All-Grain BDSA - Tastes "smoky", not fruity

[BetterBeerThroughScience]

Hi everyone! I'm reasonably new to brewing (5 batches under my belt, 2 extract, 1 partial mash, and two all-grains.)

My first IPA turned out very nice, straight from the kit.
My molasses porter turned out a little off, as I used 12 Oz. of blackstrap molasses, which was far, far too strong a flavor!
The third was a very, very high ABV "IPA", finishing up at around 25% ABV, with almost no discernable bitterness and some light hoppy flavors, notwithstanding the pound of hops I used for it. (Mostly dry hopping/flameout)
The fourth was the batch I'm posting about right now. A Belgian (Dark?) Strong Ale.

Boil in a bag

The grain bill was:
12# Belgian 2-Row Pale Malt
1# Aromatic Malt
8Oz. Torrified Barley
8Oz. Crystal 40L Malt
8Oz. Special B Malt

Hops
1Oz. Chinook @ 30min
1Oz. Citra @ 5min
1Oz. Falconer's Flight @ 5min

Additional:
Irish moss, 15 min
1 pound of Belgian dark candi syrup
2.5 pounds of cane sugar (I wanted to make a golden Belgian, but I didn't have amber syrup at my LHBS, so I thought I'd make a mix of dark and light)

Yeast:
WLP545 Belgian Strong Ale Yeast

Mashed at 149-151F for 70 minutes. At this point, I didn't know to lift the bag out when heating it and apparently burned the bottom of my batch, just like I had the time before with my massive beer.

I left it in my basement for two weeks in primary and moved it over just yesterday to secondary.

It went from 1.090 gravity to 0.995 in 2 weeks. I tasted a little (and shared some with friends) when I moved it over. It tasted a little smoky (not a ton), which I attribute to the burned bag. I tasted a little bit of astringency, probably from the grain which I couldn't remove before the boil since the bag had broken. But I didn't taste any fruity flavors at all. Do those just develop after prolonged secondary? Or only manifest fully after carbonation?

Thanks!

I thought this would better go in the All Grain forum, but should it fit better with Beginner's, please feel free to move it.

 

[jmccraney]

So let's start with the obvious:
1. don't burn your grain
2. don't boil your grain.

Both of those can lead to off flavors if you don't know what you're doing, but it never should happen in a basic infusion mash anyway. I trust you have that under control now, so no need to beat a dead horse.

There are lots of places to find lists of common off flavors and their causes which might help in the future. Here's an example:
http://www.northernbrewer.com/connect/2011/08/common-off-flavors/

Smokiness is tied to phenols. Usual causes include phenols produced from wild yeast and bacteria (infection) or chlorine (usu. chloramine in tap water) binding with yeast derived phenols to produce chlorophenols.

One cause that you rarely see on these lists is high mash pH (though you will find it tied to astringency as well). A high mash pH can strip phenols from grain husks, especially at higher temperature like in the boil, and is most common during over sparging.

If you're new to all-grain and don't know your water report or haven't read up on mash chemistry (especially pH) please do so immediately. I had this problem myself and dumped three batches before I discovered my problem. A.J. deLange has a simple primer on this site which is convenient:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/brewing-water-chemistry-primer-198460/
I'm sure there is a section on water in How to Brew, and there's also a new book entirely on the subject by John Palmer and Colin Kaminski.

I can't say exactly what your issue is, but hopefully this gives you some hints.

 

[Gus_13]

A few questions to help determine your answer. While the scorched bag may play some flavors up in there I'm wondering the below.

What was your fermentation temps?

Did you kill the boil before adding in the sugar? This can cause scorching and off flavors as well.

As far as the fruity flavors, 545 is a fantastic yeast. I've used it a couple times myself. It's not HUGE on the fruity notes but they are there. It gives more of the spicy phenols similar to 530 that will mellow out with time. I brewed a BDSA with 530 and it took a year almost for a odd livery flavor/aroma to mellow out into a fantastic beer. 545 didn't take quite as long but it did develop some great flavors. I have one I bottled over a month ago sitting now. Popped one last week and it wasn't carbed yet and still had some aging to do. Some of these Belgian strains benefit from long aging under pressure and in the bottle. Some maybe even 6 months or more. I haven't picked up smokiness from 545 when I have used it.

 

[BetterBeerThroughScience]

Thanks, both of you!

Gus_13, it seems like you're on the money. I was fermenting at 60-65F. Apparently this temperature isn't high enough to produce those fruity esters I was expecting in the quantities I'd hoped for. But - I'm hoping there's at least a little more once it's carbonated and bottled. If I want to make a proper Belgian with those flavors, I'll have to have it over 70 at least and have done my homework - I can't expect the yeast to do all the work for me.

Regarding the sugar, I added it at flameout, after the boiling stopped. Next time, I can wait until it's cooler.

That being said, I guess I'll just have to wait a few weeks and see how it tastes!

JMcCraney, thanks for the link and advice. I've gotten one all-grain batch one so far for which I didn't burn the bag (I hadn't known that you add the grain after getting to the target temperature, not before), and it has turned out quite nicely. Should I run into any such off-flavors, I'll have that excellent resource. Fortunately, neither the astringency nor the smoky flavor are very pronounced and I hope they mellow out a bit. I don't think *I* tasted smoky, but the four people I shared the unfinished beer with (none of whom are brewers) said they tasted smoky, so perhaps I'm just not getting it.

I appreciate you all - a very thoughtful and compassionate welcome to the community. Many thanks

 

[Gus_13]

Thanks, both of you!

Gus_13, it seems like you're on the money. I was fermenting at 60-65F. Apparently this temperature isn't high enough to produce those fruity esters I was expecting in the quantities I'd hoped for. But - I'm hoping there's at least a little more once it's carbonated and bottled. If I want to make a proper Belgian with those flavors, I'll have to have it over 70 at least and have done my homework - I can't expect the yeast to do all the work for me.

Regarding the sugar, I added it at flameout, after the boiling stopped. Next time, I can wait until it's cooler.

That being said, I guess I'll just have to wait a few weeks and see how it tastes!


I appreciate you all - a very thoughtful and compassionate welcome to the community. Many thanks

I usually pitch around 66-68 with my Belgian strains. Hold it close to there for 2 days then let it free rise to 72 for about 4 days. After that I turn it loose to finish. Never really had one get over about 76ish but most all of mine have had the great fruity notes.

Sugar at flame out is perfect no need to wait to let it cool IMO. I usually add it right there too. Especially the Belgian Candi syrups. I love that stuff!


Welcome to the community and brew more beer! haha