All Grain Advantages?

[Heineken]

For me, I went all-grain for the control. With all-grain, you have control over the entire process. The rewards of brewing a great all-grain are great because its your thing. With extract, someone else has done most of the work.

 

[DD2000GT]

My switch to AG was to cure a "off" house flavor I had with almost all of my brews. I was a 10 year extract/steeping guy amd recent mini-mash. The cure for my off taste was full boils. I have an electric stove so I could only get about 2 1/2 gallons boiling. Mini-mash opened my eyes to how easy mashing your own grains really is, and the requirement for full boil just sealed the deal to switch to AG. Cost me about $100 to get up and running with my home made AG setup. I have almost recouped that cost after 5 batches.

Yes, price per batch is significant, and it does require more time than extract - not really more complicated, just more time and a bit more effort. However - the big bonus was the beer (after all - this is why we do this right?). My first AG was a Kolsch and it was AWESOME! No off taste and much cleaner. Seriously, I would buy that beer.

That is why I an AG now and sold on the process. If you still want to stay extract - that is great - but I recommend full boils. Your beer will benefit from this.

 

[EdWort]

My switch to AG was to cure a "off" house flavor I had with almost all of my brews. I was a 10 year extract/steeping guy amd recent mini-mash. The cure for my off taste was full boils. I have an electric stove so I could only get about 2 1/2 gallons boiling. Mini-mash opened my eyes to how easy mashing your own grains really is, and the requirement for full boil just sealed the deal to switch to AG. Cost me about $100 to get up and running with my home made AG setup. I have almost recouped that cost after 5 batches.

Yes, price per batch is significant, and it does require more time than extract - not really more complicated, just more time and a bit more effort. However - the big bonus was the beer (after all - this is why we do this right?). My first AG was a Kolsch and it was AWESOME! No off taste and much cleaner. Seriously, I would buy that beer.

That is why I an AG now and sold on the process. If you still want to stay extract - that is great - but I recommend full boils. Your beer will benefit from this.

+1 I had the same experience. I did full boil extract brew over a year ago and it turned out very nice. It did not have that "extract twang" to it. I also used RO water for the extract part.

 

[wilserbrewer]

... but really it just comes down to brewing extracts/partials until I build my rig.

Don't for a minute let all the beautiful pictures of brew rigs sway you to think you need a rig to do all grain. You can all grain brew W/ a large boil kettle, a cooler tun, and a bucket to catch the first runnings. A two or four quart plastic pitcher will move your sparge water quite easily in under a minute.

Denny gots no rig!
http://hbd.org/clubs/cascade/public_html/dennybrew/equip1.jpg

dennybrew

 

[Laughing_Gnome_Invisible]

Don't for a minute let all the beautiful pictures of brew rigs sway you to think you need a rig to do all grain. You can all grain brew W/ a large boil kettle, a cooler tun, and a bucket to catch the first runnings. A two or four quart plastic pitcher will move your sparge water quite easily in under a minute.

Denny gots no rig!
http://hbd.org/clubs/cascade/public_html/dennybrew/equip1.jpg

dennybrew

+1 on that. I wasted 2 or 3 months not going AG because I thought I needed fancy gear.

 

[RCCOLA]

+1 on that. I wasted 2 or 3 months not going AG because I thought I needed fancy gear.

+100 Dennybrew style MLT rocks.

Toilet braid-$5
28qt cooler-$15 or $0 if you already have a spare
mini-keg bung-$1
6ft. 3/8 tubing-$2
3/8 inline valve-$2
turkey friar w/ 32qt. pot on sale @ sutherlands- $30
grains milled @ lhbs-$0
Total:$55 or $40 if you have a cooler

I did end up buying a grain mill to take advantage of bulk grain pricing but it isn't absolutely necessary.

 

[KillerKellers]

Don't for a minute let all the beautiful pictures of brew rigs sway you to think you need a rig to do all grain. You can all grain brew W/ a large boil kettle, a cooler tun, and a bucket to catch the first runnings. A two or four quart plastic pitcher will move your sparge water quite easily in under a minute.

Denny gots no rig!
http://hbd.org/clubs/cascade/public_html/dennybrew/equip1.jpg

dennybrew

Damn you are convincing me..

 

[Bob]

All-grain brewing is, as the kids today say, da shizzle.

I've got a nice wet blanket here to throw on the enthusiasm, however.

Before you go dropping coin and effort on an AG setup - regardless how Frankenstein - take a look at your fermentation. If you're going to spend money, time and effort, spend it on fermentation first. What goes in to your beer means nothing if you just dump in some yeast and stick the fermenter in a corner.* Yeast are your only living ally in the brewing process. Your actions in managing them influence their performance.

If you don't have the means of growing your own yeast starters, get it. Controlling the health and amount of yeast pitched is crucial.

If you don't have the equipment to control your ferment temperature, get it. There are lots of methods, from wet t-shirts to digitally-controlled freezers.

Your beers will improve dramatically if you learn about managing fermentation and implement solid procedures. Once you get that under control, go ahead and learn about mashing.

That's what I'd do - hell, that's what I did. You'll thank me for it.

Cheers!

Bob

* Frankly, I'm never less than stunned at brewers who agonize over what grains and hops they use, their water chemistry, etc., and then just dump in a sachet of yeast and let the bucket sit in the basement. [sigh]

 

[golfguy819]

Damn you are convincing me..

com'on, you know you want to....don't you love peer pressure??

 

[Mutilated1]

Several Advantages I can think of.

1. Its much less expensive

2. Grain is generally but not always fresher than Extract

3. Much more flexibility with ingredients and recipes

4. Most importantly, and maybe this is my personal preference but I think a lot of people will probably agree, All Grain is just a lot more fun and satisfying

Its like the difference between cooking a great meal from scratch with fresh ingredients and opening a box of hamburger helper

 

[Laughing_Gnome_Invisible]

All-grain brewing is, as the kids today say, da shizzle.

I've got a nice wet blanket here to throw on the enthusiasm, however.

Before you go dropping coin and effort on an AG setup - regardless how Frankenstein - take a look at your fermentation. If you're going to spend money, time and effort, spend it on fermentation first. What goes in to your beer means nothing if you just dump in some yeast and stick the fermenter in a corner.* Yeast are your only living ally in the brewing process. Your actions in managing them influence their performance.

If you don't have the means of growing your own yeast starters, get it. Controlling the health and amount of yeast pitched is crucial.

If you don't have the equipment to control your ferment temperature, get it. There are lots of methods, from wet t-shirts to digitally-controlled freezers.

Your beers will improve dramatically if you learn about managing fermentation and implement solid procedures. Once you get that under control, go ahead and learn about mashing.

That's what I'd do - hell, that's what I did. You'll thank me for it.

Cheers!

Bob

* Frankly, I'm never less than stunned at brewers who agonize over what grains and hops they use, their water chemistry, etc., and then just dump in a sachet of yeast and let the bucket sit in the basement. [sigh]

Have you been spying on this here noob? I just got my fridge for fermentaion chamber conversion a couple of weeks ago. I'm pretty sure that my fermentation has led to more inconsistency than any other aspect of my brewing.

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

I agree with the fermentation control and yeast management as a crucial first step. After that I am on the other side of the fence of many people here. I think cobbling together a system is a waste of money. I literally wasted ~$1,300 on stuff I no longer use or upgraded out of in the first 4 years of brewing. I would save until you can have a cohesive system that will really work.

Upgrade your fermentation situation. Then plan and make the jump to AG with a well planned system. It doesn't have to be fancy, just well planned.

For example, I was helping fellow member BillyVegas with this same thought last week:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/all-grain-rims-herms-setup-new-box-125310/

I think $1000 is the minimum amount you should have saved before jumping into AG. Its just my opinion, but I bet you would thank me if you waited.

 

[BeerPressure]

What?! you dont need to drop a grand on all grain.

 

[CharlosCarlies]

I think cobbling together a system is a waste of money. I literally wasted ~$1,300 on stuff I no longer use or upgraded out of in the first 4 years of brewing. I would save until you can have a cohesive system that will really work.

Agreed 100%. I have so much extra stuff that I've only used once or twice and "upgraded" bc it didn't fit into the system I envisioned. I'll eventually get around to selling some of it, but you never get all your money back.

 

[samc]

+1 Temperature control is a major factor in great beer without the off flavors.

+1 I also have a load of extra crap that I cobbled together. Really need to sell those to free up some room. Even my first almost finished rig is somewhat obsolete in my mind before I have even got it 100% going. HOWEVER, it is hard to figure out what will work for you if you have not used any of the stuff so some form of experimentation is helpful. Wish someone had set up a Rent A Rig brewing company!

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

I just posted this:

http://blogs.homebrewtalk.com/Boerderij_Kabouter/Boerderij_Kabouters_Suggested_AG_Starter_Rig/

It explains some of my reasoning. And trust me... that cobbled together system cost WAY more than you think it did. I tried to put together a super cheap workable system for a friend of mine and found out it would actually cost over $700 for a super cheap cooler mod system that he would have been pissed to own by his third brew. Little fittings and cheap coolers add up crazy fast. Most of us just never write these cost down.

 

[spiny_norman]

my LHBS convinced me not to jump into all grain....for now...

He won me over with his arguments about all the extra equipment and the lack of consistency. Also, a pretty damn good beer can be made with quality extract and steeping grains.

Sill, I'm a geek, so I'll probably dip my toe into the all grain mash tun eventually.

For me, I've never done extract before. I was interested in getting into the hobby for a while and I watched an excellent 8 part video on YouTube (search for "Chris Knight all grain"), then researched how to build a mash tun from a cooler and just jumped in. My first batch, surprisingly, came out really well and was a big hit. Easier than I expected too: you don't need a science degree to make good beer doing all grain.

Definitely recommend viewing that YouTube series as an excellent primer...

 

[Bob]

Have you been spying on this here noob? I just got my fridge for fermentation chamber conversion a couple of weeks ago. I'm pretty sure that my fermentation has led to more inconsistency than any other aspect of my brewing.

Bing! Give that Gnome a cigar!

Imagine your yeast colony as a vacuum cleaner. The yeast's job is to attenuate the bitter wort to a level you find satisfactory. The vacuum cleaner's job is to suck up crud until all the crud is gone.

If you just let the Roomba go on its own, it'll work at random until its batteries run out. Will it suck up all the crud? Theoretically; you'll have to check it periodically and do a final spot-check to make sure. And even then you'll probably have to hit spots it's missed. It'll take an hour to do one small room, too.

Now, contrast that with a Dyson upright. Yeah, you have to push it about, direct it toward the crud. But you'll ensure every square inch of the floor is clean, having watched and directed where it goes. And you'll be done in fifteen minutes.

'owzat for a metaphor?

Bob

 

[Darwin18]

As has been said before a $100 - $150's for a cooler mash tun, a turkery fryer, immersion chiller and a propane tank (for the turkey fryer) is all you need. If you're willing to shop around or DIY you could probably do it for cheaper.

I second the fermentation control. It doesn't matter how well your recipe is or how great your process is if you just let the carboy sit at ambient temperature. There are many techniques both expensive and cheap that you can find on the site to help you.

You do not need to drop a grand on an all grain system! If you're very serious about brewing and want a system then go for it but if you're interested in learning the processes and just want to see what its all about than go the simpler route.

 

[weirdboy]

I tried to put together a super cheap workable system for a friend of mine and found out it would actually cost over $700 for a super cheap cooler mod system that he would have been pissed to own by his third brew. Little fittings and cheap coolers add up crazy fast. Most of us just never write these cost down.

I'm sorry, but this is BS. You DO NOT need a huge rig to brew AG. You don't need a propane burner. Hell, you don't even need a cooler or dedicated MLT. I have done full boil 5 gallon AG batches on my stovetop reusing my old 5-gallon pot from my extract days, a 7.5-gallon turkey fryer pot that I think cost $30, a paint strainer bag, and a 25' wort chiller.

If you're going to do larger batches, 10+ gallons then you get into needing dedicated vessels to hold liquids, pumps or at least some kind of gravity rig to get things flowing between vessels, etc. But for 5 gallon batches, you just don't need all the crap.

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

Diffing opinions. I brewed for a long time for a lot of batches on a crappy system and I can tell you it would have been cheaper for me to start buyinig toward a good, well designed system from the start that to waste the amount of money I did. I didn't say you have to take my advice, but you will be amazed at the cost of your so called cheap system. Not to mention the headaches and screw ups that ensue from having a cobbled together system. You can say that you brew perfectly with your gobbled system, but we all now that even with the best planning and a really nice system, it is still difficult to hit all your numbers dead on. A cheap or poorly thought out system just increases the chance for a screw up and makes the brewday less relaxing and fun.

I would like to see a parts list for everything a brewer needs to go AG for $150. If you can show me that, I will shut up. Also, I don't see the point in brewing 5g's AG. Same time for 10g, twice the beer. Minimal upgrade. In addition, most people can't boil 6-7 gallons on a home stove. I know I can't even with the tips given here.

 

[mithion]

9g Stainless Boiling Kettle... $165
10g Cooler for Mashing... $45
Valve and false bottom for mash tun... $20
Propane burner... $75
5g plastic bucket to hold sparge water... $15
Propane tank... $50
Brewing the best stuff on earth... priceless!

Jk! I think all grain is a bit more expensive than $100 to get the right equipment, but I also think you can do it much much cheaper than $1000 .

As with all previous post, I agree that all grain will produce much better beer that will taste fresher. The control aspect of it is also very nice. I have two pieces of advice for people wanting to make the switch. First, be prepared to invest. As you can see above, this is not a 50 or $100 upgrade to your current extract gear. Be prepared to dish out a few hundred. Second, and probably the most useful, find someone who brews all grain (possibly through your LHBS, you can always find a beer geek there that will be willing to help a fellow homebrewer) and go brew with them to see the entire process. Ask questions about all the steps and then the transition will be much smoother.

Cheers!

 

[cellardoor]

I just posted this:

http://blogs.homebrewtalk.com/Boerderij_Kabouter/Boerderij_Kabouters_Suggested_AG_Starter_Rig/

It explains some of my reasoning. And trust me... that cobbled together system cost WAY more than you think it did. I tried to put together a super cheap workable system for a friend of mine and found out it would actually cost over $700 for a super cheap cooler mod system that he would have been pissed to own by his third brew. Little fittings and cheap coolers add up crazy fast. Most of us just never write these cost down.

While I agree that one should have at LEAST $1000 to build a brewing rig that they would not want to upgrade after their 3rd batch there is a big difference between building a rig and gathering the supplies to go all grain. I spent less than $150 to go all-grain. That is for EVERYTHING that is needed beyond basic extract equipment. That even includes the $40 I spent on your old IC. It also includes the manifold, propane tanks, burners, everything additional I spent to make the jump.

I would love to have a brewing rig but my space constraints and apartment living have forced me to mash in my kitchen and boil outside so a rig is not feasible. Lets say I do want to upgrade my current setup to a nice rig someday almost everything I can use (The keggle, burner, propane tank).

So to say to someone who is contemplating going AG you'll need $1000 or you won't be happy, is in my mind scaring them beyond reason with an unusually high start-up costs. They can spend $150-250 to obtain the basic cooler, keggle, burner equipment and make fine beer and use the majority in a future upgrade. Unless they plan to use stainless march pumps and Blichmans in the future like your rig uses, I doubt they will be upset with the basics needed to go all grain.

Let's face it, when we start this hobby the majority of us don't know how much time and money it will eventually take from us. If I heard before I started that in order to make good AG beer, I'd need to drop a grand on equipment, that would have turned me off big time. I think the majority of us brewers are very happy with our hobbled together system that didn't cost a grand and we still make damn fine beer from it.

 

[CharlosCarlies]

I'm sorry, but this is BS. You DO NOT need a huge rig to brew AG. You don't need a propane burner. Hell, you don't even need a cooler or dedicated MLT. I have done full boil 5 gallon AG batches on my stovetop reusing my old 5-gallon pot from my extract days, a 7.5-gallon turkey fryer pot that I think cost $30, a paint strainer bag, and a 25' wort chiller.

Yall are both right. Some people are happy with K.I.S.S. and others, like myself, are constantly looking for the better/best way to do things because I just can't help myself. I started out really simple because I was a little overwhelmed w/ the process, but as I got some batches under my belt I found more and more annoying things about my system/process that I just couldn't stand and wanted to improve upon.

Can you brew great beer on the cheap? Yes of course, I don't think he was saying otherwise. I believe he was just putting out a warning that going super cheap at the beginning isn't always the best method for everyone.

 

[cellardoor]

I would like to see a parts list for everything a brewer needs to go AG for $150. If you can show me that, I will shut up. Also, I don't see the point in brewing 5g's AG. Same time for 10g, twice the beer. Minimal upgrade. In addition, most people can't boil 6-7 gallons on a home stove. I know I can't even with the tips given here.

This is my system:

Keggle (From CL, we can debate the ethics all day long on here) - $20
SQ-14 Burner - $50
5 gal rubbermaid cooler (I had one laying around so it was free but $30 if you had to buy one) - $0
empty propane tank (From CL) - $5
MLT braid system (FlyGuy's design) - $25
Used IC - $40
Total $140

$170 if one would have to buy the MLT

That is my total cost. My keggle is not that modified or have a drain on it as I currently use my Autosiphon to empty the keggle. It isn't the best method but it does work and I'm happy with it until I upgrade to put a ball valve on it. When I do I would have spent $0 extra than if I had put one on from the start so no money was wasted. Everything else like the autosiphon, hoses, my extract pot used as my HLT was equipment I used to brew extract.

Also even though I bought my IC from you when I was still using extract I included it as an all-grain cost. If it hadn't then I would have spent $100 in additional equipment to go AG and I am happy with my system and when I upgrade to another system I would use everything again with the exception of my 5 gal MLT which I would upgrade to a 10 gal. In my case it did not matter since my MLT was build out of a cooler I had laying around.

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

Also even though I bought my IC from you when I was still using extract I included it as an all-grain cost. If it hadn't then I would have spent $100 in additional equipment to go AG and I am happy with my system and when I upgrade to another system I would use everything again with the exception of my 5 gal MLT which I would upgrade to a 10 gal. In my case it did not matter since my MLT was build out of a cooler I had laying around.

I guess this is the sentiment that I lost in my posts. You obviously have thought about all your purchases and made good moves with equipment that you can build on. I am doing the same.

I have not spent or finished my system. I have it designed and I can purchase toward it. This way I do not waste a ton of money like I was doing before. My system will cost a lot, but it is not all at once. With the system I listed, you can start brewing on "the dream system" after you have spent about $250, but it won't be as nice as it is when finished.

The main point is to think before buying so you don't by junk that gets thrown away.

Good to hear the IC is still running strong! Warhawk pride

 

[wilserbrewer]

I've got a nice wet blanket here to throw on the enthusiasm.....,
If you don't have the means of growing your own yeast starters, get it. Controlling the health and amount of yeast pitched is crucial.

If you don't have the equipment to control your ferment temperature, get it. There are lots of methods, from wet t-shirts to digitally-controlled freezers.

Your beers will improve dramatically if you learn about managing fermentation and implement solid procedures. Once you get that under control, go ahead and learn about mashing.

Cheers!

Bob

[sigh]

Bob, I strongly agree w/ fermentation temp contol and taking good care of your yeast!

However, I strongly disagree that a newb needs to be concerned about growing his own yeast cultures.

A newb can certainly make a nice beer by pitching an inexpensive dry yeast, No?

And please, dry blankets only.

Cheers,
Mike

 

[weirdboy]

I would like to see a parts list for everything a brewer needs to go AG for $150. If you can show me that, I will shut up. Also, I don't see the point in brewing 5g's AG. Same time for 10g, twice the beer. Minimal upgrade. In addition, most people can't boil 6-7 gallons on a home stove. I know I can't even with the tips given here.

I already gave you a parts list for less than $150. Here is exactly what you need to upgrade from stovetop extract to AG:

7.5 gallon turkey fryer pot $30
5 gallon paint strainer bag $2 (you can get 2 for this price at HD/Lowes/etc.)
A good thermometer for monitoring your mash temps. I use a thermapen. $75
But you can definitely go cheaper.
25' wort chiller $50
2 binder clips (thanks DeathBrewer for this idea) $0.50
Re-using my 5-gallon pot from extract partial boils $0

Just because YOU don't see the point in doing 5 gallon batches doesn't mean other people don't see the advantages, chief of which is you eliminate the need for all those fittings, extra vessels, tubing, etc. that is necessary due to weight and size differences between 5- and 10-gallon batches. Also, there's a lot of people, myself included, who live somewhere that don't have space for a huge HERMS/RIMS/etc. system. A 10 gallon batch is simply out of the question. Keeping it simple and on the stovetop eliminates a lot of unnecessary stuff that you really, really truly do not need to do AG. To do a full boils on the stovetop, I split my pot over two burners and crank them both to the max to get it going.

I find your tone elitist and exclusionary. It's like you are actively trying to discourage people from trying AG unless they are willing to go straight from partial boil extract batches to full boil 10 gallon batches on a dedicated HERMS system. That's completely ridiculous. Sure, it's nice to have, but to say it is necessary is out of line.

 

[Captain_Bigelow]

I already gave you a parts list for less than $150. Here is exactly what you need to upgrade from stovetop extract to AG:

7.5 gallon turkey fryer pot $30
5 gallon paint strainer bag $2 (you can get 2 for this price at HD/Lowes/etc.)
A good thermometer for monitoring your mash temps. I use a thermapen. $75
But you can definitely go cheaper.
25' wort chiller $50
2 binder clips (thanks DeathBrewer for this idea) $0.50
Re-using my 5-gallon pot from extract partial boils $0

Just because YOU don't see the point in doing 5 gallon batches doesn't mean other people don't see the advantages, chief of which is you eliminate the need for all those fittings, extra vessels, tubing, etc. that is necessary due to weight and size differences between 5- and 10-gallon batches. Also, there's a lot of people, myself included, who live somewhere that don't have space for a huge HERMS/RIMS/etc. system. A 10 gallon batch is simply out of the question. Keeping it simple and on the stovetop eliminates a lot of unnecessary stuff that you really, really truly do not need to do AG. To do a full boils on the stovetop, I split my pot over two burners and crank them both to the max to get it going.

I find your tone elitist and exclusionary. It's like you are actively trying to discourage people from trying AG unless they are willing to go straight from partial boil extract batches to full boil 10 gallon batches on a dedicated HERMS system. That's completely ridiculous. Sure, it's nice to have, but to say it is necessary is out of line.

You forgot a mash tun. Mine worked out to be about $80. $50 for a 10 gallon rubbermaid cooler and $30 for hardware. Sure you can buy a smaller or cheaper cooler, but I figure buy good and buy once.

 

[passedpawn]

I think $1000 is the minimum amount you should have saved before jumping into AG. Its just my opinion, but I bet you would thank me if you waited.

I strongly disagree 100%. You may not believe this, but I get so much enjoyment out of my ghetto setup. And I make some pretty f'in good beer, if I don't say so myself.

It is important to know the problems before you buy the solution. So, I would ALWAYS recommend that the budding brewer spend as little as possible and brew as much as possible. Learn the process, find the problems with it, then spend $$. That is my opinion.