging and ran inside to grab something else, he opened the valve wide open and drained it all out in like 5 seconds. I came out and he was like "DONE! I sped it up for you." lol thanks buddy.

This most recent one I think I took about 20 minutes for my first runnings, which I got about 2.5 gallons or so. Then sparged with 3.5 (which might be a bit much, maybe should have double batched). I had it at mashout temp of 168, drained it into the tun, let it sit for 10 mins or so, then sparged out. Again slowly, taking probably 20-30 minutes or so. Still was only at like 1.035 (expected preboil was 1.045 or so). But I used my refract to get a reading towards the end, and it was down to like 1.009, so I must have gotten about all of it. So I then added 8oz DME as well. It ended up about right in the end, but those first runnings I didn't get much out of. I didn't want to have to put the DME in....

 

[planetscott]

c) I do have some corny kegs and CO2, but I haven't bought the regulator/fittings/hoses etc. yet. If I bought those, can I dump all my flat bottles into a sanitized keg and force carb it? (I know I can... but should I?)

No. Pouring bottles of beer in to a corny keg will introduce oxygen, which will give it off flavors.

Be patient and maybe they will eventually carbonate.

 

[tehnick]

I always rack to secondary to clear up the beer a bit, but my most recent batch didn't carbonate well. My process was the same, other than letting the beer sit in secondary for longer than I normally do. I had gotten sick with the flu, so bottling went on the back burner. I think too much yeast fell out of suspension while in secondary. It was also a high gravity winter beer so I know pitched plenty of yeast. I always make a starter regardless of target OG. I let it sit a month and it's lightly carbonated which pissed me off enough to get a kegging setup because who likes dumping gallons of beer down the sink? I'll let it sit longer to be safe, but definitely a lesson learned. Before long I'll get a beer gun or CP filler for filling a few bottles here and there to share with others.

I'd work on getting a regulator, hoses, and fittings. It's a lot better knowing I can force the CO2 into solution now rather than waiting for it to condition. It's nice being able to drink it with a quicker turnaround, but it's easy to blast through it quicker. But that's OK, since you can shave up to 3-4 weeks off of the total process. That means you can brew more beer and drink more beer. That's the point, right?

Cheers!

 

[helibrewer]

You are batch sparging so the rate of lauter is immaterial, there is no problem with a wide open drain when batch sparging.

You just need to make sure you are giving it a REALLY good stir between sparges.

Go to Braukaiser.com and read about increasing your efficiency. You will need to take First Wort gravity readings in the MLT at the end of your mash and compare them to his chart.

Then there is a procedure for determining how much you are leaving behind after lautering...these are the 2 things that drive your efficiency....you need to figure out if your problem is Conversion or Lautering in order to fix it.